JonTron releases a statement about the controversy - General

[QUOTE=paul simon;51985398]Not really[/QUOTE] id love for u to clarify this. that racism is logical

[QUOTE=Boaraes;51985049]Sky didn't think what Jon said in Destiny's stream was right. He admitted to blindly defending him without listening to what he said. I think it's worthy to note that you have a black guy who is still Jon's friend and doesn't think he's actually a racist because he obviously didn't give much thought into expanding what he really meant. Also, I would implore everyone to watch Sargon and Destiny's discussion because Sargon definitely does a better job explaining why white people shouldn't be criticized for not wanting to become a minority. [video=youtube;j_y7ZZmYVPA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_y7ZZmYVPA[/video] To be honest, Destiny shows his true colors in this debate at 2:22:45. He just can't stop himself from strawmanning when he doesn't get an argument. Not to mention the whole "Animator's have a really easy job and are not allowed to complain" rhetoric. I think Destiny lost his fucking mind.[/QUOTE] I really dislike the narrative that gets pushed a lot (which Destiny seems to agree with) that filmmakers, gamemakers, and the like NEED to write in more female and/or minority main characters in general and don't understand why someone who's neither might want to write about something they have a little more experience in.

[QUOTE=Krissy;51985654]I really dislike the narrative that gets pushed a lot (which Destiny seems to agree with) that filmmakers, gamemakers, and the like NEED to write in more female and/or minority main characters in general and don't understand why someone who's neither might want to write about something they have a little more experience in.[/QUOTE] They shouldnt be forced to, but what's wrong with encouraging them to do so, either through cultural changes or company/government programs? Especially when this provides a marked benefit to our society as a whole.

[QUOTE=Sheer Visor;51984891]How did a black dude like Sky listen to Jon rant for like 30minutes about how the black race is genetically predisposed to crime and other bad shit, and go "hmm yes it's just le SJW boogeyman hating Jon" WHAT[/QUOTE] because black people aren't a hivemind, for starters

[QUOTE=Boaraes;51985049]Sky didn't think what Jon said in Destiny's stream was right. He admitted to blindly defending him without listening to what he said. I think it's worthy to note that you have a black guy who is still Jon's friend and doesn't think he's actually a racist because he obviously didn't give much thought into expanding what he really meant. Also, I would implore everyone to watch Sargon and Destiny's discussion because Sargon definitely does a better job explaining why white people shouldn't be criticized for not wanting to become a minority.[/QUOTE] Quite frankly I think he utterly failed to do so. I think that throughout Destiny made thoroughly more convincing arguments, even when they agreed. So much of Sargon's rhetoric is based on gut intuition and when faced with actual questions or data he falls back on "I dont know! I don't know anything!" If you could outline where you think he makes a convincing argument for whites not wanting to become a minority I'd love to hear it, because all I heard was Sargon stating that minorities were inherently subject to oppression and marginalization which is factually untrue (see: drawing divides on wealth or status instead of race) and completely ignoring the historical impact that has led to current racial dynamics. And perhaps the reason Sky is defending and standing by Jon is because he's been his friend for years while being totally ignorant of his views? He's more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's emotionally attached to their friendship and has an obvious bias towards him because of it. And even then, he had serious concerns with Jon's remarks. [QUOTE]To be honest, Destiny shows his true colors in this debate at 2:22:45. He just can't stop himself from strawmanning when he doesn't get an argument. Not to mention the whole "Animator's have a really easy job and are not allowed to complain" rhetoric. I think Destiny lost his fucking mind.[/QUOTE] If it takes him until the last 5 minutes of an over 2 and a half hour debate to show his "true colors" then maybe those aren't his true colors and are actually an outlier from his regular behavior during dicussions? Maybe he was just thoroughly frustrated with the density and inability to consider other viewpoints that Sargon had shown for 2 before that point. If you're going to completely dismiss all data and socio-political research behind phenomenon then do you really deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore? [editline]20th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985673]because influencing art in any form outside what the artist wants waters down what we consider art? if the artist doesnt want their art to represent something to do with gender then they can pick whatever they want to represent characters/etc[/QUOTE] Representation doesn't make the entire art piece about gender especially when it's as minute of a thing as the gender of a lead role in a movie or a videogame in which it has absolutely no bearing on the content of the piece. If the character of the work is intrinsically tied to the gender then that's fine, nobody is going to force you to change that. But having things like a female lead in a major Star Wars production when, accounting for all other factors, it makes no difference on the final product, should be applauded. And, again, nobody is FORCING Lucasfilm to make this decision. It's based on the changes of the prevailing cultural attitudes about gender roles and how they're represented in media.

