JonTron releases a statement about the controversy - General

[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51991108] "Your views are degenerate because science, and I expect you to apologize and change them"[/QUOTE] Yes. Valid opinions are based on objective truth. If your views knowingly reject objective fact then they are wrong and I expect you to change them. You're downplaying facts and science as if they aren't all that relevant.

[QUOTE=Rusty100;51991019]no. this is where you're wrong. the default stance is not mistrust and you're projecting yourself onto the rest of society. 'all humans automatically distrust things that are different' is a stupid blanket statement[/QUOTE] You missed the part where I said a person's skin colour or ethnic origin doesn't mean shit to me. You misunderstand me. I made the argument that where in someone's exposure to those of a different ethnicity, there is no familiarty, then they will default to mistrust and prejudice. Throw in existing prejudices, like "blacks commit more crime" (Which again, is statistically true, but I would argue is more a product of the following than anything else), and the bad blood between whites and blacks due to slavery and segregation, and how society has adapted (or rather, failed to), it's only natural that many communities with strong ethnic majorities still avoid mixing. If you're not even going to attempt to understand actual racists, or people who are racists by proxy and even those who aren't, but don't treat discussions about race like stepping on eggshells, and instead immediately condemn them for the fact that they are or seem so, you're not part of the solution.

[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51991108]It's a dumb blanket statement wrapped in smart sounding words. There's not even an attempt at making an argument. Not "Gee Jon, I understand that you might have problems with how some members of the black community act, but why do you think it's fair to attribute that to an entire race?" Instead we get this drivel "Your views are degenerate because science, and I expect you to apologize and change them"[/QUOTE] man i think archangel's post is pretentious af too. but you're not doing a much better job with your words here. you almost make it sound like the scientific part is what's bad, which is undoubtedly going to make this point look absolutely inane

[QUOTE=mrkaki;51991107]I didn't say Destiny made Jon say anything, I meant [b]he misunderstood Jon's words as racism[/b] just like he misunderstood Sargon's words as racism. The main difference is that Jon was too inarticulate to explain himself further. [b]Jon's contention regarding the gene pool[/b] remark might have very well been that in the scenario of slow, controlled immigration, there would be cultural as well as genetical assimilation, and that within a few generations they would definitely be regarded as Americans both culturally as well as genetically, which plays into the tribalism argument he was trying yet failing to make during the debate. I never said his claims are good, but they're not as bad as people say they are.[/QUOTE] What is racism? [editline]21st March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51991108] Instead we get this drivel "Your views are degenerate because science, and I expect you to apologize and change them"[/QUOTE] You shouldn't have to apologise to anybody but if value yourself as a rational person and your views hold no basis in reality, or are based on invalid logic, you should probably consider tweaking them.

Jon definitely said things that are incredibly fucked up and he didn't address them at all. He really just kind of hand waved over his more unreasonable opinions as "its being misconstrued by everyone" which is honestly bullshit. Jon said the things he said with conviction. He's not a great speaker but it's foolish to try and spin what he said as a heat of the moment cracking under pressure kind of thing. I do feel as if this were a big nonapology that didn't get into the meat of anything substantial regarding why he faces such massive backlash right now.

[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;51991353]I more meant that archangels post reads to me like he thinks conservatism has no right to exist because he's claiming the scientific high ground for his own views, without providing sources. I realize now because of Glent's post that they're all falling over the "Rich blacks commit more crime than poor whites" comment. Which isn't true, rich black [B]kids[/B] (or young adults) are just [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/"]as likely or more likely to go to prison[/URL] compared to poor white kids.[/QUOTE] I took it as a general point despite the word armour, and the rich black kids was just an example. If your views, [I]any of them[/I], dispute objective fact or are of invalid logic, I think it's fair to label them as wrong, incorrect, invalid, whatever word you wanna use.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51991240]What is racism? [editline]21st March 2017[/editline] You shouldn't have to apologise to anybody but if value yourself as a rational person and your views hold no basis in reality, or are based on invalid logic, you should probably consider tweaking them.[/QUOTE] So you're just using trigger words to identify statements as racism, instead of the context behind the statements? Very well then. It'd have been racism if he stated that foreigners entering the gene pool is bad, but he didn't. He said they would "enter the gene pool and, you know" - followed by Destiny cutting him off with an angry remark before letting him finish the statement, ruining that part of the debate. Yes, Jon could've tried to clarify himself there after Destiny's rude interruption, but he didn't have the debating skills, didn't have the courage... I don't even know why Jon agreed to stream the debate in the first place.

