[QUOTE=Axznma;49315508]Typical, wants statistics, gets an overwhelming list of them that don't fit his narrative and promptly dismisses, even when some of them come directly from the legal authorities on the subject.
What a surprise.[/QUOTE]
Ive seen it this entire thread. They demand that the burden of truth is on you, you provide it, they make baseless counterclaims, you refute them, they dismiss everything, and this entire time [I]they[/I] aren't providing a damn thing other than "its weird" or "its an old law change it" or "you don't [I]need[/I] it" or simply "you poor stupid americans i hope one day you see the light"
this thread is incredible
australians are brain washed lol
anti-gunners fuckin #btfo
[img]http://footage.framepool.com/shotimg/qf/664502750-napalm-attack-highlights1511-bombarding-vietnam-war.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49305806]that's the point. nobody is going around cutting people up, until they do.[/QUOTE]
Dude, there are loads of knife attacks in china
[QUOTE=Billy-Bobfred;49316482]Dude, there are loads of knife attacks in china[/QUOTE]
if they make it so you need an ID and have to be 18+ to purchase knives, the violence will surely end
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
we should also ban assault blades
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
and search anyone thats wearing ASSAULT CLOTHES in public
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
because lets be real, who the fuck needs to wear cargo pants?? you don't need all those pockets, you're only carrying your phone and wallet!
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
man and camouflage??? only police and military should be wearing camouflage!!
[QUOTE=Leon;49316507]if they make it so you need an ID and have to be 18+ to purchase knives, the violence will surely end
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
we should also ban assault blades
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
and search anyone thats wearing ASSAULT CLOTHES in public
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
because lets be real, who the fuck needs to wear cargo pants?? you don't need all those pockets, you're only carrying your phone and wallet!
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
man and camouflage??? only police and military should be wearing camouflage!![/QUOTE]
Don't forget high capacity pockets man, the lint you can hide in those. *shudders*
we need to ban banes pants so no one can be as evil as him
[img]https://hqrock.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/rises-ny-batman-vs-bane-wall-street-battle-05.jpg[/img]
who the hell needs integrated kneepads!?! do you plan on taking a knee while you commit genocide??
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
come on guys ITS 2015
IT IS THE CURRENT YEAR
OPEN YOUR EYES! CIVILIANS DON'T NEED MILITARY-STYLE ASSAULT CLOTHING! YOU'RE POWERLESS AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT ANYWAYS!!
For anyone anti gun, this is a serious question, would you also support banning bows and slings? They're also weapons that were used for killing people.
lets ignore these "domestic terrorists" that won against the federal government without firing a shot this never happened young jimothy
[img]http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/US/AP_nevada_ranch_showdow_guard_jt_140419_16x9_992.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;49316322]Ive seen it this entire thread. They demand that the burden of truth is on you, you provide it, they make baseless counterclaims, you refute them, they dismiss everything, and this entire time [I]they[/I] aren't providing a damn thing other than "its weird" or "its an old law change it" or "you don't [I]need[/I] it" or simply "you poor stupid americans i hope one day you see the light"[/QUOTE]
Australians are afraid of guns and don't have as much of an understanding of them. It's like how a woman will never know how painful it is to get kicked square in the nuts because she doesn't have a pair of balls.
Id prefer not to be neutered thanks.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;49316322]Ive seen it this entire thread. They demand that the burden of truth is on you, you provide it, they make baseless counterclaims, you refute them, they dismiss everything, and this entire time [I]they[/I] aren't providing a damn thing other than "its weird" or "its an old law change it" or "you don't [I]need[/I] it" or simply "you poor stupid americans i hope one day you see the light"[/QUOTE]
I see it in every thread about firearms on Facepunch, of which I've read just about every one. It's all an emotional appeal instead of rational logic, something I find the standard with hard conservatives and the majority of liberals. But that's par for the course; as far as I'm concerned the entire gun debate is over and finalized.
