The Bioshock Infinite We Never Got - Crowbcat - General

I'm not sure why people are so critical of the game, sure it has it flaws but to me it's an enjoyable experience. Though the final part on Comstock's airship pisses me off for how hard it is

[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;51304762]I'm not sure why people are so critical of the game, sure it has it flaws but to me it's an enjoyable experience. Though the final part on Comstock's airship pisses me off for how hard it is[/QUOTE] The more vocally praised and held on a pedestal something is, the more likely critics and its opposition are to throw an utter shitstorm about it. I don't know why but there was a lot of blind hype and 'Citizen Kane of gaming' jokes played seriously around launch. Once the opinions split between those who loved it and those who saw the flaws, it just became a massive clusterfuck where you're a miserable excuse of a human being if you like it and you clearly don't understand video games if you hate it. Maybe i'm over-exaggerating the mess, but that's what it felt like to me.

What i disliked about infinite was they didn't bother to address that they had change the game since those trailers.

Bioshock changed a ton in development, too. More than Infinite. I remember when they talked about intricate systems such as the caste system (which were pretty much Big Daddies and Little Sisters, worked to a bigger scale and more castes like them); environmental affectations, such as being able to modify an area's air pressure to change acoustic properties or temperature to change behavioral patterns; and the enemies being straight up bugs with different powers. As someone with a great regard for System Shock 2, I was let down by what Bioshock offered as a result of that hype. It was fine it its own regard, but I still imagine what that original Bioshock would've been like.

The part 2 of the DLC is so good though

[QUOTE=Antimuffin;51297845]I remember Facepunch going ape-shit about how well the story was written and how there were hints and foreshadowing all the way through. And now everybody dislikes it. The only thing that I really disliked in the game was the combat. The story, atmosphere and characters were really good imo.[/QUOTE] the story felt woefully simplified to me. I get the feeling Ken Levine had some magnum opus about libertarian ideals vs nationalistic conservitism at their most extreme, both good and bad, and then a suit stepped in and made him change it into a kid's story where the vox populi are the downtrodden earnest good old boys underdogs and the religious establishment be cartoonishly racist jerks that are one Reichtag away from being nazis. The fact that there was no actual "bad guy" in Bioshock one is what made it so wonderfully memorable, i argue that Andrew Ryan was the protagonist of that game. The whole story of infinite reeks of intervention by people who had no idea what they're doing but have charts and the control over the investor dollars to back them up. What a waste of a brilliant setting and all its possibilities The ending and main theme of timelines and all that other 4d madness was pretty fuckin' cool though. I'm glad that survived mostly intact

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;51305539]the story felt woefully simplified to me. I get the feeling Ken Levine had some magnum opus about libertarian ideals vs nationalistic conservitism at their most extreme, both good and bad, and then a suit stepped in and made him change it into a kid's story where the vox populi are the downtrodden earnest good old boys underdogs and the religious establishment be cartoonishly racist jerks that are one Reichtag away from being nazis.[/QUOTE] You could've had a point if it weren't for the fact that in the second half of the game the Vox not only overthrow the Founders, but promptly go on a genocidal raid and pillage rampage against pretty much all non-Vox, torturing and murdering innocents caught in the crossfire for the kicks. They even murdered the gun makers in the third timeline once they got their guns, as an early hint at their violent vengeance and the tossing aside of ideals for the sake of blood. The story doesn't really paint Booker or Elizabeth in the right either. Booker [i]fucked up hard[/i] in the past while still thinking mostly of himself in the present until he got used to Elizabeth and realized more was at stake, and Elizabeth wittingly kills him to try to fix the timeline. While Elizabeth is horrified by what happens in Columbia, the both of them just try to brush aside the problem for their escape / revenge on Comstock, and if the entirety of Columbia's against them then so be it, they'll kill Founder and Vox alike to get what they want. Yeah, the story is full of wasted potential, but it's not anything like a 'kid's story' despite all the Disney Princess memes about Elizabeth. The only people you can even hope to consider 'good' are the Luteces seeing as they're manipulating the plot in favor of Booker, but even then [i]their timeline hijinks caused the plot[/i] and they clearly only observe and occasionally hint or mess around rather than actually try to fix anything directly as far as the cast knows.