[QUOTE=mrkaki;51991673]So you're just using trigger words to identify statements as racism, instead of the context behind the statements? Very well then. It'd have been racism if he stated that foreigners entering the gene pool is bad, but he didn't. He said they would "enter the gene pool and, you know" - followed by Destiny cutting him off with an angry remark before letting him finish the statement, ruining that part of the debate. Yes, Jon could've tried to clarify himself there after Destiny's rude interruption, but he didn't have the debating skills, didn't have the courage... I don't even know why Jon agreed to stream the debate in the first place.[/QUOTE] [quote]Destiny : "Ok now you are talking about assimilation. What if whites became the minority but most brown people assimilated to the culture, would that be ok then?" Jontron : "Yeah but if they assimilated they would enter the gene pool eventually..."[/quote] The "but" strongly implies he has some misgivings about it. Under what circumstance would someone being concerned about "brown people" entering the genepool not be considered racist? "oh yeah I've no problem with the race thing! I'm only concerned about the milk industry!!! if they enter the gene pool and lactose intolerance increases it will negatively effect milk sales and possibly hurt gdp!!!" You can't argue for "it's just culture" if he says the cultural integration is ok but... [genepool] Am I incorrectly associating concern for genepool mixing with racism? Is that whats happening here? [editline]21st March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=mrkaki;51991673] It'd have been racism if he stated that foreigners entering the gene pool is bad, but he didn't.[/QUOTE] Wait a minute! you don't even know what racism is! That is the root of our disagreement! A racist might see "racial kinship" with foreigners providing they are from the same "race" or a similar ethnicity. Glad we could figure out the source of this confusion

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51991765]The "but" strongly implies he has some misgivings about it. Under what circumstance would someone being concerned about "brown people" entering the genepool not be considered racist? "oh yeah I've no problem with the race thing! I'm only concerned about the milk industry!!! if they enter the gene pool and lactose intolerance increases it will negatively effect milk sales and possibly hurt gdp!!!" You can't argue for "it's just culture" if he says the cultural integration is ok but... [genepool] Am I incorrectly associating concern for genepool mixing with racism? Is that whats happening here? [editline]21st March 2017[/editline] Wait a minute! you don't even know what racism is! That is the root of our disagreement! A racist might see "racial kinship" with foreigners providing they are from the same "race" or a similar ethnicity. Glad we could figure out the source of this confusion[/QUOTE] "Yeah, but if they assimilated they would enter the gene pool eventually, and that makes your question irrelevant / and that's not the issue I'm discussing here" 'But' in that sentence does not have to imply he has misgivings specifically about brown people entering the gene pool. And the issue he was trying to discuss at that point was people of a different culture mass immigrating into the United States, continuing to separate themselves from Americans (this is the tribalism argument he was talking about) and not assimilating to western culture. And yet again sticking to one specific word. I didn't remember if the question was regarding 'black' people or 'brown' people. It's obvious I meant to people of a different race.