[QUOTE=Diet Kane;51985679]because black people aren't a hivemind, for starters[/QUOTE] That's not what I'm saying? I'm saying that it's really fucking suspicious that a guy with a lot of history for being extremely vocal about social/political issues affecting black dudes, who made a 20 minute rant on the satirical usage of "niggerfaggot", is letting a guy that spent 30 minutes ranting about blacks having inferior genetics slide?

[QUOTE=Pascall;51982644]This is, ultimately a non-apology to me tbh. I'm glad he addressed what happened but it still seems insincere. Or like it's one of those situations where they're not really sorry, they're just sorry that they got caught. I don't care if people watch his videos tbh, but I'm still not interested in either him or his content anymore.[/QUOTE] This is a super entitled opinion. Imagine trying to enjoy any movie or TV show if you have my political views. I think that Hollywood is home to people with some of the worst political opinions I've ever heard and these actors espouse their views all the fucking time. But I'm able to separate that from their work. Obviously you can watch or not watch whoever you want and I don't really care, but I think its silly.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51985703]This is a super entitled opinion. Imagine trying to enjoy any movie or TV show if you have my political views. I think that Hollywood is home to people with some of the worst political opinions I've ever heard and these actors espouse their views all the fucking time. But I'm able to separate that from their work. Obviously you can watch or not watch whoever you want and I don't really care, but I think its silly.[/QUOTE] I already said that I grew to not like his content independent of his political opinions, you doofus. Maybe read more of the thread.

[QUOTE=Pascall;51985706]I already said that I grew to not like his content independent of his political opinions, you doofus. Maybe read more of the thread.[/QUOTE] I didn't see your other post. My point stands in general though.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51985703]This is a super entitled opinion. Imagine trying to enjoy any movie or TV show if you have my political views. I think that Hollywood is home to people with some of the worst political opinions I've ever heard and these actors espouse their views all the fucking time. But I'm able to separate that from their work. Obviously you can watch or not watch whoever you want and I don't really care, but I think its silly.[/QUOTE] Hollywood actors don't tend to spourt racist shit though, which is different to opposing political views.

People can absolutely choose not to support a content creator if that content creator harbors harmful or hateful opinions towards certain members of their audience and to insinuate that that's a silly stance to take is being blissfully unaware of how damaging it is to have a favorite or even a moderately-liked content creator express these opinions without considering that these members of their audience can be hurt by them. If one of my favorite Youtubers came out and said that they saw Mexicans or Mexican-Americans as lazy, no-good members of society then I'm absolutely not gonna support them because why the hell am I gonna support someone who feels that way about me? I'm under no obligation to do so and neither should anyone else be. You can't assume to know everyone's feelings on the matter or assume that someone's audience is all the same demographic.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51985666]They shouldnt be forced to, but what's wrong with encouraging them to do so, either through cultural changes or company/government programs? Especially when this provides a marked benefit to our society as a whole.[/QUOTE] I honestly don't think encouragement for writers or artists to represent characters of their own race/gender or to represent characters that aren't a member of their race/gender is a good idea. I believe encouraging writers/artists to write about whatever they want to is the best thing to do. I also believe male writers representing more male protagonists in their work is completely natural considering they've lived their whole life as a man and thoroughly know what that experience is like, the same way black authours would be naturally more likey to write black characters. I don't believe there's anything inherently wrong with that.

[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;51985715]Hollywood actors don't tend to spourt racist shit though, which is different to opposing political views.[/QUOTE] How so?

