Making the Source Engine Beautiful again [3kliksphilip]
84 replies, posted
Have to say, Source is an old engine but it's still got it. Maps like the new Dust II, and TF2's Asteroid and Banana Bay look gorgeous to this day.
Trying to make Source look modern is like trying to make GoldSRC look modern in 2010
So a few months back Solokiller was working on a modification of the Xash3D Goldsrc clone code, making it a lot closer to the Source 2003 (leak) code. Pretty sure I remember rebuilt lighting, physics and cubemaps in there.
If we actually managed to get Valve to opensource the Goldsrc engine, people could go [I]nuts[/I] with it.
[QUOTE=chipsnapper2;53055021]So a few months back Solokiller was working on a modification of the Xash3D Goldsrc clone code, making it a lot closer to the Source 2003 (leak) code. Pretty sure I remember rebuilt lighting, physics and cubemaps in there.
If we actually managed to get Valve to opensource the Goldsrc engine, people could go [I]nuts[/I] with it.[/QUOTE]
I remember having to use Xash3d when the whole steam pipe thing temporarily fucked up all of the mods, that was interesting.
[QUOTE=J!NX;53054725]Source was the juggernaut jack of all trades of its time. Large maps, performs well, deals with many NPC's, amazing physics, great graphics, everything.
now every engine is the master of all trades with the right tinkering. Every engine can do those things 'the best', there's no limit, its just based on what you prefer.
Source as it stands is dead in the water in modern standards. All engines are a jack of trades and even a master of them, Source can no longer dominate that slot, even if they did make it as good as the current engines.
[editline]15th January 2018[/editline]
The only thing I can see them 'mastering' would perhaps going for being the best engine for physics and expanding facial animation tech really.[/QUOTE]
Source is pretty good for performance aswell, or at least it sounds like it is.
[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;53055298]Source is pretty good for performance aswell, or at least it sounds like it is.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it performs well unless your game has over 1200 cosmetics and has been developed by a rolling team for a decade.
Source doesn't have a lot of shortcuts and auto-optimizations that modern engines have.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53055369]Source doesn't have a lot of shortcuts and auto-optimizations that modern engines have.[/QUOTE]
I'm interested to know what those are. I'm guessing you mean workflow optimizations rather than runtime speed optimizations.
[QUOTE=EE 20 D0;53055458]I'm interested to know what those are. I'm guessing you mean workflow optimizations rather than runtime speed optimizations.[/QUOTE]
Auto-optimization: garbage collection, texture streaming, async loading of assets and a lot of other features.
You can make Source visually nice, but modern engines will run the same scenes way faster.
This just makes me wonder; what the hell happened to Source 2?
[QUOTE=lew06;53055497]This just makes me wonder; what the hell happened to Source 2?[/QUOTE]
Valve happened to Source 2.
[QUOTE=lew06;53055497]This just makes me wonder; what the hell happened to Source 2?[/QUOTE]
Dota runs on Source 2 supposedly, but as far as I know the only thing that porting over really brought to the table was a better UI system and better particle system.
Edit: Apparently it brought some other stuff to the table too: [url]http://www.dota2.com/reborn/part3[/url]
[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;53055500]Valve happened to Source 2.[/QUOTE]Really sucks because Hammer 2 is really cool and I just want to see it "finished." If only it was someone other than Valve working on it.
[QUOTE=EE 20 D0;53055458]I'm interested to know what those are. I'm guessing you mean workflow optimizations rather than runtime speed optimizations.[/QUOTE]
On top of what Nicolas said, there's no automatic occlusion or culling, it still doesn't support AA that isn't the multisampling kind (temporal AA techniques are fast and look great these days), and it overall does not respect load times. Static lighting is baked and since there's no texture streaming, when you load a level you're loading the ENTIRE level.
[QUOTE=simzboy;53055551]Really sucks because Hammer 2 is really cool and I just want to see it "finished." If only it was someone other than Valve working on it.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see popular yet archaic valve titles at least get some sort of port to S2. Being limited to a single threaded loading and dx9 limited engine that's bloated beyond belief like tf2 gets irritating.
[QUOTE=dustyjo;53054942]Source can do real-time reflections just fine, but nobody ever uses it in their maps and I don't know why.
[t]https://i.imgur.com/YBrJ7vj.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
good luck making it work with pbr
[QUOTE=lew06;53055497]This just makes me wonder; what the hell happened to Source 2?[/QUOTE]
Last page. Powers Dota 2 (not that it really utilizes it) and SteamVR Home/Destinations which is where it better shines.
[QUOTE=EE 20 D0;53055458]I'm interested to know what those are. I'm guessing you mean workflow optimizations rather than runtime speed optimizations.[/QUOTE]
I'd say chief among them is [B]visleaf optimization[/B]
Half of learning to properly map on Source is learning how to make actual level geometry as streamlined as possible so it doesn't spaz the fuck out
And even then, it still spazzes out
[QUOTE=Loadingue;53054828]I know Valve textures well, and you can see how much Valve dropped the ball in L4D2 and CSGO. They used to make smart use of cubemaps and phong to get realistic-looking objects and walls, but now everything is flat because apparently only glass can have reflections, right?
