[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312136]how did you know they didn't have firearms?
if you'd stood out with an AK and they had been armed, it's likely they would have seen you as an immediate threat to their lives and shot you. and they outnumbered you so don't tell me you'd have shot both of them before getting yourself killed
you are insanely lucky to be alive. what a stupid thing to do[/QUOTE]
Just pray they don't kill you right? Lay there and take death coming because why?
If you've ever had a break in, or a nutter banging down your door(literally), you'd feel differently.
[QUOTE=Paxton;49312126]We do back them up time and time again and people like you go "AHHH THAT'S RIGHT WING BULLSHIT I WANT FACTS!"
>shows facts
"IT"S RIGHT WING BULLSHIT, FACTS!!!!!!!
>shows facts
"BULSHIT, FACTS!"
You're the only one here operation on butt-hurt emotions and not your head. Why don't YOU grow up and lean that the world doesn't revolve around your feelings and illogical fear of guns and don't fucking buy one and let us keep our constitutional rights.[/QUOTE]
Alright, show me the facts. Show them to me, right now, since you clearly have them all.
I'm not here on "butthurt emotions", I'm here because you delusional fuckers constantly deny reality and want to pretend that somehow people aren't dying and that this isn't an issue.
Gun violence may be going down, but domestic terrorism is on the rise and the number one weapon for domestic terrorists right now are firearms. My biggest problem is idiots like you who have convinced themselves that it simply isn't happening. An outright denial of reality.
Once again, nowhere did I state that I want to take away your guns. That's what is so jarring. I never proposed anything like that, yet you create some strawman to beat up because the only argument you assholes have is attacking a fictitious enemy. My fear of guns is not illogical. If anything, the love of the gun is illogical. Of course you should fear something that's purpose is, has, and always will be to kill people. Regardless of its other uses, there is no taking away that guns were made for that express purpose and guns will always be made for that purpose.
I'm sorry but get your head out of your ass already. Gun control needs to be implemented. It has worked in every other developed country and the only thing stopping it from working here are assholes like you who sit on /k/ and jerk off to assault rifles because you desperately need to make up for your own battered masculinity. Ultimately, that's all your precious guns are good for anyways.
You don't need to fear guns.
You need to fucking respect them.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49312147]Then what the fuck are you doing talking to us about it?
You've already made up your mind, you're morally opposed to them. That's not a postulate that will change, that is a personal edict or belief that you have cemented.
And the very fact you have someone's reputation ruined for you because they're a gun rights supporter speaks volumes more about how much you shouldn't be involved in gun control conversations just as much as the gun nuts who spout conspiracy theories.[/QUOTE]
in case u didnt notice i had stopped pointlessly arguing my fundamental disagreement with the right to bear arms
except to tell maverickib that he's far more likely to get killed by pulling a gun on intruders if they too are armed with guns (which id wager there is no way to tell until you've got a clear view)
Your issue, and this is the issue people forget in general, is that most far right organizations looking to cause considerable harm using terrorism, stockpile everything like crazy.
They're the doomsday preppers. They're already loaded to the teeth and we've seen what happens when we try to disarm them.
Waco.
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312158]in case u didnt notice i had stopped pointlessly arguing my fundamental disagreement with the right to bear arms
except to tell maverickib that he's far more likely to get killed by pulling a gun on intruders if they too are armed with guns (which id wager there is no way to tell until you've got a clear view)[/QUOTE]
You opened the conversation with that, how does that look to anyone going forward in the thread?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49312148]Just pray they don't kill you right? Lay there and take death coming because why?
If you've ever had a break in, or a nutter banging down your door(literally), you'd feel differently.[/QUOTE]
lets get one thing clear
almost all break-ins are not in cold blood - nobody wants to kill you. you're not important.
they just want your stuff.
i am arguing, right now, that your life is more important than your belonings. which is insane that i'd have to even argue that.
and that pulling a gun on intruders that almost definitely just want to take your things, and don't want to upgrade their potential charge to homicide, will hugely increase the chances of you getting killed.