[QUOTE=RikohZX;51305590]You could've had a point if it weren't for the fact that in the second half of the game the Vox not only overthrow the Founders, but promptly go on a genocidal raid and pillage rampage against pretty much all non-Vox, torturing and murdering innocents caught in the crossfire for the kicks. They even murdered the gun makers in the third timeline once they got their guns, as an early hint at their violent vengeance and the tossing aside of ideals for the sake of blood. The story doesn't really paint Booker or Elizabeth in the right either. Booker [i]fucked up hard[/i] in the past while still thinking mostly of himself in the present until he got used to Elizabeth and realized more was at stake, and Elizabeth wittingly kills him to try to fix the timeline. While Elizabeth is horrified by what happens in Columbia, the both of them just try to brush aside the problem for their escape / revenge on Comstock, and if the entirety of Columbia's against them then so be it, they'll kill Founder and Vox alike to get what they want. Yeah, the story is full of wasted potential, but it's not anything like a 'kid's story' despite all the Disney Princess memes about Elizabeth.[/QUOTE] So I know this is kinda tangential to the discussion at hand, but since you brought it up, I'd like to quickly chip in here. One of the reasons I love Bioshock Infinite so much is because of Booker, and more importantly, who he is. He isn't a voiceless protagonist whose past is only so strong as to justify the setting and whose personality is entirely for us to fill in. He isn't a patriotic soldier fighting for his country in a hostile territory. He isn't a handsome treasure hunter sucked into a zany adventure. He isn't a battle-hardened commander saving the galaxy from assured destruction. Booker is a grizzled, disheveled, disillusioned, alcoholic of a broken man. A traumatized soldier of a war in which his compatriots bullied him to the point he committed atrocities he could never reconcile with all in an effort to prove them wrong, who later became a thug who was paid for literally beating protesters and strikers. A man whose wife presumably died during childbirth, shattering what few whole fragments of his life were still good, spiraling him into an endless pit of drinking and gambling, that got so deep that he sold his own infant daughter to a stranger just to pay his debts. Going into Bioshock Infinite, Booker is not a hero. He's not a savior, or an icon. He is not an ideal. Booker is a washed up and broken down man. A loser, through and through. And that doesn't change throughout the course of the game. Elizabeth makes a point of remarking on his brutality, commenting on his nonchalance of shooting people and beating them to death. She often tries to hide it through politeness or changing the subject, but it is clear that she feels nothing short of disgust for what Booker is, even as she grows attached to the man himself. More than once she proclaims that Booker is a monster - once in anger, but several times more in a more subdued and subtle way, maybe not in as many words. And Booker himself knows it. He knows he is a monster who has done terrible things, and who has utterly and completely fucked up his life and the life of everyone he knows. And he hates himself for it. Booker has more depth as the protagonist than any other character in the game. Elizabeth's character, for all its development, is but a puddle compared to Booker, and Comstock, [sp]despite being an alternate version of Booker whose history is largely shared with him[/sp] still has only a fraction of the depth of Booker's character, with much of the history of "Comstock" himself being abstracted away to a few sparse audio-logs of rhetoric. Booker is one of the reasons I love Bioshock Infinite so much, and why I connect to the game infinitely more than the protagonist of Bioshock 1 or Bioshock 2. Even if I don't empathize with Booker, I can sympathize with him. He's just a man, in a place, doing a job, all while trying to deal with the baggage of his choices and their repercussions.