They wanted the numbers and they got them, that wasn't enough so they then appealed to the legal authorities on it, which then gave them the same tune. In failing to factually prove fuck all they ignore the numbers and now rely entirely on theory crafting, appeals to emotion and invalid comparison to countries that define their law differently, all of which are worthless to any discussion of substance and are to be dismissed. Across the board the facts have proven guns are not a problem, and no opinion of some random European is going to change that; they are irrelevant, as is the gun debate.
I personally feel I no longer need to prove anything to anyone about guns, especially when the overwhelming number of statistics are ignored anyway, which is supremely ironic given the shit these same kind of people lay on conservatives for "ignoring" climate change statistics. But again, that's just par.
Guns aren't going away and there will never be any ban of substance on them because the government isn't going to risk national dissolution, even if they are incompetent they're not suicidal. All I can do now is wait for the next big wave of over inflated garbage to become the new hot button; it was Iraq almost two decades ago, it was the banking industry a decade ago, it was health care reform five years ago and now it's guns.
Coincidentally, for all the shit flinging and numerous blog posts about every one of those previous subjects, not much changed after. Probably because whining accomplishes very little, and if there's anything the powers that be are good at it's not accomplishing much of anything, but as long as everyone feels good then we can continue to walk in circles. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312176]
almost all break-ins are not in cold blood - nobody wants to kill you. you're not important.
they just want your stuff. [/QUOTE]
I always suggest to people who think like this to buy yourself one of [URL="http://www.crimescene.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=55&zenid=2pbvd31jvscvqoacqgpg7cmd64"]these[/URL] it will at least help Cops having to use one of theirs.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312295]fleeing as quietly as you can or hiding or simply just letting them steal stuff puts you at less of a risk than ambushing them with a loaded weapon. that's just common sense.[/QUOTE]
"When the gunman realizes that nobody else is armed, he will lay down his weapons and turn himself in, that's human nature." - Dianne Feinstein
Wow, good thing the gunman did that [URL="http://images.f169bbs.com/content/2015-11/gruesome-photo-of-paris-attack-aftermath-shocking-video-of-the-moment-shooting-started-inside-theatre-27840.jpg"]here![/URL] (Very NSFW)
[QUOTE=squids_eye;49315026]Where do you think the black market gets its guns from? Almost all illegal guns start their lives as legal guns until they are stolen or sold in a straw purchase. If less legal guns are being produced for civilian use, less illegal guns get the opportunity to exist in circulation.[/QUOTE]
Great idea for a country that's not connected to one of the biggest illegal gun cartel sellers in the world whos spends god knows what to pump illegal weapons into the U.S. to give to people to sit on the street and go "Ey, ju wanna by a piece mane?" I've met people like you constantly and they're always screaming to legalize heroine or cocaine to bankrupt the Mexican cartels, then I say "How about legalizing those illegal guns to bankrupt them?" and the response is the same. "FUCK NO GUNS KILL PEOPLE!" Because you know, heroine and cocaine has never killed anyone.
Blaming guns for killing people is just like saying a spoon made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
[QUOTE=Axznma;49315508]Typical, wants statistics, gets an overwhelming list of them that don't fit his narrative and promptly dismisses, even when some of them come directly from the legal authorities on the subject.
What a surprise.[/QUOTE]
lol this thread is fucking incredible. I say a million times guns aren't the cause they are one factor of many. No one fucking listens. I say I agree with his sources, but say [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation"]CORRELATION is not CAUSATION[/URL]. Since its fucking not like holy shit I'm pretty sure we had a thread about it not too long ago as well. So fuck off and stop taking my post out of context I'm sick of having to continuously repeat myself because its too hard to read a fucking post.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49318690]lol this thread is fucking incredible. I say a million times guns aren't the cause they are one factor of many. No one fucking listens. I say I agree with his sources, but say [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation"]CORRELATION is not CAUSATION[/URL]. Since its fucking not like holy shit I'm pretty sure we had a thread about it not too long ago as well. So fuck off and stop taking my post out of context I'm sick of having to continuously repeat myself because its too hard to read a fucking post.[/QUOTE]
You asked for numbers and you got numbers. Nobody is saying more guns = less crime, we are saying gun ownership is going up and crime with firearms is steadily decreasing. You cried this was impossible, got statistics dropped on your ass. Once again, correlation =/= causation, but you seem to have this belief gun violence is rising when it has been proven to you it is not. Gun ownership increasing indicates the two values aren't very closely related at all, just how we cannot argue more guns = less crime, you cannot argue less guns = less crime as there's literally nothing that can drive a nail home on either viewpoint. All we can gather from the data is there's obviously factors out there contributing more toward crime rates than firearms are, which is why we think it's silly when people attack firearms out of emotion.
