JonTron releases a statement about the controversy - General

[QUOTE=simkas;51982654]Or maybe people just don't care about his opinions because they're not in any way visible in any of his content? There's no "guilt" there of any kind, those things are completely disconnected from one another.[/QUOTE] It's just my guess at why so many people are sympathizing with his wormy non-apology.

[QUOTE=simkas;51982654]Or maybe people just don't care about his opinions because they're not in any way visible in any of his content? There's no "guilt" there of any kind, those things are completely disconnected from one another.[/QUOTE] I mean just to be fair, if you dig into a lot of media people, a huge chunk of them turn out to be horrible people in some way or another. You can just enjoy what you enjoy from somebody, there's no need to throw up these people as idols.

[QUOTE=bitches;51982485]I don't see any reason to give JonTron magical benefit of the doubt above anyone else. I don't have to forgive him or embrace his content again just because he clarifies [I]why[/I] he said that black people are genetically predisposed to a life of crime and shouldn't be integrated into the gene pool. It feels like people are looking for an excuse to forgive or excuse him so they can watch his videos without guilt. [editline]19th March 2017[/editline] oh, and don't forget about preventing the death of the White Race at the hands of the inferior minorities[/QUOTE] Now that's misconstrued. Jon misinterpreted a study and even then - he quoted it as a statistical fact. He never said anything about what he thinks the statistical fact represents. And regarding the gene pool statement, he never got to finish his sentence. He meant that with slow cultural assimilation will also come genetic assimilation, meaning that a couple generations from now you wouldn't be able to discern ethnically who migrated here two generations ago and who didn't. Seeing this video now, I see that by that he meant that they would no longer be identified as that ethnic group - rather they would simply be identified as Americans. Were his statements badly worded and untimely? Definitely. Is he a white supremacist like you claim he is? No. Yes, the debate left a bad taste and he has much to improve on. But it's not at all unforgiveable.

Did anyone actually disprove this? [url]https://sanford.duke.edu/articles/wealth-doesn%E2%80%99t-protect-us-blacks-greater-chance-incarceration-prof-william-darity-jr[/url] I didn't care enough to follow it too hard.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51982663]I mean just to be fair, if you dig into a lot of media people, a huge chunk of them turn out to be horrible people in some way or another. You can just enjoy what you enjoy from somebody, there's no need to throw up these people as idols.[/QUOTE] I was gonna say that, yeah, there's a lot of actors that are great actors but are actually real pieces of shit in real life, but that doesn't stop them from being good actors and being enjoyable to watch.

[QUOTE=gokiyono;51982636]How so?[/QUOTE] Other than how he's a complete asswipe who we now know can easily be provoked if the right buttons are pushed? The guy is a classic example of a bitch in sheep's clothing; common sense tells me not to hang with a person like that at all for a countless number of reasons. The guy may say he respects other's opinions but after taking out his frustrations in the worst way possible on random Youtube animators, the validity of his arguments is now looking to be completely zilch.

[QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;51982680]Other than how he's a complete asswipe who we now know can easily be provoked if the right buttons are pushed? The guy is a classic example of a bitch in sheep's clothing; common sense tells me not to hang with a person like that at all for a countless number of reasons. The guy may say he respects other's opinions but after taking out his frustrations in the worst way possible on random Youtube animators, the validity of his arguments is now looking to be completely zilch.[/QUOTE] the validity of arguments against racism are dependent upon how dickish he is to youtube animators?

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51982647] The weirdest part is when he defends what he said as being true, while saying that he was backed into corners and fallaciously said stuff he doesn't believe in. Seems a little.... odd to say the least.[/QUOTE] It's what most people do when they find themselves at the mercy of public backlash tbh. They don't go back on their opinions, they don't really learn much or do much in ways of an apology beyond offering something like "I'm sorry you were offended". Which is half-assed and is only to appease the people who take videos like this at surface value. Honestly I got tired of Jon's content independent of this fiasco but a few months ago I would very much separate his weird opinions and his content because I still liked it. But I feel like even if I did like the content still it'd be extremely hard to have much respect for him. I dunno, I'm never a fan of "I'm sorry people got uncomfortable" or "I'm sorry you took it the wrong way" sort of videos. It's a waste of time imo.

I think the main lesson we all learned from this is to never ever try to wing a debate.

[QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;51982680]Other than how he's a complete asswipe who we now know can easily be provoked if the right buttons are pushed? The guy is a classic example of a bitch in sheep's clothing; common sense tells me not to hang with a person like that at all for a countless number of reasons. The guy may say he respects other's opinions but after taking out his frustrations in the worst way possible on random Youtube animators, the validity of his arguments is now looking to be completely zilch.[/QUOTE] But that was an incident on Twitter that was handled poorly by both sides. That was like an 180 degree turn compared to how he handled the debate with Jon. [editline]19th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51982695]If anything he doubled down. I didn't watch the debate, but from what I read afterward JonTron is a bad debater who couldn't bring his points across while Destiny tried to dog him into making "bad" statements. I could be wrong about that summary, but I personally wouldn't recant my political views for being a bad debater.[/QUOTE] I don't think Destiny tried to dog JonTron into anything other than explaining his position

He's still a racist in my book

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;51982676]Did anyone actually disprove this? [URL]https://sanford.duke.edu/articles/wealth-doesn’t-protect-us-blacks-greater-chance-incarceration-prof-william-darity-jr[/URL] I didn't care enough to follow it too hard.[/QUOTE] This is chance of incarceration, not exactly related to crimes committed. And even if it was crimes committed - it shows nothing regarding racial or genetic tendencies. For example (and this is only hypothetical but you can see how it can explain the results of this study without having racial conclusions): What if the chance of incarceration for people who went from poor to wealthy in a short timespan is the same for all races? Wealthy and black people have a higher chance to belong to that category - simply due to the history of America. They had far less opportunities to stabilize their social standing than their white counterparts.

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;51982676]Did anyone actually disprove this? [url]https://sanford.duke.edu/articles/wealth-doesn%E2%80%99t-protect-us-blacks-greater-chance-incarceration-prof-william-darity-jr[/url] I didn't care enough to follow it too hard.[/QUOTE] All I picked up regarding that was the immediate counter-argument of "incarcerations =/= crimes". If you assume that the justice system is blind to race, then you can extrapolate from this study that black people are more prone to committing crime (and subsequently being incarcerated for it) than white people. If you instead assume that there's racial discrimination affecting the justice system, then you can extrapolate from this study that black people are being judged more harshly than white people. Also idk if it was this study, but around the time this whole drama started people found a single study on the first Google page talking about higher incarceration rates for rich black people, and it turned out it compared too few individuals from two separate cities and thus wasn't exactly representative.

:snip:

[QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;51982680]Other than how he's a complete asswipe who we now know can easily be provoked if the right buttons are pushed? The guy is a classic example of a bitch in sheep's clothing; common sense tells me not to hang with a person like that at all for a countless number of reasons. The guy may say he respects other's opinions but after taking out his frustrations in the worst way possible on random Youtube animators, the validity of his arguments is now looking to be completely zilch.[/QUOTE] I am pretty certain you watched zero original footage and only watched other people's opinions on it. How badly informed can you be. Destiny never called Jon Tron any names or baited him during the conversation, he only asked for clarification. If Jon Tron is unable to defend his position properly and sperges out, that's on him, not anyone else. From Destiny himself: [quote]I'm definitely not perfect. I've been a bit "on edge" over the past few days, receiving thousands of tweets from a ton of edgy nazi/alt-righters, lots of DMs, e-mails, waking up multiple times over the past few nights with my 2-fact buzzing like crazy on my phone with people trying to hack my accounts, some dipshit (roguestar?) trying to dox me on Twitter, multiple 1000+ comment threads going up about me across multiple subreddits, 3-4 which were on KiA, and finally a specially prepared video by NakedApe that takes a ton of bizarre, out-dated, out-of-context clips about me to turn it into a "hit piece." I also get a lot of this bizarre stuff quoted at me as insults, so I literally had half the community of "artists" on YouTube tonight throwing at me my childhood friend's suicide as a way to "get me" because of an argument with with a YouTube artist. I'm not trying to give excuses, but it's a little more than I'm used to dealing with so I was pretty on edge. Combined with the fact that that Pebble fucker was literally waiting at the ready for me to say a single thing that he could assemble the batsquad with... -_- [/quote] and [quote]This got blown into a much more massive thing than I ever thought it would be. The psychicpebbles dude is (apparently) a fan of JonTron and has been needling me over the past few days on Twitter, not really saying anything of great substance, but I could tell he was just waiting to "get me" on something. After my discussion with Sargon today, he fired off something about how I didn't understand the plight of blue collar workers.[/quote] Then when you are at the peak of your annoyance, that one guy that is talking on his high horse is once again miscontruing your point. So you talk about that one guy in particular and instead of it being about him, he keeps his entire legion to wall on you as well, again based of misconstruing your point. [b]I don't agree with Destiny on plenty of things, I think he enjoys any attention he gets and he is not a very principled person. However, the way some reacted, especially like you, shows how little people look into stuff and just take anything at face value.[/b]