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985714]i feel like you grossly misunderstood what i was trying to say but thats probably my fault in the end for trying to convey something while exhausted never did i say anything about 'forcing' but if you think external influence of someones work, which is meant to be an expression created by themselves mind you, doesnt end up removing what makes it what it is then you are free to have that view i just harshly disagree with it[/QUOTE] Art is inherently influenced by culture and is often a direct reflection or expression of it. If the culture of a society does not deliniate that the protagonist of a certain type of film should be male or female, then we won't see these distinctions in the art of that culture.

[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;51985715]Hollywood actors don't tend to spourt racist shit though, which is different to opposing political views.[/QUOTE] hasn't mel gibson railed against the jews a couple times? lol there's not really any right or wrong reason to dislike someone, your personal preferences can be as arbitrary as you want. the line is crossed when you expect them to change to suit you or except everyone else to share your preferences

[QUOTE=Destroyox;51985190]I don't understand why some Americans are so scared of whites becoming the minority when tons of American culture comes from other ethnicities.[/QUOTE] I mean, I know that as a "white Caucasian" my background is filled with multitudes of various races and cultures of European and even other immigrant decent to the point of it being homogeneous and I can just [I]state[/I] that I am "white" in talks and official documents like job applications instead of the part English, Irish, Thai- and whatever are the probable ten other backgrounds that make me up... But the other guys are [I]brown[/I] so... I mean come on I gotta use smart words to justify THAT ickyness.

[QUOTE=Krissy;51985727]I honestly don't think encouragement for writers or artists to represent characters of their own race/gender or to represent characters that aren't a member of their race/gender is a good idea. I believe encouraging writers/artists to write about whatever they want to is the best thing to do. I also believe male writers representing more male protagonists in their work is completely natural considering they've lived their whole life as a man and thoroughly know what that experience is like, the same way black authours would be naturally more likey to write black characters. I don't believe there's anything inherently wrong with that.[/QUOTE] Encouragement is a bad word for what I was trying to say, I think. When someone makes the lead of a video game a female, that's of their own volition. But they may have been influenced by the culture that they're surrounded by that says that representation of females in artistic mediums is important. They may hold these values themselves as a result of that cultural attitude. Indeed, there isn't anything inherently wrong with people writing characters reflective of their own experiences, and that's led to some of the best written and most iconic characters and works of our time. What we would argue is that more equal representation in the creation and distribution of art would allow for a more representative expression of all races, cultures, genders, etc. in art when currently it's heavily biased towards cis, white men in a disproportionate fashion. Representation and expression is a two-way street. If girls are inspired by or identify with fictional characters like them (how many girls have you seen wearing disney princess costumes or boys wearing superhero costumes? Look up the Scully effect for more info on this phenomenon) then they may be more likely to take up those occupations and then write in or express their own life experiences in their work.

[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;51984992]When you're asking him to apologize for something he's attempting to explain he hasn't done (be racist), then yes, I think it is. [editline]20th March 2017[/editline] These are the two big ones people seem to be getting hung up on, and I'm pretty sure if you just pay attention to his words you'll catch on. It's been made 100% crystal clear that he's misinterpreted studies in relation to crime when it came to the rich blacks vs poor whites argument. You literally cannot fault a guy for expressing a statistic he honestly thought was correct, even if it has a shitty implication to it. Maybe he should apologize for misreading that? idk people probably still wouldn't be happy. Now, the big one. Drum roll. Him being worried about the gene pool of whites? [I]Not racist.[/I] [B]Super[/B] fucked up and ignorant, but not racist, at least from where I'm standing. I couldn't care less if you're so obsessed with your own race that you don't want to see it disappear, plenty of people of other races have similar concerns. What you guys think he's saying is that he doesn't want any dirty blacks mingling with his white women and turning all the pure, glorious whities darker. But what he actually means, is that he doesn't want to see the white race disappear. Again, to me, this is just super ignorant. Really dumb and regressive views. But not maliciously racist, and nothing he should be obligated to apologize for. He doesn't realize the benefits of the gene pools mixing, or he values the mere existence of different races over those benefits. But again, he doesn't think that any race is inferior to any other. He doesn't think any race is predisposed to any sort of crime. He's made this stuff pretty clear at this point, I think. The fact that I've had such a hard time typing this (particularly the sentence "being worried about the gene pool of whites is not racist") somewhat proves his point he's trying to make in the 'apology' video, I think.[/QUOTE] wow it's almost like racists are like that because they're misinformed and not "just because lol" racism is built on the perpetuation of ignorance, especially through the use of fake statistics. if you use that statistic in an argument and it turns out to be bullshit, you should apologize like an adult and not blame it on a "miscommunication" or the other side for "blowing things out of proportion". or are you the kind of person who never apologizes for mistakes because "you didn't mean it"? some bible thumping redneck says that letting mexicans and blacks breed is a problem because it'll cause the death of the white race, but i guess he doesn't get an easy out because he's not jontron. where are the people lining up to defend kkk members because other people don't understand their point of view? where are the people willing to give hugs to an ISIS member who beheaded an entire family because he was only "misinformed", had the ill fortune to mingle with the "wrong crowd", and trying to do the right thing in his eyes? surely he isn't a bad person? jesus at that point why bother ever apologizing for anything? maybe jon [I]should[/I] go into politics because he deflects blame like a pro and people eat it right up

