[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;49306198]its more like "people are falling off cell towers so lets stop building cell towers" that people don't think is a good idea[/QUOTE]
People are falling off cell towers so let's stop using cell phones or any sort of cellular technology
[QUOTE=Levelog;49305880]Mississippi mostly. But also all over Ohio and Tennessee frequently.[/QUOTE]
Darn. I'm in California. Not really looking to buy but it's always nice to meet other reenactors/collectors.
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;49306203]People are falling off cell towers so let's stop using cell phones or any sort of cellular technology[/QUOTE]
What are you, a communist? I'd rather be dead than red.
I remember he did an interview in Empire magazine talking about stuff like this and talked about his experiences during the LA riots. From experience I pretty much agree with the guy. I think home defense is important. There are no Guards where I live, and the criminals prey on the elderly here and those who live alone.
[QUOTE=megafat;49306234]What are you, a communist? I'd rather be dead than red.[/QUOTE]
“He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother”
- 1984
I forgot how much I love this book
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=AimlessGiant;49306194]I will go back in time and shoot the man who invented guns in order to prevent gun violence.[/QUOTE]
You might as well go back and kill the guy who invented gun powder while you're at it
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49305680]none even close to the one which caused us to outlaw them, and none even close to the ones america seems to have every week.[/QUOTE]
Shall not be infringed
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
oh i just noticed this is Rusty"shitpost like an idiot in threads just to rile people up"100
yo i just need to clarify that guns are not illegal in australia at all, they are easily attainable if you belong to a shooting club of some kind and have a proper gun safe. But you do have to continue participating in the club in order to keep your firearms, and if you want one for self-defence you can forget it
Rusty, I want to pose a question to you (and anyone who either agrees with him or wants to discuss this line of thought): How will taking my .22 varmint rifle, and the [I]millions[/I] of other legal guns owned by sane individuals who use them exclusively to kill pests and tin cans, actually make anyone safer? How will that prevent criminals from committing crimes with illegally-obtained weapons? I've heard a lot of people say this, but nobody I talk to is ever willing to actually discuss it with me.
Granted, I do live in rural Maine where police response times can be upward of an hour and coyotes are a legitimate threat, so it's uncommon to hear locals who agree with you, but lots of the tourists I meet definitely would.
Basically, what I want to know is, how does punishing the law-abiding majority for the actions of a tiny, tiny, [I]tiny[/I] criminal minority actually accomplish anything positive?
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=abcpea;49306447]yo i just need to clarify that guns are not illegal in australia at all, they are easily attainable if you belong to a shooting club of some kind and have a proper gun safe. But you do have to continue participating in the club in order to keep your firearms, and if you want one for self-defence you can forget it[/QUOTE]
With regards to self-defense, is it just outright banned or is it like in some states where you have to "prove a legitimate reason to fear for your life?" I've never actually talked to any Australians about their self-defense laws and I'm curious now.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;49306004]Add onto that, that'd it'd be pointless in the long run anyway. There are around... What? 100 million guns? And 300 million people all in the country. On average something like 3 guns per 1 person in higher density populations. Its quite evident that the majority of people who own them dont seem to be murderous psychotic assholes. All you'd be doing is taking them away from law abiding people because of the minority of people who use them for stupid shit.[/QUOTE]
It's estimated there are close to 400 million guns if not more in the states now, including illegal ones.
[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;49306507]It's estimated there are close to 400 million guns if not more in the states now, including illegal ones.[/QUOTE]
Ah.
[QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;49306452]
With regards to self-defense, is it just outright banned or is it like in some states where you have to "prove a legitimate reason to fear for your life?" I've never actually talked to any Australians about their self-defense laws and I'm curious now.[/QUOTE]
you need a legitimate reason to own a gun, and self-defence isnt one
[QUOTE=abcpea;49306557]you need a legitimate reason to own a gun, and self-defence isnt one[/QUOTE]
Thats...
Really stupid.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49305725]yeah, i think so. but it's so ingrained in americans to think that it's totally cool and normal. it's pretty bizarre to, like, most of the rest of the world. you don't need them. they're designed to kill. i am morally opposed to them.