To refer to my own post(And those who responded), what I got from that is cultural issues stick, black people are the majority of this cultural disadvantage due to various laws and situations in history, but that doesn't mean it's not made up of black(or other minorities). So why is it wrong to just say blacks tend to commit more crime as a generality, or more accurately why do people instantly jump to white supremacist, racist when someone voices it? Which also goes to another point of Jontrons, anyone who says anything against a minority or otherwise downplays the percieved injustices, racist or not, is generally labelled ar a racist or alt right, which I bleieve he had a solid point on it. Also Destiny is a cunt who does his best to shit all over the other guy rather than try and work something out.

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;51982741]To refer to my own post(And those who responded), what I got from that is cultural issues stick, black people are the majority of this cultural disadvantage due to various laws and situations in history, but that doesn't mean it's not made up of black(or other minorities). So why is it wrong to just say blacks tend to commit more crime as a generality, or more accurately why do people instantly jump to white supremacist, racist when someone voices it?[/QUOTE] Beats me. That's what I'm trying to dispute here. [B]Edit:[/B] Actually, there is a logical reason - it was a pretty untimely comment in such a debate. You could argue that Jon said it to point his disagreement with the whole categorization philosophy, and you could also argue that he truly believes that the fact is not only true, but stems from racial background. The most likely meaning, however, is that Jon was stressed as fuck and said it because it's the first thing that came up to his head in reaction to Destiny's question, and didn't have a solidified opinion about the matter to begin with. (Basically, he was talking out of his ass)

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;51982741]To refer to my own post(And those who responded), what I got from that is cultural issues stick, black people are the majority of this cultural disadvantage due to various laws and situations in history, but that doesn't mean it's not made up of black(or other minorities). So why is it wrong to just say blacks tend to commit more crime as a generality, or more accurately why do people instantly jump to white supremacist, racist when someone voices it? Which also goes to another point of Jontrons, anyone who says anything against a minority or otherwise downplays the percieved injustices, racist or not, is generally labelled ar a racist or alt right, which I bleieve he had a solid point on it. Also Destiny is a cunt who does his best to shit all over the other guy rather than try and work something out.[/QUOTE] Because saying "blacks commit more crime" is directly counter productive to equality and acceptance movement. By saying that you portray blacks in a negative light, thus breeding racism.

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;51982741]To refer to my own post(And those who responded), what I got from that is cultural issues stick, black people are the majority of this cultural disadvantage due to various laws and situations in history, but that doesn't mean it's not made up of black(or other minorities). So why is it wrong to just say blacks tend to commit more crime as a generality, or more accurately why do people instantly jump to white supremacist, racist when someone voices it?[/QUOTE] It's not, because that's just a statistical fact that blacks in America per capita commit more crime (unqualified of other variables.) However, often that truth is surrounded by lots of misinformation (e.g. on the causes) and very shitty intentions when somebody is presenting it.

Ok because my whole point is what he said 'Strictly' has some backing, and a lot of people are tearing him a new one for that one statement, even if he explained/worded it horrifically poorly, Im not really commenting on much else he's saying.

[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;51982734]*destiny shit*[/QUOTE] When did I ever say that Destiny baited Jon? All I said was that he was an awful person to be around was all. Sorry, but I just can't get behind anyone in this situation; not Jon, not Psychicpebbles, not the people milking this shit for attention, and certainly not Destiny.

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;51982767]Ok because my whole point is what he said 'Strictly' has some backing, and a lot of people are tearing him a new one for that one statement, even if he explained/worded it horrifically poorly, Im not really commenting on much else he's saying.[/QUOTE] Which statement exactly and in which context? If it's his statement on rich blacks committing more crime than poor whites, that was just entirely false (people dug, and the most likely cause was him egregiously misreading an article) and used to promote his weird views on genetics.

At least this top rated comment is loved by Jon: [T]https://i.imgur.com/8pUtDgr.jpg[/T] It's too bad the algorithm still places worse posts above.