[QUOTE=mrkaki;51991884]"Yeah, but if they assimilated they would enter the gene pool eventually, and that makes your question irrelevant / and that's not the issue I'm discussing here" 'But' in that sentence does not have to imply he has misgivings specifically about brown people entering the gene pool. And the issue he was trying to discuss at that point was people of a different culture mass immigrating into the United States, continuing to separate themselves from Americans (this is the tribalism argument he was talking about) and not assimilating to western culture. And yet again sticking to one specific word. I didn't remember if the question was regarding 'black' people or 'brown' people. It's obvious I meant to people of a different race.[/QUOTE] You're not even gonna look up the exchange before arguing on its meaning? Luckily for you and the rest of the thread, I used to work doing transcripts (this starts at around 1 hour in) [quote][B]Destiny[/B]: Do you think it's OK for a country to stifle its growth a little bit in order to maintain a, uh, homogeneous cultural identity? [B]Jon[/B]: Uh, yeah I think it's fine. Japan does it. They just did a uh- [B]Destiny[/B]: OK, why did you come to the United States instead of going to Japan then? [B]Jon[/B]: I didn't come here dude, I was born here [B]Destiny[/B]: Oh... Why did your parents come here instead of going to Jap- I don't know- I don't care about Japan, I'm talking about the United States. [B]Jontron[/B]: Yeah, I'm just using another country as an analogy. I'm just- [B]Destiny[/B]: But that's a country with a whole different set of values or beliefs than us- [B]Jon[/B]: Sooo there ARE different countries with different values and different beliefs and is... So there ARE those!? They exist!? [B]Destiny[/B]: Yeah... [B]Jon[/B]: OK, so when you mix one country with a certain value system, into another one with a certain value system it won't change things? [B]Destiny[/B]: We're not mixing countries... There are PEOPLE coming- [B]Jon[/B]: They come from somewhere! [B]Destiny[/B]: Yeah, and then they become Americans, so their children are Americans... [B]Jon[/B]: But the... the uh... the stats don't back you up on that. [B]Destiny[/B]: Wait, what stats don't - Fucking Trump's mom was fucking Irish! Like, what do you mean the stats don't back me up!? [B]Jon[/B]: Irish! European bro! I don't know what you keep going on about - Look, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying we can see that there exists some divides... Uhm... When you do this kind of immigration wrong, and you need to have the people assimilate, so it needs to be slow. It needs to be slow. [B]--------Twitch clip part--------[/B] [B]Destiny[/B]: OK so now you're talking assimilation. What if whites became the minority, but most brown people assimilated to the culture, would that be OK? [B]Jon[/B]: Yeah, but if they assimilated, they'd enter the gene pool eventually and just... y'know... [B]Destiny[/B]: Become white!? [B]Jon[/B]: No, not become white, but- [B]Destiny[/B]: What do you mean then? [B]--------Ends about here I think?--------[/B] [B]Jon[/B]: But that's how it worked, that's how- [B]Destiny[/B]: So you're saying brown people would come over, and eventually marry themselves off to white people [B]Jon[/B]: Noo, nooo that's not what I'm saying... That's not what I'm saying... I- Uh- People would be free to choose. But what I'm saying is, if you do it slow enough, the country doesn't have a- [B]Destiny[/B]: A color shift!? Like, this is what I'm trying to ask! Let's say you had a 100 million brown people that wanted to come to the United States, and they would all assimilate to the culture immediately. But whites would then become the minority. Would this be a good thing or a bad thing? [B]Jon[/B]: If they... If they assimilated immediately, like- [B]Destiny[/B]: Yeah- [B]Jon[/B]: Of course. Not a bad thing. Would be fine. [B]Destiny[/B]: Ok, so even if whites became the minority then, it wouldn't be a bad thing if people integrated. We can agree on that? [B]Jon[/B]: Yeah sure- [b]Destiny[/b]: Then shouldn't the focus be on getting integration to work better, rather than just restrict all immigration, and hurting the potential economic growth of the country? [b]Jon[/b]: But that's like saying.... Why- Why would you... What's- What- Why do you need... See, you have some moral... ulterior motive here [b]Destiny[/b]: My moral ulterior motive is to maximize the economic growth of the country, and to maximize the slice of the pie for every person in the United States. That's my ulterior motive. I want the country to be as successful as it can be and grow as fast as possible. [b]Jon[/b]: Hold on hold on. When I state this argument, it makes me sound like I... I- I Have a problem with people who aren't white. That's not true. And I- They don't need to meld in, I'm just talking about the ideal way to do immigration. That's all I'm talking about. I understand we have people here who are white, or black, and I want them all to feel respected and loved, and of course, like... That's- It's ridiculous... to think I don't want that. I'm just talking about the demographic shift. Whites are expected to just lay down and take it. But- [b]Destiny[/b]: OK, But you keep making this about race. I thought what you said really matters is assimilation. Why do we keep going back to whites? [b]Jon[/b]: Because I do... I do think race influences culture, I do, I think it does. [/quote] Why on earth the last line isn't what people are latching onto is beyond me Jontron literally admitted to being a racist