I think that's a shame too
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
yeah, that'd be a great start.[/QUOTE]
Shooting is a huge international sport.
China, Russia, U.S. , France, Australia, and many many other countries regularly participate in it.
I'd hardly call that bizarre.
That said, I do support the idea of stricter control on weapons. Down the line it will help.
But to remove my ability to own weapons is a big no.
Debating on whether or not to get an SSG 69 or another pistol right now.
They are incredibly loud, fun, explodey things.
Should you not see why its fun, go to a friend with a rifle and get some tannerite targets.
You COULD try an indoor shooting range, but those remove all of the fun. Way more fun shooting outside.
Don't knock it til you try it at least.
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
I think guns kind of tie into the same thing breaking shit is sorta fun.
Its so damn cool putting a target down range and getting three spots right on top of each other, or hitting a target and watching it vaporize from the explosives in it.
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
You should get some guns guys.
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
Like this Anzio 20mm rifle
[img]http://thefunnybeaver.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/The-Anzio-20mm-Ultra-Long-Range-Sniper-System-3-newer-featured.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=AaronM202;49306577]Thats...
Really stupid.[/QUOTE]
That's how most countries handle guns. Most goverments wants to severely limit how much people shoot at eachother.
[QUOTE=abcpea;49306557]and self-defence isnt one[/QUOTE]
Wow. So are the police liable if they don't protect you from an attacker? Because that seems like the only way it'd be agreeable. Otherwise it's leaving you fending for yourself without any means of actually doing so.
They're not guns, they're problem solvers.
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;49306589]Debating on whether or not to get an SSG 69 or another pistol right now.
They are incredibly loud, fun, explodey things.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;49303328]You're both jacking your dicks cause you're better.
shuddap.
Killing people is good sometimes.[/QUOTE]
I'm legitimately worried you own guns since you think killing people can be a good thing.
australians: "what are human rights"
check this: [thumb]http://puu.sh/lRW8R/7bdb369ffb.png[/thumb]
theres some guys in suits out there in high office and they only want whats best for you!! takes guns off the streets and violence will cease!
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;49306731]I'm legitimately worried you own guns since you think killing people can be a good thing.[/QUOTE]
its a good thing when good people are able to defend themselves against those with evil intentions
[QUOTE=Leon;49306759]its a good thing when good people are able to defend themselves against those with evil intentions[/QUOTE]
He didn't say self-defense can be a good thing did he? He said killing people can be a good thing.
There's a monumental difference.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49305513]kurt russell is cool, so this is a big shame. the fact of the matter is that gun control works
you can come up with excuses all day long about 'only criminals will have guns' or 'people will make their own guns'
the fact of the matter is that we had a huge mass shooting in 1996. we outlawed guns, and it hasn't happened again in all the years since.
sorry america.
kurt's argument is that 'they can kill people with other things if we outlaw guns', which is true. of course anybody can kill anybody with anything
but guns make it 10x easier and more efficient to do so. and yes, they can make bombs. but making a bomb is a lot harder than getting a gun. and the harder something is, the riskier and longer it takes, and the more parts they have to source, which allows more time and more ways for them to be tracked and get caught.[/QUOTE]
The kind of people who pick up a gun and shoot up a school don't do it because they have guns at their disposal, they do it because there was no proper check on their mental health until it's too late.
I mean sure the fact they can buy a gun with more ease than in Australia or France isn't helping but that's hardly the core of the issue. The core of the issue is that the average American citizen can't tell the difference between an introvert kid who doesn't talk much and a sociopath kid who's premeditating a school shooting.
Basically American culture has a lot of weird self-righteous shit going on and combined with their complete ineptitude to notice mental illness (as well as the utter incompetence and lack of infrastructure to take care of these problems) it makes for perfect grounds for a sociopath to turn into a mass shooter. Guns are only a small part of the equation.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49306807]The core of the issue is that the average American citizen can't tell the difference between an introvert kid who doesn't talk much and a sociopath kid who's premeditating a school shooting.[/QUOTE]
Highly doubt the average citizen of any nation could tell the difference (unless that nation is made up exclusively of shrinks), but I see your point.