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;51305628]So I know this is kinda tangential to the discussion at hand, but since you brought it up, I'd like to quickly chip in here. One of the reasons I love Bioshock Infinite so much is because of Booker, and more importantly, who he is. He isn't a voiceless protagonist whose past is only so strong as to justify the setting and whose personality is entirely for us to fill in. He isn't a patriotic soldier fighting for his country in a hostile territory. He isn't a handsome treasure hunter sucked into a zany adventure. He isn't a battle-hardened commander saving the galaxy from assured destruction. Booker is a grizzled, disheveled, disillusioned, alcoholic of a broken man. A traumatized soldier of a war in which his compatriots bullied him to the point he committed atrocities he could never reconcile with all in an effort to prove them wrong, who later became a thug who was paid for literally beating protesters and strikers. A man whose wife presumably died during childbirth, shattering what few whole fragments of his life were still good, spiraling him into an endless pit of drinking and gambling, that got so deep that he sold his own infant daughter to a stranger just to pay his debts. Going into Bioshock Infinite, Booker is not a hero. He's not a savior, or an icon. He is not an ideal. Booker is a washed up and broken down man. A loser, through and through. And that doesn't change throughout the course of the game. Elizabeth makes a point of remarking on his brutality, commenting on his nonchalance of shooting people and beating them to death. She often tries to hide it through politeness or changing the subject, but it is clear that she feels nothing short of disgust for what Booker is, even as she grows attached to the man himself. More than once she proclaims that Booker is a monster - once in anger, but several times more in a more subdued and subtle way, maybe not in as many words. And Booker himself knows it. He knows he is a monster who has done terrible things, and who has utterly and completely fucked up his life and the life of everyone he knows. And he hates himself for it. Booker has more depth as the protagonist than any other character in the game. Elizabeth's character, for all its development, is but a puddle compared to Booker, and Comstock, [sp]despite being an alternate version of Booker whose history is largely shared with him[/sp] still has only a fraction of the depth of Booker's character, with much of the history of "Comstock" himself being abstracted away to a few sparse audio-logs of rhetoric. Booker is one of the reasons I love Bioshock Infinite so much, and why I connect to the game infinitely more than the protagonist of Bioshock 1 or Bioshock 2. Even if I don't empathize with Booker, I can sympathize with him. He's just a man, in a place, doing a job, all while trying to deal with the baggage of his choices and their repercussions.[/QUOTE] I just wish Booker could have been less 'Generic shooter man'. From his outfit to how he sounds, he's just [I]out of place.[/I] The trailer made it seem more like he'd be an older man that wore clothes that fit more in with the time period rather than dressing up what is essentially a stock grizzled white short brown haird modern man to look vaguely old timey. And he was voiced by Stephen Russell, who's voice had far more character to it in 5 seconds than Troy's did during his entire performance. Stephen fucking Russell and they just let him be a placeholder until they got Troy Baker

Nah, Booker is just clinically retarded. You were told two minutes ago specifically not to pick 77 you fucking mouthbreather.

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51311213]And he was voiced by Stephen Russell, who's voice had far more character to it in 5 seconds than Troy's did during his entire performance. Stephen fucking Russell and they just let him be a placeholder until they got Troy Baker[/QUOTE] That's honestly the worst change to me. Why would you drop Stephen Russell(someone who doesn't voice protagonists very often, aside from Garrett and now Corvo from Dishonored, but has a really cool sounding voice) for a voice actor who's in literally everything?

I've never played Infinite before, is it really that different from the demo in the op? I especially liked the tear with the horse went so far as to take them into the 80's and you could hear Tears for Fears playing in the background, and whatever was going on when he was floating to Elizabeth. Those are in the game right? Is it anything like what I just saw? The combat looks amazing too but from what everyones said so far it wasn't like that at all in the final game.