Jon is a racist who thinks certain races are predisposed to certain behaviors. And that's what he should be called out for. However he didn't say shit about non-white people entering "genepool" being a bad thing. As fucked up as even bringing this up is, he didn't say it's a bad thing. For fuck's sake, he said people would be "free to chose" if they wanted to marry someone from a different race. He doesn't see a problem with it. Why do people have to make shit up to make him look even worse? As if the things he [U]actually[/U] said aren't bad enough.

My apologies, I listened to everything that led up to the two statements that people keep latching on to, and didn't understand how that's enough for people to assume the underlying opinion behind those statements. I was mistaken. Hope he'll find some people to discuss peacefully with, like Boogie or Sargon ( I really don't care if they would go public or not). He talked to them before, and Boogie shows intent to resolve this issue. Doesn't seem like he's gone overboard yet, and he's definitely not malicious.

Please be retarded and not just bigoted, please be retarded and not just bigoted, please...

I don't really care about any of it and I'm not triggered at all.

[QUOTE=Maddog's Here;51994809]I don't really care about any of it and I'm not triggered at all.[/QUOTE] good for you I guess

[QUOTE=Maddog's Here;51994809]I don't really care about any of it and I'm not triggered at all.[/QUOTE] whew, thank god for that, I don't know how I would have gone about my day without Maddog's opinion on this subject.

Well this gave me one more reason to unsub.

[QUOTE=ThatSprite;51995269]whew, thank god for that, I don't know how I would have gone about my day without Maddog's opinion on this subject.[/QUOTE] No worries pal

He seems pretty ignorant in the transcript, but I don't know about racist. I feel like he's mixing up region and race. People of a certain region (Large or small) are going to act in a different way and he doesn't want his everyday life to change at all. Basically just fear of change. I think if Jon was to travel and see the world his opinions on these topics would drastically change. Just sit down and talk with people all over the world.

[QUOTE=Pascall;51982644]This is, ultimately a non-apology to me tbh. I'm glad he addressed what happened but it still seems insincere. Or like it's one of those situations where they're not really sorry, they're just sorry that they got caught. I don't care if people watch his videos tbh, but I'm still not interested in either him or his content anymore.[/QUOTE] Since when were you owed an apology?

[QUOTE=Cabbage;51997880]Since when were you owed an apology?[/QUOTE] I believe you're missing the point. JonTron hasn't gone into Pascal's house and punched her in the gut, he just said fucked up things which have affected how people perceive his character. He said hurtful things and have committed themselves to a hurtful ideology. The point is to apologize [i]to the public[/i] for having said those things instead of claiming that he's being misconstrued. And, to be fair - nobody is [I]ever[/I] owed an apology, ever. It's just a good mannerism that protects the integrity of relationships by shedding pride and confirming that one cares about the affected party. JonTron needs to do just that - show that he does care about these people and don't want to make the case that they are liars and responsible for their own consequences.

[QUOTE=Cabbage;51997880]Since when were you owed an apology?[/QUOTE] Since he made racist comments toward her race

It wasn't even me saying that he was apologizing to [I]me[/I] in particular because I'm not even black? I'm Hispanic. Still a minority but not really the one bearing the brunt of what Jon said. But what I said meant that his general apology to WHOEVER seemed very insincere. I never said he owed me an apology lmao what kinda stupid shit.