[QUOTE=Robman8908;49306824]Highly doubt the average citizen of any nation could tell the difference (unless that nation is made up exclusively of shrinks), but I see your point.[/QUOTE]
In France introvert kids in school are usually scrutinized and that kind of thing is taken seriously. It's still a very permeable system and as a result those who get through are usually very dangerous.
Additionally, those who do decide to go through with their plans rarely do so with guns - instead, it's stab central, and instead of having one person kill a dozen in a school, you have one person kidnapping a classmate and doing some fucked up shit to them.
The chances you will ever need a gun for self-defense is incredibly low unless you live in a crime-ridden neighbourhood, in which case being a single person with a gun isn't going to do much against criminal gangs and stuff (if it did there wouldn't be a crime-ridden neighbourhoods). Guns also aren't really an equalizing factor since wealthier people (and criminals who acquire firearms illegally) are going to have access to bigger and more powerful guns compared to poorer people. The effectiveness of a firearm is also affected by the skill of the person using it as well as how able-bodied they are, so a person in a wheel chair probably isn't going to fend of an able-bodied assailant who gets them by surprise even if they do have a gun. A criminal who has spent their entire life fighting and using guns is going to be stronger than you, quicker than you and shoot better than you. Even if you are the exception to that rule, most regular civilians aren't.
Tests have shown that guns are just about useless for self-defense unless you're a police officer, for example it is shown that a knife-wielding assailant can run 20-metres in the time it takes you to draw a gun out of a holster. If your walking down the street and some person pulls a knife on you from behind and shanks you, having a gun in your pocket isn't going to help at all. If a person mugs you with a knife, they'll be able to run over and shank you before you can take the gun out of your pocket. This is assuming that anyone would bother mugging you with a knife when they can so easily get a gun instead and just shoot you; the instant a person has a gun in their hands and you don't, you've lost. There's no way you can quick-draw the gun max payne-style before they gun you down. Police have proper procedures and the authority to ensure that people stay far enough away from them to make their handguns useful, you don't. Unless you constantly have your gun out and point it at everybody or you act like a paranoid schizophrenic and eye everybody you see, there's no practical use for firearms as self-defense on the street.
What about using firearms for home defense? Well studies have shown that house alarms are much more effective at deterring thieves than guns. The picture you have in your mind of an evil hooded teenager breaking into your house randomly one day and you needing to pull your shotgun of the rule to fend of the drug-craze fiend...well that never happens, ever (not really often enough to warrant preparing yourself for the possibility, anyway), and even if it did, a home alarm is more effective in those cases. In reality, most thieves deliberately and slowly scout out places to rob and will most likely break in when you're away or asleep. There's really no reason not to do this, since if they didn't get shot by somebody with a gun they'd still get arrested by police when they inevitably get called. Having a firearm in your house isn't going to do much when somebody breaks in when you're away or asleep; chances are they'd just steal it anyway. So you'll probably never have to shotgun somebody whose breaking into your house, if you spent that money on a home alarm that notified the police you'd be much better protected.
The next thing to consider is a moral dilemma relating to the use of guns, this might seem like a weird question but is it worth it to shoot and likely kill a person because they break into your house? What's the alternative? You don't shoot the person and they steal your television and run off? Is your television worth a human life? Is it worth taking another person's life because they stole your xbox? What about your computer? Are any of your personal possessions worth a human life? In the case of a mugging, is your wallet worth a human life?
This is the reason cashiers don't carry guns, it simply isn't worth somebody (either the robber or the cashier) losing their life over the money in the cash register.
A lot of countries and cultures have something like an honor system, which is essentially a cultural code of conduct when it comes to how a person defends and upholds their standing within society, their reputation, their 'machismo'. I think people in the USA have a kind of honor system, especially in the southern states, which is summarized as "Speak softly and carry a big stick" (which was a term coined by Theodore Roosevelt to describe US foreign policy, but I think it applies well to American culture in general). What I mean by this is that Americans might see it as a manner of 'honor' to defend their family or their own person from a break-in by shooting the home invader and killing them, while people in other countries would rather let the invader steal things and then collect on the insurance.