I think Sky made the best comment there: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/YBaTdkc.png[/IMG] (I'm late, whatever.) I feel like this whole debacle, as well as Jon not really elaborating on the points or false statistics, is only deepening that left vs right/us vs them mentality. Jon himself said that the reason why we our political discourse is the way it is is because we refuse to communicate on ideas. However, the response to this entire mess shows how that isn't going to change anytime soon. All it really did was reinforce this idea that the right are victims to be big-bad liberals trying to silence (criticize) them, regardless of what they say.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51982772]Which statement exactly and in which context? If it's his statement on rich blacks committing more crime than poor whites, that was just entirely false (people dug, and the most likely cause was him egregiously misreading an article) and used to promote his weird views on genetics.[/QUOTE] Again, he has no weird views on genetics to begin with. That's people putting words in his mouth. I already explained what he probably meant regarding the genetic pool statement. Still, I recommend you not to take what I said as 'the correct interpretation' - I also doubt my own words. The best thing to do is to look at my take on this, and listen to the gene pool part of the debate once again (including the things leading up to that statement, otherwise you're just taking it out of context). I know it'll be painful to listen to it again, Jon is seriously making a fool of himself there. But hopefully you'll be able to conclude that he's merely a fool and not a white supremacist.

[QUOTE=AbioFlesh;51982782]I think Sky made the best comment there: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/YBaTdkc.png[/IMG] (I'm late, whatever.) I feel like this whole debacle, as well as Jon not really elaborating on the points or false statistics, is only deepening that left vs right/us vs them mentality. Jon himself said that the reason why we our political discourse is the way it is is because we refuse to communicate on ideas. However, the response to this entire mess shows how that isn't going to change anytime soon. All it really did was reinforce this idea that the right are victims to be big-bad liberals trying to silence (criticize) them, regardless of what they say.[/QUOTE] The problem with right vs left is that they fundamentally disagree with each other on a lot of core ideas. No debate or listening to each other will change that. Both sides think they're right and opposition is wrong. You might convince some to go from one side to another, but the divide is quite even. I just don't see how communication can possibly change any of this. As long as such divide exists there can't be peace because of ideological differences.

[QUOTE=mrkaki;51982794]Again, he has no weird views on genetics to begin with. That's people putting words in his mouth. I already explained what he probably meant regarding the genetic pool statement. Still, I recommend you not to take what I said as 'the correct interpretation' - I also doubt my own words. The best thing to do is to look at my take on this, and listen to the gene pool part of the debate once again (including the things leading up to that statement, otherwise you're just taking it out of context).[/QUOTE] I'd think the one that decided to write an elaborate explanation on what jontron actually meant with that statement is the one stuffing words into his mouth. Of course, him being contradictory and wishy-washy doesn't help us know what he truly believes. This is why I hope he actually doesn't stop the politics and tries again. Either he clarifies that yes, he's a "race realist" or whatever, or he clarifies that he fucked up and said something he doesn't believe in.

[QUOTE=Pascall;51982644]This is, ultimately a non-apology to me tbh. I'm glad he addressed what happened but it still seems insincere. Or like it's one of those situations where they're not really sorry, they're just sorry that they got caught. I don't care if people watch his videos tbh, but I'm still not interested in either him or his content anymore.[/QUOTE] He tried to clarify his beliefs rather than give in to everyone thinking he's some sort of monster. I'll give him more credit for this video than the usual "An apology..." videos most internet personalities put out.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51982797]The problem with right vs left is that they fundamentally disagree with each other on a lot of core ideas. No debate or listening to each other will change that. Both sides think they're right and opposition is wrong. You might convince some to go from one side to another, but the divide is quite even. I just don't see how communication can possibly change any of this. As long as such divide exists there can't be peace because of ideological differences.[/QUOTE] Agreed. I do think it's a good thing that we at least can have any sort of substantive discussion. But people really don't seem to pay any mind about the issues and more on this tribal game. You see this a lot in our last election cycle. It's not about what the issues are and what they mean for us, it's a sport and everybody is rooting for their own team. Nobody cares what what so-and-so is going to do to our economy, all that matters is that they get to drink x-political group's tears.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51982805]I'd think the one that decided to write an elaborate explanation on what jontron actually meant with that statement is the one stuffing words into his mouth. Of course, him being contradictory and wishy-washy doesn't help us know what he truly believes. This is why I hope he actually doesn't stop the politics and tries again. Either he clarifies that yes, he's a "race realist" or whatever, or he clarifies that he fucked up and said something he doesn't believe in.[/QUOTE] The point is we'll never truly know since he never got to finish his sentence, so why are we defaulting it to the worst case scenario?