'wow you're just going to let a robber take your stuff rusty? what a pussy'
yeah. it's called insurance and valuing my life and not doing something stupid that would get me killed.
and even if you don't have insurance, you have a life. don't jump out with a gun. you're probably going to get shot.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49312162]Your issue, and this is the issue people forget in general, is that most far right organizations looking to cause considerable harm using terrorism, stockpile everything like crazy.
They're the doomsday preppers. They're already loaded to the teeth and we've seen what happens when we try to disarm them.
Waco.[/QUOTE]
And that's the problem. The fact that it has gotten this bad proves that gun-control advocates have already lost and we now have a world where terrorism is an occurrence of daily life.
But to say that we shouldn't stop just because we've gone to far is ridiculous. That's like saying we shouldn't try to combat climate change because the climate's already fucked.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49312162]Your issue, and this is the issue people forget in general, is that most far right organizations looking to cause considerable harm using terrorism, stockpile everything like crazy.
They're the doomsday preppers. They're already loaded to the teeth and we've seen what happens when we try to disarm them.
[/QUOTE]
So the solution is to keep letting them stockpile more guns?
The longer you wait, the worse it gets.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312176]lets get one thing clear
almost all break-ins are not in cold blood - nobody wants to kill you. you're not important.
they just want your stuff.
i am arguing, right now, that your life is more important than your belonings. which is insane that i'd have to even argue that.
and that pulling a gun on intruders that almost definitely just want to take your things, and don't want to upgrade their potential charge to homicide, will hugely increase the chances of you getting killed.
'wow you're just going to let a robber take your stuff rusty? what a pussy'
yeah. it's called insurance and valuing my life and not doing something stupid that would get me killed.
and even if you don't have insurance, you have a life. don't jump out with a gun. you're probably going to get shot.[/QUOTE]
Let's get something else clear.
When I was 12, a man on meth smashed my kitchen sliding door and became a hazard. He left because we had a weapon.
Who knows what happens in those situations. I am not speaking of thieves. I'm not worried about thieves. I do worry about rapists, I live with my girlfriend. What, if they decide to rape her just let it happen? Would you?
Rape is obviously awful. But any time you pull a gun on somebody, you're increasing the chances of your own death, since you have no idea how armed or formidable they are.
I'd say, statistically, someone breaking into your house to rape you is a lot less likely, than you or a loved one being killed as a result of your own firearm.
You're protecting yourself from a hypothetical, while in reality, only endangering yourself more.
Seriously though, all I do is come in here and say that we could restrict guns slightly more and suddenly I'm being jumped on for wanting to "take away the guns".
I never advocated for such a thing and it isn't even feasible, but it just makes the other side of the argument look fucking retarded.
I'm being attacked for something I never said and the only way others can back it up is delusional fantasies of "well if they regulate it than they WILL take away my guns!" even though the "slippery slope" is a proven logical fallacy and it only shows how delusional you people are. If you are really that paranoid that the "evil gubment" is going to come and take your guns and start oppressing you or some shit, then clearly you are not living in reality. This is not a fantasy world or a movie or a game. Even if the government did become tyrannical (which considering how incompetent it is that would be quite astonishing) do you really think your guns will somehow save you?
That's the problem. You all think you are vigilante badasses just waiting for some evildoer to try and stop you. Than you can defeat them and be a hero and finally be cool. Guess what; it is unlikely to ever happen. What is far more likely is that some other asshole like yourself will finally snap and delude themselves into thinking that they are achieving something by killing others and, while you are in a public space where you least expect it, they will shoot you. And regardless of if you are carrying or not, you will likely get shot and killed simply by being taken off guard, and even if you do manage to fight back you suddenly have a firefight with a maniac and a whole slew of innocent people in the middle.
So let's instead take Maverick's case. Fighting off a home invasion. Perfectly acceptable use of a firearm and logical as well. If you live in an urban (or even suburban area) private gun ownership for protection is actually very wise in my opinion because there is always the possibility or realistic violence, no matter how slim. But even still, it isn't a guarantee of safety either.