An analogy would be taking notice of our national debt crisis and saying we should cut all military spending. Without any context, it looks like we spend a ton on the military and gives the illusion we drop most of our cash into it. However, our broken social security system leeches almost twice as much money as our military spending, that's not even counting healthcare related aspects.
Your heart is in the right place, but you are attacking an aspect of things that would actually change little to nothing, based on the statistics. The fact of the matter is, you choose guns because it's the only thing you can fathom a solution for: take them away. It isn't so easy to formulate a solution for our mental health system, or the way our media makes any mass shooter a superstar for a month or so after they do it, so you avoid those topics even though they're closer to the root of the problem than the firearms themselves. You're prioritizing finding something to blame over actually looking for a legitimate solution. No different from a delusional parent who would rather blame violence in video games for their violent kid and call it a day instead of actually trying to find out what is making their child grow up to be a psychopath.
[QUOTE=Leon;49316478]this thread is incredible
australians are brain washed lol
anti-gunners fuckin #btfo[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;49316772]Australians are afraid of guns and don't have as much of an understanding of them. It's like how a woman will never know how painful it is to get kicked square in the nuts because she doesn't have a pair of balls.
Id prefer not to be neutered thanks.[/QUOTE]
Lmao, got to love how you guys are generalizing an entire country of people because one of us was generalizing gun owners.
And don't give me that shit of "Ohhh we're all afraid of guns and don't understand them at all" I was an enlisted soldier I'm well versed on how to properly handle a gun (The F88SA2 and SLP 9mm MK 3 to be specific). But even I agree that our gun laws worked, because we're a island it's easier for our government to control what get's in and what doesn't, and because of that the prices to buy guns off the "black market" is so high no petty criminal has the money to.
You can point to isolated cases of crazy people making makeshift firearms and the occasional shooting but there's no doubt in my mind that the 96 gun buy back and stricter gun laws had a positive effect on gun crime here.
That being said I don't think similar gun laws would work in America because you're not a fucking island.
[QUOTE=Paxton;49314226]0.001% of the population per year, there is no problem. Don't play the dead people card with me bud I lost 3 cousins in separate school shootings and I'm speaking at city console meetings to get some teachers in some schools armed.[/quote]
Clearly adding more guns into the hands of teachers is the solution, right?
Your idiocy will get many more of your cousins killed. If you honestly think your vigilante wild-west bullshit will help us, well, your brain has gone out the fucking window. Let me posit this: lets say your barbaric fantasy world comes to fruition and we arm teachers in schools. What then? Somebody walks in with a loaded gun and starts shooting. The teachers then start shooting back (if they can successfully identify the shooter, at which point several people will be dead anyways which is why your bullshit "measures" do nothing because it isn't preventative.) and suddenly a gun battle erupts in the school. Any veteran can tell you that stray bullets are just as deadly as aimed bullets. All it would take is for one of those teachers to miss and you have a ricocheting bullet on your hands, possible bee-lining for another student. If it is a large school, teachers may even have difficulty coordinating. What if they mistake another teacher as the shooter because said teacher is now armed? What if the police or security personnel mistake them for the shooter?
Look, I'm all for having trained security in our schools if that is what it takes, but your vigilante militia bullshit of equipping civilians who are unprepared for such a scenario (even with training, you just can't be mentally prepared for a situation like that) is going to get more people killed. Bottom line. You can talk all you want about not adding more gun laws and I will consider it, but this crap I will not concede and it shows that you aren't even living in reality.