TL;DR: Guns are pretty much useless for self-defense and your probably never going to use it for self-defense anyway and even if you did need to use it for whatever reason, you might not actually want to.
[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;49306801]He didn't say self-defense can be a good thing did he? He said killing people can be a good thing.
There's a monumental difference.[/QUOTE]
And you tacked me meaning that indiscriminate killing is a good thing onto it. Be quiet and don't skew what people say in order to bolster your statements.
[QUOTE=Zyler;49306953]The chances you will ever need a gun for self-defense is incredibly low unless you live in a crime-ridden neighbourhood, in which case being a single person with a gun isn't going to do much against criminal gangs and stuff (if it did there wouldn't be a crime-ridden neighbourhoods). Guns also aren't really an equalizing factor since wealthier people (and criminals who acquire firearms illegally) are going to have access to bigger and more powerful guns compared to poorer people. The effectiveness of a firearm is also affected by the skill of the person using it as well as how able-bodied they are, so a person in a wheel chair probably isn't going to fend of an able-bodied assailant who gets them by surprise even if they do have a gun. A criminal who has spent their entire life fighting and using guns is going to be stronger than you, quicker than you and shoot better than you. Even if you are the exception to that rule, most regular civilians aren't.
Tests have shown that guns are just about useless for self-defense unless you're a police officer, for example it is shown that a knife-wielding assailant can run 20-metres in the time it takes you to draw a gun out of a holster. If your walking down the street and some person pulls a knife on you from behind and shanks you, having a gun in your pocket isn't going to help at all. If a person mugs you with a knife, they'll be able to run over and shank you before you can take the gun out of your pocket. This is assuming that anyone would bother mugging you with a knife when they can so easily get a gun instead and just shoot you; the instant a person has a gun in their hands and you don't, you've lost. There's no way you can quick-draw the gun max payne-style before they gun you down. Police have proper procedures and the authority to ensure that people stay far enough away from them to make their handguns useful, you don't. Unless you constantly have your gun out and point it at everybody or you act like a paranoid schizophrenic and eye everybody you see, there's no practical use for firearms as self-defense on the street.
What about using firearms for home defense? Well studies have shown that house alarms are much more effective at deterring thieves than guns. The picture you have in your mind of an evil hooded teenager breaking into your house randomly one day and you needing to pull your shotgun of the rule to fend of the drug-craze fiend...well that never happens, ever (not really often enough to warrant preparing yourself for the possibility, anyway), and even if it did, a home alarm is more effective in those cases. In reality, most thieves deliberately and slowly scout out places to rob and will most likely break in when you're away or asleep. There's really no reason not to do this, since if they didn't get shot by somebody with a gun they'd still get arrested by police when they inevitably get called. Having a firearm in your house isn't going to do much when somebody breaks in when you're away or asleep; chances are they'd just steal it anyway. So you'll probably never have to shotgun somebody whose breaking into your house, if you spent that money on a home alarm that notified the police you'd be much better protected.
The next thing to consider is a moral dilemma relating to the use of guns, this might seem like a weird question but is it worth it to shoot and likely kill a person because they break into your house? What's the alternative? You don't shoot the person and they steal your television and run off? Is your television worth a human life? Is it worth taking another person's life because they stole your xbox? What about your computer? Are any of your personal possessions worth a human life? In the case of a mugging, is your wallet worth a human life?
This is the reason cashiers don't carry guns, it simply isn't worth somebody (either the robber or the cashier) losing their life over the money in the cash register.
A lot of countries and cultures have something like an honor system, which is essentially a cultural code of conduct when it comes to how a person defends and upholds their standing within society, their reputation, their 'machismo'. I think people in the USA have a kind of honor system, especially in the southern states, which is summarized as "Speak softly and carry a big stick" (which was a term coined by Theodore Roosevelt to describe US foreign policy, but I think it applies well to American culture in general). What I mean by this is that Americans might see it as a manner of 'honor' to defend their family or their own person from a break-in by shooting the home invader and killing them, while people in other countries would rather let the invader steal things and then collect on the insurance.