So there is a legitimate use for firearms, and I don't disagree with that. But how instituting stricter laws on firearm ownership would somehow take that away is bullshit and you all know it. I don't believe it is possible to take the guns from those who already own them, but we can make it harder for first-time owners and make them prove their responsibility and good intentions.
I just don't get how you people freak out about gun control and go spouting logical fallacies and delusions to back up your irrational fearmongering about "de gubment". If you truly are a responsible gun owner, you will have nothing to fear from increased regulation. Like I said, I do not advocate outright bans and I think they are nigh impossible in a country with as many firearms as ours, but we don't need outright bans to reduce the amount of violence. Many countries are doing just fine without bans, but all of them have stricter regulation than the US. But in said countries, you can still buy guns and use guns just fine. Countries like Germany, Italy, and even France.
Basically, stop being paranoid nutjobs and stop being convinced from the rightwing reactionaries that evil Obummer is coming to take your guns or that all of use liberals hate guns and just want to revoke them at a moments notice. It's delusional and unrealistic to think that way.
and yeah, people are going to have stories of them warding off attackers. occasionally that works, thankfully.
but the stories you won't hear are the many more times it turned a bad situation into a worse one. because those people are dead.
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
people who are for owning weapons never actually think their passion through and consider the details.
their logic stops at 'big gun = me safe'
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312136]how did you know they didn't have firearms?
if you'd stood out with an AK and they had been armed, it's likely they would have seen you as an immediate threat to their lives and panicked and shot you. and they outnumbered you so don't tell me you'd have shot both of them before getting yourself killed
you are insanely lucky to be alive. what a stupid thing to do[/QUOTE]
so what are you going to do, jump out of your apartment window while these potentially gun armed criminals storm inside?
What if they see you running and decide to shoot you because they don't want you alerting the police? Like, with your logic you could argue against any sort of defensive action.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312265]and yeah, people are going to have stories of them warding off attackers. occasionally that works, thankfully.
but the stories you won't hear are the many more times it turned a bad situation into a worse one. because those people are dead.[/QUOTE]
Or the stories you do hear in which some nutjob decides to make a statement by murdering many people in the streets. Or the stories you don't hear of gunfights in the ghettos that get innocent people killed in the crossfire.
As of yet none of the other posters have presented evidence that guns truly stop more violence than they cause, probably because they can't find any from a reliable source.
Guns were made to cause violence. They may have other uses and can even be used to prevent violence in good hands, but that was my point. Guns are falling into the wrong hands for the wrong reasons.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49312199]Let's get something else clear.
When I was 12, a man on meth smashed my kitchen sliding door and became a hazard. He left because we had a weapon.
Who knows what happens in those situations. I am not speaking of thieves. I'm not worried about thieves. I do worry about rapists, I live with my girlfriend. What, if they decide to rape her just let it happen? Would you?[/QUOTE]
When a lot of people draw their gun on an attacker they don't draw with the intention to kill. So a lot of the time this can backfire on them pretty badly. Next thing you know now the attacker is armed and you aren't.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;49312264]Seriously though, all I do is come in here and say that we could restrict guns slightly more and suddenly I'm being jumped on for wanting to "take away the guns".
I never advocated for such a thing and it isn't even feasible, but it just makes the other side of the argument look fucking retarded.
I'm being attacked for something I never said and the only way others can back it up is delusional fantasies of "well if they regulate it than they WILL take away my guns!" even though the "slippery slope" is a proven logical fallacy and it only shows how delusional you people are. If you are really that paranoid that the "evil gubment" is going to come and take your guns and start oppressing you or some shit, then clearly you are not living in reality. This is not a fantasy world or a movie or a game. Even if the government did become tyrannical (which considering how incompetent it is that would be quite astonishing) do you really think your guns will somehow save you?
That's the problem. You all think you are vigilante badasses just waiting for some evildoer to try and stop you. Than you can defeat them and be a hero and finally be cool. Guess what; it is unlikely to ever happen. What is far more likely is that some other asshole like yourself will finally snap and delude themselves into thinking that they are achieving something by killing others and, while you are in a public space where you least expect it, they will shoot you. And regardless of if you are carrying or not, you will likely get shot and killed simply by being taken off guard, and even if you do manage to fight back you suddenly have a firefight with a maniac and a whole slew of innocent people in the middle.