[quote=dumbass]Tell me where are these terrorists getting these guns? BLACK MARKET. If you want to vent fear, vent it at evil people in the world. What there needs to be is IMMIGRATION CONTROL for people that come in here, not gun control.[/quote0
Oh boy, now we have gone here. Of course we did. Nutty ass white people who are desparately afraid of the EVIL MINORITIES who must be contained. Its funny how often I hear this. Nobody ever draws attention to the growth of private militias or terror attacks like Oklahoma City because those are just [I]mentally delusional people.[/I] After all, normal white people [I]can't possibly be violent criminals.[/I] It must be the dirty immigrants!
I bet you want to vote for Donald fucking Trump too.
[quote=dumbass][B]There are over 20,000 laws on the books already for guns and you're still going MOAR MR. GOVERNMENT MOAR LAWS![/B][/quote]
And here we go, this statistic again. [URL="http://www.brookings.edu/es/urban/publications/gunbook4.pdf"]It's proven, certified bullshit.[/URL] The instant I hear this from somebody, I know they are uninformed. There are not even remotely close to that number of active gun laws and, more importantly, the number of laws is irrelevant. It says nothing of how strict or lenient said laws are and, more importantly, many of those are state laws, not federally mandated.
[quote=dumbass]Because CLEARLY criminals obey the already 20,000 on the books! 20,000 laws, 35,000 dead per year (take out suicides you're looking at 11,000) so that's 11,000. So clearly terrorists are going to obey those 20,000 laws. People like you and your feelings are doing nothing but disarming innocent people and getting people killed.[/quote]
I am not disarming innocent people. I have already stated, again and again, that I have no intention to revoke anyone's guns. I understand that is both impossible and not very helpful. The fact that you are blaming [I]me[/I] for getting people killed is a perfect demonstration of how up your own ass you truly are.
[URL="http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/joe-scarborough/msnbcs-joe-scarborough-tiny-fraction-crimes-commit/"]Many firearm-related crimes are committed with illegally gained weapons.[/URL] I have already acknowledged this and outlined steps to combat this. However, there is still a portion of that group that [I]did[/I] acquire their weapons legally. The very reason I stated we should implement safety tests and proper, government issued licensing is to keep weapons from being traded around illegally. Note that the source I gave stated that 37% of those individuals acquired their weapons from friends and family. That isn't strictly legal in most states, but unfortunately it isn't enforced because without properly licensing, [I]we have no means of enforcement.[/I] For example, if I let a 14 year old drive my car, that is a crime. He can be pulled over by the cops and arrested for not having a license even if he was driving just fine. That is because many 14 year olds do not have the proper skills to drive an automobile, so even if that particular person does, it doesn't apply to everyone. If it worked the way buying a gun does now in many states, anyone could buy a car and drive without a license and without a safety test. [I]Anyone.[/I]
So let me ask you, do you support stripping the legislation for automobile licensing? Let's just do a simple background check and one-off purchase that is cleared by the car dealership and not the government. Is that what you want? because that is exactly how firearms are treated right now in most of America.
[quote=dumbass]There's more gun laws than people who are killed in homicides with guns! Why were there so little shootings in the 50's 60's and 70's? Because you didn't need a card to own a firearm, when Clinton had one of his dumbass moments and signed that into law, guess what. Gun violence soared. But that's not Clinton's fault, it is the fault of a man who was shot with Reagen and was paralyzed from the waist down and he proposed that people need a card to own a gun, Clinton just felt bad and signed it in to not look like an asshole. So just because he's paralyzed he punished the entire nation, and you call people like me selfish?[/quote]
Your own sources contradict you, dumbass. According to the sources you presented, gun violence has been on the decline since the Clinton administration. If anything, that may make an argument that the gun regulation has worked to some degree. Your assertion that America was somehow "safer" because we had people on the street roaming around trying to emulate Chuck fucking Connors is just laughable. as I said, your sources literally contradict that idea and show that America was [I]even less safe at that time.[/I]
And yes, you are selfish, and if you can't see that than you are beyond help. I'm not asking you to give up your guns or to stop shooting guns or anything like that. I can appreciate private gun ownership, but right now it is far, [I]far[/I] to easy to buy a weapon.