TL;DR: Guns are pretty much useless for self-defense and your probably never going to use it for self-defense anyway and even if you did need to use it for whatever reason, you might not actually want to.[/QUOTE]
You wrote a lot of stuff, unfortunately none of it made any sense whatsoever.
First, you really underestimate the need for a firearm. Our country is pretty damn poor, any city you find is going to have a bad neighborhood. No one buys a gun for the purpose of fighting gangbangers in the street, gang shootouts almost never happen anymore anyway. What does happened is jumpings, robberies, car and home break-ins, all of which a gun is effective against. Your justification of "they have guns, they still have crime, it doesn't work!!!" is flawed entirely. The reason we have crime is infinitely more complex than what you make it out to be.
Guns aren't an equalizer? Really? Count wealthy people and the type of gun out of your argument already, they literally don't factor into this at all, it's not an arms race or a videogame. Criminals also aren't going to get military equipment, the overwhelming majority of armed crimes in the United States are done with low quality handguns, not sniper rifles or AA12s. When it comes down to self defense, all that matters is ammunition. As in, do you want the person down in one, three, or five shots? And again, this isn't a videogame. Criminals aren't out in the street growing exponentially more dangerous and stronger because they've committed more crimes. Someone who got away with 4 armed robberies isn't an expert marksman or assassin, chances are he didn't fire his gun even once. A professional, trained, and experienced criminal is going to put his skills to work somewhere else, not robbing people in the street for $20. Your idea of a some super ripped criminal with a desert eagle and hawk's eye literally does not exist.
"Tests have shown..." yeah this much is true, but you are skipping over vast amounts of self defense situations. There's not much you can do period against someone literally assassinating you out of nowhere from behind with a knife or a gun. But if you have a CCW you can catch someone unaware, unless of course their knife is at your throat or you are already being held up. Back to the real world, my mother got a job as real estate agent very recently, and she has been absolutely against guns her entire life. But with her new job, shes heard first hand stories of encounters where coworkers have been in danger. She herself directly helped catch a criminal posing as a housing agent, who was getting people to let them into their house, and then stealing valuables and pills. That same person could just as easily planned a murder instead of a robbery. Shes had to show houses in good [b]and[/b] bad neighborhoods, and in one instance a literal meth house. My mother now has a CCW license and carries a pistol with her every day, she tells me as a 5'4 female working alone in varied locations it gives her security and that the majority of her firm also has CCW licenses and actively carries, they don't wear suits for nothing. A firearm definitely is an equalizer in more situations than "out on the street".
In regards to home defense you are absolutely wrong. "Well that never happens, ever" There have been numerous stories in the news of intruders killing people in their own home, and a video on here is regularly posted of a crazy guy with a machete breaking through an apartment door and claiming hes going to kill the inhabitants. He was shot three times in the chest and went down, iirc he survived too. Break-ins with intent to rape or murder happen a lot more than you must think. The police are also extremely unreliable and don't factor into the equation of home defense as they are an after-measure, not a preventative.
For a moral dilemma? I honestly don't care. If I hear someone in my house, I don't know their goal, I'm going to assume the worst because my life or my families isn't worth otherwise. I personally wouldn't go guns blazing, most people wouldn't. I guarantee you a lot of the posters on this forum who act like they're blasting away at the first person who comes into their home is probably a child who doesn't even own a gun. But this is really just a no brainer honestly, follow this in accordance to the laws we already have. If you shoot someone fleeing or who has given up, that's murder with no argument. If you tell an intruder to put his hands up and step back and he does anything to the contrary that appears aggressive, it's self defense and it's your personal judgement whether you want to take action.
And why do cashiers not carry guns? Well that's a lot more simple than executives only thinking about loss of life, it's liability for the company. It's common policy for big chains not to interfere with theft for a lot of reasons, injury is only one. Otherwise, in rural or family owned places, there's probably a gun under the counter or in the back. See the famous Roof Koreans.