So let's instead take Maverick's case. Fighting off a home invasion. Perfectly acceptable use of a firearm and logical as well. If you live in an urban (or even suburban area) private gun ownership for protection is actually very wise in my opinion because there is always the possibility or realistic violence, no matter how slim. But even still, it isn't a guarantee of safety either.
So there is a legitimate use for firearms, and I don't disagree with that. But how instituting stricter laws on firearm ownership would somehow take that away is bullshit and you all know it. I don't believe it is possible to take the guns from those who already own them, but we can make it harder for first-time owners and make them prove their responsibility and good intentions.
I just don't get how you people freak out about gun control and go spouting logical fallacies and delusions to back up your irrational fearmongering about "de gubment". If you truly are a responsible gun owner, you will have nothing to fear from increased regulation. Like I said, I do not advocate outright bans and I think they are nigh impossible in a country with as many firearms as ours, but we don't need outright bans to reduce the amount of violence. Many countries are doing just fine without bans, but all of them have stricter regulation than the US. But in said countries, you can still buy guns and use guns just fine. Countries like Germany, Italy, and even France.
Basically, stop being paranoid nutjobs and stop being convinced from the rightwing reactionaries that evil Obummer is coming to take your guns or that all of use liberals hate guns and just want to revoke them at a moments notice. It's delusional and unrealistic to think that way.[/QUOTE]
Well most levelheaded gun right advocates don't think this way. Learn to read the entire thread and every argument presented before you go on a wall text rampage.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49312280]so what are you going to do, jump out of your apartment window while these potentially gun armed criminals storm inside?
What if they see you running and decide to shoot you because they don't want you alerting the police? Like, with your logic you could argue against any sort of defensive action.[/QUOTE]
fleeing as quietly as you can or hiding or simply just letting them steal stuff puts you at less of a risk than ambushing them with a loaded weapon. that's just common sense.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49312283]When a lot of people draw their gun on an attacker they don't draw with the intention to kill. So a lot of the time this can backfire on them pretty badly. Next thing you know now the attacker is armed and you aren't.[/QUOTE]
Gun safety 101 says if you point a gun at something be ready to kill it
I was taught that, all gun owners and users should be as well
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312265]and yeah, people are going to have stories of them warding off attackers. occasionally that works, thankfully.
but the stories you won't hear are the many more times it turned a bad situation into a worse one. because those people are dead.
[editline]14th December 2015[/editline]
people who are for owning weapons never actually think their passion through and consider the details.
their logic stops at 'big gun = me safe'[/QUOTE]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use#Estimates_of_frequency[/url]
this lists the estimated number of times guns are used defensively per year somewhere between 40,000 to 4 million
compare that with the number of non suicide gun related deaths and it seems pretty clear that guns help more often than not
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49312307]Gun safety 101 says if you point a gun at something be ready to kill it
I was taught that, all gun owners and users should be as well[/QUOTE]
and it's easier said and taught than it is done. it's been proven time and again that 'an armed good guy' rarely stops 'an armed bad guy' in the case of mass shootings. the 'bad guy' is always ready and the 'good guy' never is. it's not much different in a home.
sometimes it works, and if it worked for you i'm happy you're safe.
but mostly, it doesn't.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;49312281]Or the stories you do hear in which some nutjob decides to make a statement by murdering many people in the streets. Or the stories you don't hear of gunfights in the ghettos that get innocent people killed in the crossfire.
As of yet none of the other posters have presented evidence that guns truly stop more violence than they cause, probably because they can't find any from a reliable source.
Guns were made to cause violence. They may have other uses and can even be used to prevent violence in good hands, but that was my point. Guns are falling into the wrong hands for the wrong reasons.[/QUOTE]
So, what do you want to do about it? And I'll say this again like I did earlier in the thread, gun violence and violence in general has been going down in the past 12 years.