[quote=dumbass]The reason school shootings have increased is because in the 50's they were not gun free zones, in fact there were even classes teaching children how to shoot rifles.[/quote]
If you could prove that to me with statistical evidence, be my guest, but right now all of that is meaningless dribble. If you seriously believe the so-called "mentally disturbed" individuals who commit school shootings would somehow be deterred by gun owners in the school, well, you are wrong. These people know they will die for what they do. They are well aware of this eventuality. Not only that, but if they are not in a rational state of mind, why would they make the rational decision to avoid a non-gun free zone?
The reason school shootings have increased seems to be a lack of proper mental treatment in this country, which is once again a whole other issue that needs its own overhauling and discussion. Guns are not the cause of this violence, nor are they the solution, but guns certainly enable "mass shootings". You cannot possibly hope to stop all violence, and I certainly haven't deluded myself into thinking we can. But we can hopefully filter out those who are planning such things through committed safety regulation and training.
And as I said, I have no qualms with having armed security in schools. Every school I have attended has had armed security and they actually promote a good, safe environment. If anything, I encourage it. But students and teachers should not be the ones enforcing these things. Hell, students should [I]definitely[/I] not be enforcing things in the school. Teenagers are not mentally equipped to have guns, plain and simple. You've (hopefully) been to highschool and you have witnessed first hand how people at that age can intimidate and are eager to use violence and easy solutions. Adding guns into the hands of already unstable, awkward teens is a recipe for greater disaster. And teachers are hardly perfect too. Neither group is prepared for that commitment because enforcing safety is not meant to be their job. That job goes to responsible officers of the law, and as we've seen this past year [I]even they sometimes fuck up.[/I] But that is a whole other issue.
[quote=dumbass]Oh and here's your facts, princess.
[URL]http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/07/18108298-gun-violence-in-us-has-fallen-dramatically-over-past-20-years-justice-dept-report-finds?lite[/URL]
[URL]http://www.ammoland.com/2014/03/gun-ownership-up-crime-rate-down/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/05/14/disarming-realities-as-gun-sales-soar-gun-crimes-plummet/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/12/04/washington-post-gun-violence-declining-except-gun-free-zones/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.ccrkba.org/?p=4093[/URL]
[URL]http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.examiner.com/article/crime-rates-continue-decline-while-gun-ownership-continues-to-rise[/URL]
[URL]http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/05/07/gun-crime-drops-but-americans-think-its-worse/2139421/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/16217-virginia-sees-violent-crime-fall-as-gun-sales-rise[/URL]
[URL="http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/02/19/fbi-report-shows-violent-crime-decreased-as-gun-purchases-increased/"]http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/06/13/reality-check-guns-sales-up-crimes-committed-with-guns-down-n1851342
[/URL][URL="http://www.examiner.com/article/gun-violence-plummets-and-gun-control-groups-demand-course-change-but-why"]http://www.examiner.com/article/gun-violence-plummets-and-gun-control-groups-demand-course-change-but-why
[/URL][URL]http://people.duke.edu/~gnsmith/articles/myths.htm[/URL]
[URL]http://www.gunsandammo.com/politics/cdc-gun-research-backfires-on-obama/[/URL][/QUOTE]
Yes, gun violence as a whole is on the decline. You want to know what else has declined? [URL="http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Reports/GSS_Trends%20in%20Gun%20Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf"]Gun ownership.[/URL]
"But how can this be!?" you ask as your puny brain struggles to comprehend the evidence.
It's simple. Gun purchases =/= gun ownership. The number of households and individuals has been [I]going down[/I] over the previous 40 years. Meanwhile, those individuals who own guns continue to purchase more and more. Coincidentally, the decline in ownership has coincided with the decline in violent crime.
[URL="http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx"]Here is an alternate source.[/URL]
Also [I]by pure coincidence[/I] the number of owners is going up because of this supposed fearmongering. It's funny how people want to point out a liberal knee-jerk emotional reaction while failing to acknowledge their own knee-jerk emotional reaction of "let's stockpile MORE GUNS to make us all safe!"
I can concede to the idea of not imposing more regulations, but I will [I]never[/I] concede the idea of loosening said restrictions and adding more guns. That's a fantasy promoted by the NRA to make money, plain and fucking simple. No country has ever succeeded by having an influx or privately owned guns, regardless of the legislation. The more guns we allow, the more people are going to die.