[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51985734]Because of the inherent advantages to being a majority I wonder, will "the left" crusade for whites when we're a minority in 30 years?[/QUOTE] If white people are marginalized and deeply affected by discriminatory practices both now and throughout the history of that society as a result then yes. [editline]20th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Pantz Master;51985703]This is a super entitled opinion. Imagine trying to enjoy any movie or TV show if you have my political views. I think that Hollywood is home to people with some of the worst political opinions I've ever heard and these actors espouse their views all the fucking time. But I'm able to separate that from their work. Obviously you can watch or not watch whoever you want and I don't really care, but I think its silly.[/QUOTE] I disagree. I already do not support creators or artists that espouse harmful views because by supporting them, either financially or in terms of notoriety, I am elevating their platform and giving them influence, which I think is incredibly irresponsible and selfish. By supporting JonTron from here-on, I would be giving him more of a platform to influence others (who may be very impressionable teens or otherwise) and spread those beliefs that would result in the marginalization and oppression of large groups of people. Jon's views would not have been heard by anyone had it not been for the massive platform he had gained as a result of his art, and it's indisputable that people have been influenced by the views that he's expressed.

[QUOTE=Xubs;51985742]racism isnt [I]just[/I] a political view, spreading it actively perpetuates ideas that result in marginalization. racism itself is the idea that certain people are inherently inferior which itself is marginalization. its a far cry from just saying "the economy should be unregulated"[/QUOTE] You're not giving me a good argument here. There is no logical difference between the racism you described and wanting to deregulate the economy as views.

biases are a convenient tool because provides a shortcut for people to quickly form an opinion and pick a hill to die on without having to do anything complex like using their brain to think for once in their life "i like the content this person produces so they must be a good person" "i don't like the content this person produces so they're actually the devil" "i had a bad experience with a black person so therefore all black people are bad" it's all the same shit

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985762]i mean no? this is an incredibly huge sweeping statement right there[/QUOTE] How is it not? I suppose you could argue that not all art is, as some is a more internal reflection of personal thoughts, attitudes and feelings, but even then I would argue that those attitudes, feelings, and thoughts and they way that they are expressed are influenced by culture. Art is both part of culture and is influenced by it as well. Could you refute that other than just dismissing the nature of it?

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985762]i mean no? this is an incredibly huge sweeping statement right there[/QUOTE] It really isn't. You are shaped by your environment, and so the art you produce is shaped by it as well.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985714] but if you think external influence of someones work, which is meant to be an expression created by themselves mind you, doesnt end up removing what makes it what it is then you are free to have that view i just harshly disagree with it[/QUOTE] that's completely ridiculous. unless the artist is a deaf mute who can't feel anything, their entire life experience is an external influence on their work a painting is no less valuable because the painter took their friend's advice to use one color over the other. societal and cultural pressures are no different