[QUOTE=Pascall;51998461]It wasn't even me saying that he was apologizing to [I]me[/I] in particular because I'm not even black? I'm Hispanic. Still a minority but not really the one bearing the brunt of what Jon said. But what I said meant that his general apology to WHOEVER seemed very insincere. I never said he owed me an apology lmao what kinda stupid shit.[/QUOTE] I recalled he made some unsavory comments about Mexicans in the video but I don't want to sit through it again so I'll need someone to confirm or deny that either way I reckon he owes everyone an apology

[QUOTE=wauterboi;51998236]I believe you're missing the point. JonTron hasn't gone into Pascal's house and punched her in the gut, he just said fucked up things which have affected how people perceive his character. He said hurtful things and have committed themselves to a hurtful ideology. The point is to apologize [i]to the public[/i] for having said those things instead of claiming that he's being misconstrued. And, to be fair - nobody is [I]ever[/I] owed an apology, ever. It's just a good mannerism that protects the integrity of relationships by shedding pride and confirming that one cares about the affected party. JonTron needs to do just that - show that he does care about these people and don't want to make the case that they are liars and responsible for their own consequences.[/QUOTE] I know apologising to 'the public' is what Pascall meant, I'm saying why? When did he personally wrong anyone? I don't ask someone to apologise when they say something dumb publicly. Go and ask all actual neo-nazis to 'apologise'.

[QUOTE=Cabbage;52011203]I know apologising to 'the public' is what Pascall meant, I'm saying why? When did he personally wrong anyone? I don't ask someone to apologise when they say something dumb publicly. Go and ask all actual neo-nazis to 'apologise'.[/QUOTE] If a public figure who relies on his audience for a living is gonna insult a portion of the audience that gives him that living, I think he probably owes them an apology if he's at all interested in keeping them.

who the hell cares honestly the man makes goofy videos of robot birds and videogames, why do you even care about his political views? why is it even an issue?! he made the mistake of broadcasting it publically, so every nut out there feels the strong need to dissect and loudly broadcast (notice how i dont use 'argue' or 'debate') their opinions like gospel, which is why this is such a massive deal apparently its honestly such a massive joke people treat this so seriously like holy shit, i cant fathom it

[QUOTE=tupacman;52013140]who the hell cares honestly the man makes goofy videos of robot birds and videogames, why do you even care about his political views? why is it even an issue?! he made the mistake of broadcasting it publically, so every nut out there feels the strong need to dissect and loudly broadcast (notice how i dont use 'argue' or 'debate') their opinions like gospel, which is why this is such a massive deal apparently its honestly such a massive joke people treat this so seriously like holy shit, i cant fathom it[/QUOTE] I get it, you dont care, but I do. I've tried to look past all the bullshit he got into in the past but it comes to a point where separating the man from the artist isn't possible due to personal principles. The stuff he said was so appalling to me that I really don't want to bother with defending him anymore. Sorry to say not everyone can be like you in regards to ignoring the shit he said. As you said, he made the mistake of talking about it in the public. It's hia fault that it comes back to bite him in the ass.

but what exactly did he say from what i see its nonsense like rich black kids are more likely to go to jail or whatever the hell but its kind of strange to be arguing against his points that he clearly has not fully thought out and even admitted that its the case, and really his opinions are just opinions. no one out there can see perfectly eye to eye on such dicey subjects like this, and to argue and drag it out THIS long is nothing but pointless. at the end of the month is anything better after shooting this shit back and forth? no, nothing's changed really the most AWFUL HORRENDOUS stuff he said thats COMPLETELY INEXCUSABLE just seems half thought-out and really isn't that terrible, just bigoted. i feel like this is less about jons views and more about politics, and whenever politics gets involved shit always hits the fan, diarrhea massive vomit black tar shit, that is. plus isn't completely disregarding someones work solely because of their political views bigoted on its own? i mean i dont want to trash on your decision... it just seems a bit of an over reaction

[QUOTE=tupacman;52013177]really the most AWFUL HORRENDOUS stuff he said thats COMPLETELY INEXCUSABLE just seems half thought-out and really isn't that terrible, just bigoted.[/QUOTE] yes that's the entire fucking point