I'm sorry, but people like you are delusional man-babies who think the solution to every problem is to "kill all the bad guys". You want to turn America into a warzone.
You know what, I encourage it at this point. Go. Go elect officials who will put a gun in every home and office and school. Go spread the "joy" of firearms to everyone. The day such a thing occurs, I will be leaving this country, and I will be fucking laughing when you all start killing each other like apes.
[editline]15th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;49318835]You asked for numbers and you got numbers. Nobody is saying more guns = less crime, we are saying gun ownership is going up and crime with firearms is steadily decreasing. [/QUOTE]
As an aside, I just proved this straight up false. Gun ownership is declining Maverick, gun purchases are going up, and that has been the trend for a long time. Those households who own firearms are simply buying more, while many are making the conscious decision [I]not[/I] to buy a gun.
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Childish flaming, birthday unbanned. Wow dude you replaced his name in the quote box with "dumbass" epic zinger dude" - postal))[/highlight]
Why do people think that anyone advocating for gun control wants to ban guns? None of the countries with gun control ban guns entirely (except maybe Sweden?). I know for a fact that farmers have guns in Australia because we use them to kill wild pigs, sport shooters have guns and so do civilian (i.e. non-police) security personal. People on both sides of this argument have strawmanned each other to hell and back and it's not helping us reach any kind of resolution.
And for the pro-gun people going "OHMIGOD I can't believe anti-gun people think this..." and the anti-gun people going "OHMIGOD I can't believe pro-gun people think this...", just stop please. People think different things than you, it isn't that unbelievable. We have people on this forum who defend bestiality and child molestation for fucks sake.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;49319015]wut .walltxt[/QUOTE]
Even if what you said was true, it boils down to numbers. 0.001%. THERE. IS. NO. PROBLEM. Allow me to destroy you with your own source. You say gun ownership is declining according to Gallup.
[URL]http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/Self-Reported-Gun-Ownership-Highest-1993.aspx[/URL]
You keep living a paranoid life of illogical fear of guns by sitting at the TV praising your MSNBC news (Oh and before you claim I watch Fux, you're a retard to be watching ANY of them) and keep spewing your fear to get people killed. I will keep speaking at city council meetings and actually save lives. I, along with a lot of other people spoke and got the Ohio state Conceal Carry class to go from 12 hours, to 8 hours. Then they made a bill and voted on it.
[URL]http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2014/12/ohio_senate_approves_loosening.html[/URL]
Oh, and the gun violence because of that? Yeah that's dropped. It took a nose dive down hill after C.C. became law. [URL="http://ohioccw.org/200504193004/analysis-violent-crime-down-since-ohio-concealed-carry-became-law.html"]http://ohioccw.org/200504193004/analysis-violent-crime-down-since-ohio-concealed-carry-became-law.html
[/URL]
bananafoam nice ad hominem by calling the person you're debating against a dumbass, a+ debating skills right there
[QUOTE=bdd458;49319137]bananafoam nice ad hominem by calling the person you're debating against dumbass, a+ debating skills right there[/QUOTE]
TBH the immigration control argument was pretty dumb.
[QUOTE=Paxton;49317537]Great idea for a country that's not connected to one of the biggest illegal gun cartel sellers in the world whos spends god knows what to pump illegal weapons into the U.S. to give to people to sit on the street and go "Ey, ju wanna by a piece mane?" I've met people like you constantly and they're always screaming to legalize heroine or cocaine to bankrupt the Mexican cartels, then I say "How about legalizing those illegal guns to bankrupt them?" and the response is the same. "FUCK NO GUNS KILL PEOPLE!" Because you know, heroine and cocaine has never killed anyone.[/QUOTE]
The gun problem in Mexico is an extension of the US. Far more guns go from the US into Mexico than the other way.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;49319015]
I can concede to the idea of not imposing more regulations, but I will [I]never[/I] concede the idea of loosening said restrictions and adding more guns. That's a fantasy promoted by the NRA to make money, plain and fucking simple. No country has ever succeeded by having an influx or privately owned guns, regardless of the legislation. The more guns we allow, the more people are going to die.