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985783]art has influenced culture, which has lead to it feeding back into art sure but i just find it to be an incredibly dangerous statement to say that art "inherantly" takes influence from culture you can argue that the creators life leads into his work, which is obviously true, but just because they live in the culture of their time doesnt mean that their work is based on and has to follow or disect the culture[/QUOTE] It doesn't have to be based on it or has to dissect it or even directly convey or express it, but to say that it isn't influenced by it in any way is absurd. [QUOTE]if the world is going through rapid shifts between gender rights that in no way means any artist should be pushed/influenced/forced/whatEVER into representing that in their art for any reason other than they want to express it in their own way[/QUOTE] My point is that being influenced by culture and expressing things in their own way are not mutually exclusive. If someone is voluntarily making the lead of the new Star Wars movie female, they aren't brainwashed by the fempire, they've been influenced by a culture that values representation of underrepresented groups while still doing so voluntarily. [QUOTE]again though, incredibly tired so should probably leave this discussion alone on this point since i doubt im being entirely coherant[/QUOTE] That's fine. I appreciate your perspective!

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985783]art has influenced culture, which has lead to it feeding back into art sure but i just find it to be an incredibly dangerous statement to say that art "inherantly" takes influence from culture you can argue that the creators life leads into his work, which is obviously true, but just because they live in the culture of their time doesnt mean that their work is based on and has to follow or disect the culture if the world is going through rapid shifts between gender rights that in no way means any artist should be pushed/influenced/forced/whatEVER into representing that in their art for any reason other than they want to express it in their own way again though, incredibly tired so should probably leave this discussion alone on this point since i doubt im being entirely coherant[/QUOTE] but you're only bringing this up because you dislike the push for representation, as much or as little as you would like to admit, not because you genuinely believe that external pressures are a problem. only [I]this specific[/I] pressure is a problem to you. if your favorite musician was convinced to change their styles due to external pressures and you like their new style, you would not be calling it a problem

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985783]art has influenced culture, which has lead to it feeding back into art sure but i just find it to be an incredibly dangerous statement to say that art "inherantly" takes influence from culture you can argue that the creators life leads into his work, which is obviously true, but just because they live in the culture of their time doesnt mean that their work is based on and has to follow or disect the culture if the world is going through rapid shifts between gender rights that in no way means any artist should be pushed/influenced/forced/whatEVER into representing that in their art for any reason other than they want to express it in their own way again though, incredibly tired so should probably leave this discussion alone on this point since i doubt im being entirely coherant[/QUOTE] it doesn't really matter whether or not you think it's a dangerous idea, it's self evidently true If you grow up in a culture that values conformity and loyalty over individual expression and independent thought, that's going to shape the stories you tell. If you grow up in a culture that values modesty over boldness, that's going to shape the things you draw. Of course culture shapes art. though that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who grows up in the same environment will produce the same things, or that everyone will be affected in the same way

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985790]yes thats the point im trying to make, their LIFE inherently influences their work, but aspects of the culture they live in which have nothing to do with their work dont influence it[/QUOTE] But cultural influences are a part of their life. A massive part that plays a big role in their beliefs, values, and other various thoughts and ideas.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985790]yes thats the point im trying to make, their LIFE inherently influences their work, but aspects of the culture they live in which have nothing to do with their work dont influence it[/QUOTE] culture inherently influences art because art styles gradually shift through time periods over decades and centuries if culture had no influence on art then there would be no styistic periods because everyone would be producing whatever comes to their head at that exact moment. there are radical thinkers and innovators yes, but those are few and far between there's a reason a japanese person didn't draw the mona lisa [editline]20th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LuaChobo;51985790]yes thats the point im trying to make, their LIFE inherently influences their work, but aspects of the culture they live in which have nothing to do with their work dont influence it[/QUOTE] Guernica

[QUOTE=Jund;51985798] Guernica[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] [B][U]Wikipedia article about that painting/reference[/U][/B] At the time, Picasso was living in Paris, where he had been named Honorary Director-in-Exile of the Prado Museum. He had last visited Spain in 1934 and never returned.[4] His initial sketches for the project, on which he worked somewhat dispassionately from January until late April, depicted his perennial theme of the artist's studio.[1] Immediately upon hearing reports of the 26 April bombing of Guernica, the poet Juan Larrea visited Picasso and urged him to make the bombing his subject.[1] However, it was only on 1 May, having read George Steer's eyewitness account of the bombing (originally published in both The Times and The New York Times on 28 April), that he abandoned his initial project and started sketching a series of preliminary drawings for Guernica[/QUOTE] Paris = Spain now I guess.