[QUOTE=LSK;51311528]I've never played Infinite before, is it really that different from the demo in the op? I particularly liked the tear that took them into the 80's and you could hear Tears for Fears, and whatever was going on when he was floating to Elizabeth. Those are in the game right? Is it anything what I just saw? The combat looks amazing too but from what everyones said so far it wasn't like that at all in the final game.[/QUOTE] While loose elements and design factors carry through, pretty much none of the events in the demo exist in the final game and the whole concept of the Founders vs. the Vox is more of a backseat to the plot about Booker and Elizabeth. Even more so, the Vox are just sort of suppressed minorities and workers who want to start a revolution but don't do shit until a plot point occurs and shortly thereafter they basically become palette swapped equivalents to the Founders you'd been fighting up to that point. None of that passive 'city in chaos as you pass through it', you're either in a non-combat section or everyone just tries to kill you. Tears also got downplayed into either plot-specific instances, or manipulating specific spots in the environment with the press of a button so you can distract enemies, get cover or extra ammo/weapons and so forth. Skylines were simplified into looping around the combat arenas (that's pretty much what they are) and being used for transitioning to other areas for progression. Combat was also simplified even compared to previous games. You have weapons and Vigors, which are your Plasmid equivalents, and you can purchase ammo and salts for refills as well as upgrades over the course of the game - but you only carry two weapons at a time, not counting your Skyhook melee, and while you keep all your Vigors and can quick switch them, it's also one equipped at a time. This means you're constantly switching up your guns due to a likely shortage of ammunition for it, and the Vox Populi in the later half of the game have their own gun variants with their own separate upgrades that you have to also contend with. Your health doesn't regenerate, but you have a shield system essentially that does, and while dying does cost you money on higher difficulties, there wasn't much consequence otherwise besides enemies getting their health refilled. There's no 'you can avoid combat through making the right decisions' moments, everything inevitably leads into either story or a gunfight. There's also this weird ass loot system that randomly gives you shirts and pants and stuff that give you different buffs, but it's so random and unpredictable that it's entirely plausible to play through the entire game without it ever mattering. While it's by no means a bad game for the final product, compared to what was shown before the entire final product reeks of being dumbed down and simplified in numerous ways from the grand visage that Columbia initially had, and like I said, the whole main conflict of the Founders and the Vox is effectively nothing more than an excuse for why you need to shoot things and have enemies throughout the game; even the concepts of racism and the implications on culture fall apart and feel like the writers just stopped caring about it all. The actual main plot barely concerns them overall, and by the ending they essentially stop mattering altogether. They somehow managed to turn a great concept into a weird mishmash of a linear arena shooter with very minor amounts of exploring for health and supplies that pretends it was bigger than it really is with its story.

[QUOTE=OpethRockr55;51304954]Bioshock changed a ton in development, too. More than Infinite. I remember when they talked about intricate systems such as the caste system (which were pretty much Big Daddies and Little Sisters, worked to a bigger scale and more castes like them); environmental affectations, such as being able to modify an area's air pressure to change acoustic properties or temperature to change behavioral patterns; and the enemies being straight up bugs with different powers. As someone with a great regard for System Shock 2, I was let down by what Bioshock offered as a result of that hype. It was fine it its own regard, but I still imagine what that original Bioshock would've been like.[/QUOTE] Remember when Splicers we're to be heavily mutated into these things? [t]http://www.bogleech.com/vgmonsters/bioshock-docroach.jpg[/t][t]http://www.bogleech.com/vgmonsters/bioshock-crabowar.jpg[/t][t]http://www.bogleech.com/vgmonsters/bioshock-shudderer.jpg[/t] [t]http://www.bogleech.com/vgmonsters/bioshock-screecher.jpg[/t][t]http://www.bogleech.com/vgmonsters/bioshock-shot.jpg[/t][t]http://www.bogleech.com/vgmonsters/bioshock-jabber.jpg[/t][t]http://www.bogleech.com/vgmonsters/bioshock-jellyman.jpg[/t] [URL="http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Category:BioShock_Concept_Art"]That isn't just the end of it, either.[/URL]

[QUOTE=Whomobile;51299820]I got Bioshock Infinite free with a Graphics card I brought. I haven't played any other Bioshock game and found it to be an OK shooter at worst. I think I would have a different opinion if I did play Bioshock 1/2 first. [video=youtube;jPb4oryoRMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPb4oryoRMw[/video][/QUOTE] what always got me and a friend laughing was that when he changes to a big daddy, he keeps the sweater on. So we imagined a gigantic big daddy with a big ass wool sweater on.