And in regards to "honor" if you mean that I think someone defending their family from a credible threat is honorable, then yes I do. If Bubba shoots someone in the back because he was running away with his case of Bud Light that's murder. It's really as simple as that.
TL;DR Zyler is wrong on many accounts and doesn't understand the deeper implications of poverty, crime, and self defense in The United States.
A pretty simple point to bring up is that, in cases where a firearm is drawn for self-defense, the gun is almost never even discharged. Just the brandishing of a gun is effective for self-defense.
I truly feel sorry for the US. There is obviously a silent majority in the States that wants to do something about guns but I fear that action will never be taken until the US has their own Port Arthur. Which is when people will finally start to take action and do something about the gun problem in the US. Until that day when people put human lives above their selfish interests, people will continue to get mad at the mention of weapon regulation while innocent lives are ended using guns on a daily basis.
Also, please stop bringing up the second amendment, you can AMEND it! That's why its called an amendment.
Also, can we stop with the bullshit, "Things are different in the US!!!!" because we all know it already and it doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done. You are not a third world country for fuck's sake! Yes poverty is bad and stuff but its bad in a lot of countries. More mass shootings than calender dates is not normal it is an American phenomenon and its definitely not something that should continue.
Additionally, there needs to be improvements made to health (especially mental health) and actions taken to bring citizens above the poverty line.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49307432]I truly feel sorry for the US. There is obviously a silent majority in the States that wants to do something about guns but I fear that action will never be taken until the US has their own Port Arthur. Which is when people will finally start to take action and do something about the gun problem in the US. Until that day when people put human lives above their selfish interests, people will continue to get mad at the mention of weapon regulation while innocent lives are ended using guns on a daily basis.
Also, please stop bringing up the second amendment, you can AMEND it! That's why its called an amendment.
Also, can we stop with the bullshit, "Things are different in the US!!!!" because we all know it already and it doesn't change the fact that something needs to be done. You are not a third world country for fuck's sake! Yes poverty is bad and stuff but its bad in a lot of countries. More mass shootings than calender dates is not normal it is an American phenomenon and its definitely not something that should continue.
Additionally, there needs to be improvements made to health (especially mental health) and actions taken to bring citizens above the poverty line.[/QUOTE]What convinces you of this silent majority that you believe agrees with you? The amendments themselves can be amended, no shit, it has happened before. But they're designed to be very rigid and hard to change because they're meant to be critical to the function of the country, like freedom of speech, equal rights, criminal protections, things of that nature. The right to defend one's self and the ability of the people to arm and mobilize be it for defense or for revolution is considered one of those rights critical to our country functioning. Furthermore, the "more mass shootings than calendar dates" thing is bullshit. That article showing just shy of a thousand mass shootings is literally fiction, they writers intentionally perverted and distorted their data and created their own terms to portray a conclusion they liked, not reality. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of gun deaths are suicides, with the ones after that being gang related IE people who are have disregard for the law already and going to be almost entirely unaffected by regulations. Furthermore, the incredibly overwhelming majority of firearms are legit and have never been and never will be used for a crime, let alone a homicide. It is an incredibly small fraction of the firearms in the U.S. that are used for crimes.
[QUOTE=Leon;49306759]australians: "what are human rights"
check this: [url]http://puu.sh/lRW8R/7bdb369ffb.png[/url]
theres some guys in suits out there in high office and they only want whats best for you!! takes guns off the streets and violence will cease!
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
its a good thing when good people are able to defend themselves against those with evil intentions[/QUOTE]
that 4chan post is everything wrong with the american way of thinking
[QUOTE=Leon;49306759]australians: "what are human rights"
check this: [thumb]http://puu.sh/lRW8R/7bdb369ffb.png[/thumb]
theres some guys in suits out there in high office and they only want whats best for you!! takes guns off the streets and violence will cease![/QUOTE]
why is "The only way for americans to function as a modern society is by having deadly weapons" a good thing
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