I'm sorry, but people like you are delusional man-babies who think the solution to every problem is to "kill all the bad guys". You want to turn America into a warzone.
You know what, I encourage it at this point. Go. Go elect officials who will put a gun in every home and office and school. Go spread the "joy" of firearms to everyone. The day such a thing occurs, I will be leaving this country, and I will be fucking laughing when you all start killing each other like apes.
.[/QUOTE]
First off, when you write that many words, make sure at least half of them contribute to your argument.
Secondly. No one is suggesting that adding more guns is the answer. Not a one.
Thirdly, when you call the people you're arguing with "DELUSIONAL MAN BABIES" in a fit of rage because you fail to be able to effectively communicate your points, you've long since lost the argument at that point. Stop taking this so personally, stop acting like this is an emotional argument to be won by who ever can make the most fallacious appeal to human life.
Fourthly and finally, the very last little bit of your post there, the "While you're all killing each other like apes" bit? Yeah. That. Can we address that? Can we address how little connection to reality you must have had at that moment to have said such a outrageously useless statement? No one is advocating for what you think they are.
You have created a straw man and you believe that straw man is more real than the people you discuss these issues with.
Here's a tip. Stop being so emotional.
[QUOTE=bdd458;49319137]bananafoam nice ad hominem by calling the person you're debating against a dumbass, a+ debating skills right there[/QUOTE]
It wouldn't be debating without some zinging (I called him princess) but when one resorts to insults (or spamming a rating to everyone that doesn't think like them) that's when you know they've lost, it's the equivalent of someone getting the piss beaten out of them then limping away sobbing "I let you win!"
[QUOTE=squids_eye;49319158]The gun problem in Mexico is an extension of the US. Far more guns go from the US into Mexico than the other way.[/QUOTE]
This is very true. Fast and furious is a perfect example of this. However a lot of these immigrants from Mexico are bringing these weapons back into the U.S. and committing crimes with said weapons. It's not a lot, but it's enough to make me say we need stricter immigration control laws and much stronger screening before we need any more gun laws. Then I look at both the Right and Left and go "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!" because neither one of them ever accepts responsibility for their own actions, its is both their faults that the cartels are being armed in Mexico.
[QUOTE=Paxton;49319132]Even if what you said was true, it boils down to numbers. 0.001%. THERE. IS. NO. PROBLEM. Allow me to destroy you with your own source. You say gun ownership is declining according to Gallup. [/QUOTE]
If a small number of preventable deaths isn't a problem to you, then there's nothing that can really be done to convince you either way. That's probably the difference between the two sides of this argument, on one side you've got people who feel that the recognition of gun violence is getting in the way of them owning their own guns and on the other side you have people who see gun ownership as getting in the way of preventing (what they see as) preventable deaths.
If you consider people occasionally losing their lives as a reasonable requirement/consequence of protecting everybody's rights then all the more power to you, I just don't understand the mentality because I feel that people losing their lives to uphold human rights in sort of counter-intuitive.
I'm not saying that all pro-gun people think this way btw.
Just to give you some perspective of the kind of mentality I've been indoctrinated into throughout my upbringing, here's a advertisement for road safety in Australia:
[video=youtube;3RkfbZgm3Ek]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RkfbZgm3Ek[/video]
The whole tagline of the ad is "There's no one someone won't miss" and it reinforces the message that the number of road fatalities should be 0 and we should do everything we can, even making sacrifices, in order to ensure that happens. We don't think any particular liberty is worth a person's life to uphold and that we should find a balance between personal freedom and public safety, rather than seeing lives lost or people being harmed as a necessary requirement for maintaining that liberty. That's the key difference here, you've got people who see sacrifice as necessary for protecting liberties and on the other hand you've got people who see liberties as being fundamentally tied to (and limited to) the public good.
I've heard that the reason for this difference in mentality might be due to the rise of socialism in commonwealth countries (the UK, Australia, Canada, etc.) and in europe in the early to mid 20th century and how it didn't happen in the US (instead being replaced by a thing called "Progressivism" by people including Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson).