[QUOTE=codemaster85;51312448]what always got me and a friend laughing was that when he changes to a big daddy, he keeps the sweater on. So we imagined a gigantic big daddy with a big ass wool sweater on.[/QUOTE] It's a kevlar vest.

[QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;51312465]It's a kevlar vest.[/QUOTE] That cats get stuck on.

It might be that I am looking at this from too much of a Bioshock 1 perspective, but I just cannot stand how Bioshock infinite presents itself. In Bioshock there's a tense atmosphere, you practically feel like everything is going to cave in on you at any moment. In Bioshock Infinite it just feels really stupidly quirky, mostly because of the really stupidly written/rewritten plot. The worst part is that the original infinite trailer looked like it was going in the right direction.

[QUOTE=Thlis;51312907]It might be that I am looking at this from too much of a Bioshock 1 perspective, but I just cannot stand how Bioshock infinite presents itself. In Bioshock there's a tense atmosphere, you practically feel like everything is going to cave in on you at any moment. In Bioshock Infinite it just feels really stupidly quirky, mostly because of the really stupidly written/rewritten plot. The worst part is that the original infinite trailer looked like it was going in the right direction.[/QUOTE] Don't know why this post is getting dumbs since it has a lot of weight under the surface. In the first game with Rapture, the whole place was starting to become dilapidated and some places [I]were[/I] basically going to cave in any second, or otherwise got destroyed out of pure coincidence (good example in the beginning where the piece of the plane that Jack was in comes crashing into a bridge that you thought would be the right path to travel through, and begins to flood the entire section). It isn't until later in Infinite you get peppered with similarly tense moments of Columbia going in balls deep into collateral damage, with you being the receiver of everything if you weren't quick enough. Not only that, it also really doesn't have that same feeling of suspense, even though the setting itself is just as dangerous as being in the deep. Oh, and there were a number of moments in this game which flew over my suspension of disbelief (which is saying a lot for this series considering concepts like ADAM). Coupled with the fact that our (actual) protagonist's design is actually inspired by [I]Disney princesses[/I], Infinite as a whole feels more like a somewhat cartoonish action-adventure serial with slight survival horror elements (i.e: returning gameplay mechanics, the Songbird, Boys of Silence) than the full-on nightmare that the first game presented itself as. No, it doesn't matter if this was an intentional decision or not to have such a contrast for "artistic" reasons, its still unfitting considering the franchise's actual roots.

[QUOTE=Jutseph;51298809]oh my god. i've been talking about this topic for years. someone finally made a fucking video on it this actually depresses me. if you feel like hurting yourself tonight, watch this demo from e3 2011 [video]https://youtu.be/6WUt5dEMt_Y[/video][/QUOTE] There's something about the atmosphere and sound design in that trailer that just hits the spot.

[QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;51313668]Not only that, it also really doesn't have that same feeling of suspense, even though the setting itself is just as dangerous as being in the deep. [/QUOTE] I think a big problem with the setting not feeling as threatening as it could have been was the rail system. When the player and enemies routinely jump ludicrous distances while riding rail tracks, you start to lose any sense of danger.

The only thing I have a problem with in Infinite is the "twist ending". I thought that the rest of the story was pretty cool but then the nearly predictable twist of [sp]"You ARE the villain!!!!!!!(sorta)" soured the entire thing for me. The twist of Elizabeth being your daughter I actually really liked and did make me want to get Elizabeth out of there even more.[/sp] But then Elizabeth gets all weird and omniscient and the ending happens. I feel like the story would actually have payoff if they just rewarded the characters at the end.

[QUOTE=Thlis;51313761]I think a big problem with the setting not feeling as threatening as it could have been was the rail system. When the player and enemies routinely jump ludicrous distances while riding rail tracks, you start to lose any sense of danger.[/QUOTE] and even if you fall you just teleport back with some health gone. they should have done what Mirror's Edge did when you fall to your death - super distorted noises that get louder as you fall, smash cut to black, [I]wet crunch[/I]. that's the scariest falling to your death has ever been in a game, and they did literally the exact opposite.