[editline]13th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312295]fleeing as quietly as you can or hiding or simply just letting them steal stuff puts you at less of a risk than ambushing them with a loaded weapon. that's just common sense.[/QUOTE]
Well plenty of people are more stubborn than you. Legally (mostly) people can stand their ground when someone invades their residence.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312312]and it's easier said and taught than it is done. it's been proven time and again that 'an armed good guy' rarely stops 'an armed bad guy' in the case of mass shootings. the 'bad guy' is always ready and the 'good guy' never is. it's not much different in a home.
sometimes it works, and if it worked for you i'm happy you're safe.
but mostly, it doesn't.[/QUOTE]
do you actually have evidence to back up this assertion
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49312307]Gun safety 101 says if you point a gun at something be ready to kill it
I was taught that, all gun owners and users should be as well[/QUOTE]
I agree but no amount of training can prepare you for the actual situation. I highly doubt most people would be calm and collected in a life or death situation.
[QUOTE=EvilMattress;49312314]So, what do you want to do about it? And I'll say this again like I did earlier in the thread, gun violence and violence in general has been going down in the past 12 years.[/QUOTE]
make guns harder to get. don't outlaw them yet. do something about the state of mental health in the us.
then keep increasing how difficult guns are to get while also improving mental health care over a number of years. eventually, even if it takes a while, you'll be in a far better position to make owning a gun illegal.
it's a long term plan. but it's better than the amount of guns continuing to rise.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312253]Rape is obviously awful. But any time you pull a gun on somebody, you're increasing the chances of your own death, since you have no idea how armed or formidable they are.
I'd say, statistically, someone breaking into your house to rape you is a lot less likely, than you or a loved one being killed as a result of your own firearm.
You're protecting yourself from a hypothetical, while in reality, only endangering yourself more.[/QUOTE]
How do you know any of this for a fact? This is all hypothetical, all of it. You can't know a situation like that before it happens. Guns give you the chance to defend yourself, it's not a 100% stop solution to being raped/attacked/potentially murdered, but it's a chance.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;49312181]And that's the problem. The fact that it has gotten this bad proves that gun-control advocates have already lost and we now have a world where terrorism is an occurrence of daily life.
But to say that we shouldn't stop just because we've gone to far is ridiculous. That's like saying we shouldn't try to combat climate change because the climate's already fucked.[/QUOTE]
People aren't really opposed to gun control, they're opposed to poorly implemented gun control made by people who have little knowledge of firearms and their existing laws. The high capacity magazine and assault weapons bans did very little to deter the San Bernardino and Planned Parenthood shootings.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49312307]Gun safety 101 says if you point a gun at something be ready to kill it
I was taught that, all gun owners and users should be as well[/QUOTE]
excuse me? americans have a RIGHT to bear arms, they dont need your communist safety lessons.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;49312331]make guns harder to get. don't outlaw them yet. do something about the state of mental health in the us.
then keep increasing how difficult guns are to get while also improving mental health care over a number of years. eventually, even if it takes a while, you'll be in a far better position to make owning a gun illegal.
it's a long term plan. but it's better than the amount of guns continuing to rise.[/QUOTE]
Who is it benefiting to make guns harder to get?
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49312328]I agree but no amount of training can prepare you for the actual situation. I highly doubt most people would be calm and collected in a life or death situation.[/QUOTE]
Any time my gun, or any gun, is up and pointed at something, it's life or death. I have the utmost respect for guns and very little fear of them. The statistics do not match the media hype. The gun laws in my country are entirely reasonable and I do agree, when I look south I see a need for gun control. Not removal, control.
I know not many people are actually advocating for full on removal but I strongly disagree with the point of a disarming of that nature as well as I disagree with the notion of its possibility
[QUOTE=abcpea;49312352]excuse me? americans have a RIGHT to bear arms, they dont need your communist safety lessons.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure you're just shitposting, but I majorly advocate gun rights and I agree with him that we need safety lessons to help people respect and handle guns properly. Accidental injuries from users are probably the number 1 issue with guns right now imo.
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