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312176]lets get one thing clear
almost all break-ins are not in cold blood - nobody wants to kill you. you're not important.
they just want your stuff.
i am arguing, right now, that your life is more important than your belonings. which is insane that i'd have to even argue that.
and that pulling a gun on intruders that almost definitely just want to take your things, and don't want to upgrade their potential charge to homicide, will hugely increase the chances of you getting killed.
'wow you're just going to let a robber take your stuff rusty? what a pussy'
yeah. it's called insurance and valuing my life and not doing something stupid that would get me killed.
and even if you don't have insurance, you have a life. don't jump out with a gun. you're probably going to get shot.[/QUOTE]
Maybe im wrong for thinking this way. Maybe you're wrong.
But if someone is in my house. I wouldn't hesitate to kill them for two reasons.
One: I will not just stand idly by to see if this break-in is in "cold blood".
Two: My property is more valuable to me than the life of someone who would force me to give them what I have worked for.
[QUOTE]
You know what, I encourage it at this point. Go. Go elect officials who will put a gun in every home and office and school. Go spread the "joy" of firearms to everyone. The day such a thing occurs, I will be leaving this country, and I will be fucking laughing when you all start killing each other like apes.[/QUOTE]
:surrender:
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;49319015]
You know what, I encourage it at this point. Go. Go elect officials who will put a gun in every home and office and school. Go spread the "joy" of firearms to everyone. The day such a thing occurs, I will be leaving this country, and I will be fucking laughing when you all start killing each other like apes.[/quote]
You should go ahead and leave anyway. Most households already have a firearm.
[QUOTE=Rofl_copter;49319257]:surrender:[/QUOTE]
Although his post is laughable it gets me thinking. Are a lot of politicians afraid to speak out against guns because its an unpopular opinion which wouldn't be good for them in terms of voting? I've seen the way everyone hates on Obama for his views on guns.
[QUOTE=Zyler;49319253]-feelings-[/QUOTE]
It should be at 0, but that is not reality, reality is is that evil will look for any gap they can to squeeze in there. You will never, ever EVER get it to 0, it's all on emotions and not your head. I hear parents crying from their dead child. I hear you, now lets try to reduce it since it will never be 0. Take down that big ugly as shit sign that says "COME ON IN AND SHOOT THESE KIDS!" (Gun free zone sign) and start arming some teachers to stop the threat. On the best scenario only the nut job is dead. On the worst case, a lot of kids and teachers are dead before a teacher or an Officer put the threat down.
Human life is valued by everyone but criminals, it's not that I don't care about the 0.001%, it's that the number is so small that introducing more laws will only increase that number because it will spike the sale of illegal firearms. More laws will make people just skip everything and buy them illegally even if they aren't the bad guy. The shop I buy from? They already do universal background checks every time for every customer, it takes 15 minutes max. What do you want? To bring back the 12 day wait on handguns? That will only, again, spike sales in black market.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;49319015]wall of text[/QUOTE]
I think you bring up some good points but calling people dumbasses and stuff kinda weakens your argument.
[editline]15th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paxton;49319296]It should be at 0, but that is not reality, reality is is that evil will look for any gap they can to squeeze in there. You will never, ever EVER get it to 0, it's all on emotions and not your head. I hear parents crying from their dead child. I hear you, now lets try to reduce it since it will never be 0. Take down that big ugly as shit sign that says "COME ON IN AND SHOOT THESE KIDS!" (Gun free zone sign) and start arming some teachers to stop the threat. On the best scenario only the nut job is dead. On the worst case, a lot of kids and teachers are dead before a teacher or an Officer put the threat down.
Human life is valued by everyone but criminals, it's not that I don't care about the 0.001%, it's that the number is so small that indroducing more laws will only increase that number because it will spike the sale of illegal firearms. More laws will make people just skip everything and buy them illegaly even if they aren't the bad guy.[/QUOTE]
It's a pretty ignorant assumption to make that 0 is an impossible target to achieve. Even in the US. We definitely can't go to 0 in a short period of time, it takes a long time to change things. Even if it was impossible its still something that we should aim for.
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