INFRA is proof that you can still make Source look fantastic if you use textures right.[/QUOTE]
The main reason cubemap textures end up looking bad is that there's no cubemap blur. Which usually results in a lot of surfaces looking like water.
Portal 2 ended up with dedicated cubemap textures for surfaces and reduced use of map based cubemaps.
[QUOTE=dustyjo;53054942]Source can do real-time reflections just fine, but nobody ever uses it in their maps and I don't know why.
[t]https://i.imgur.com/YBrJ7vj.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
Expensive and looks watery
I recompiled office with it, but since I can't blur the reflection it ends up looking like a wet floor
[t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/692780106198662269/1B77C2B756248F3C53E8B8E1D2B26E272E866A22/[/t]
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53055584]On top of what Nicolas said, there's no automatic occlusion or culling, it still doesn't support AA that isn't the multisampling kind (temporal AA techniques are fast and look great these days), and it overall does not respect load times. Static lighting is baked and since there's no texture streaming, when you load a level you're loading the ENTIRE level.[/QUOTE]
Team Fortress 2 added in texture streaming, not publicly available afaik. Also temporal AA techniques are really bad. MSAA is nice and clean and most importantly, not blurry.
But yeah, all the culling is done in the map.
Source sucks to do things in. It takes a lot of work, effort, and skill to make things look half-way nice. Mostly because nothing is done for you, and everything has to be done manually. Which is exactly why I love it so much. You can see very clearly the hand of a good artist working in Source.
That being said, fuck, do I miss the days were Source was at all relevant. No updates, no communication, bug fixes, no new games or content or engine, but most of all, no support.
I feel so incredibly neglected by a company I once idolized.
[QUOTE=Phone-Booth;53055726]Source sucks to do things in. It takes a lot of work, effort, and skill to make things look half-way nice. Mostly because nothing is done for you, and everything has to be done manually. Which is exactly why I love it so much. You can see very clearly the hand of a good artist working in Source.
That being said, fuck, do I miss the days were Source was at all relevant. No updates, no communication, bug fixes, no new games or content or engine, but most of all, no support.
I feel so incredibly neglected by a company I once idolized.[/QUOTE]
Source is really hit or miss for me. It has some really really outstanding things then some really really badly aged things.
The model pipeline is hit or miss. Qcs are absolutely wonderful for rapidly iterating characters and complicated objects, but absolutely abysmal for doing really basic things in large quantities.
The facial animation still holds up amazingly to this day, but the process of setting it up is a bit difficult.
Mapping is really easy to prototype levels in which lowers the bar immensely for newer mappers, but it's incredibly difficult/time consuming to optimize and detail.
The graphics have aged pretty badly, and everything is expensive on modern GPUs.
[QUOTE=dustyjo;53054942]Source can do real-time reflections just fine, but nobody ever uses it in their maps and I don't know why.
[t]https://i.imgur.com/YBrJ7vj.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
Is that a Source recreation of Perfect Dark? That could be awesome to play.
edit: looked it up after the late rating and it's been around since 2007, cool. Should get around to playing it sometime.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53055821]Is that a Source recreation of Perfect Dark? That could be awesome to play.
edit: looked it up after the late rating and it's been around since 2007, cool. Should get around to playing it sometime.[/QUOTE]
No, that's a custom map I was making for jaykin bacon and maybe CSGO a few years back. I couldn't find the time to finish it though so it's just sat around for years unfinished. :frown:
That room is all that was really finished.
[QUOTE=dustyjo;53055974]No, that's a custom map I was making for jaykin bacon and maybe CSGO a few years back. I couldn't find the time to finish it though so it's just sat around for years unfinished. :frown:[/QUOTE]
Oh, I just googled perfect dark source and this was the first result [URL="http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfect-darksource"]http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfect-darksource[/URL]
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;53055636]The main reason cubemap textures end up looking bad is that there's no cubemap blur. Which usually results in a lot of surfaces looking like water.
Portal 2 ended up with dedicated cubemap textures for surfaces and reduced use of map based cubemaps.
Expensive and looks watery
I recompiled office with it, but since I can't blur the reflection it ends up looking like a wet floor
[t]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/692780106198662269/1B77C2B756248F3C53E8B8E1D2B26E272E866A22/[/t]
Team Fortress 2 added in texture streaming, not publicly available afaik. Also temporal AA techniques are really bad. MSAA is nice and clean and most importantly, not blurry.
But yeah, all the culling is done in the map.[/QUOTE]I'm thinking of whatever the really nice AA in Doom 2016 was. If that wasn't TAA then I must be wrong. But I do like the TAA in Siege.
I actually like a blurry AA because I can't wear my glasses and have headphones on simultaneously or they dig into my face. So I play games with my glasses off and everything is a tiny bit blurry anyway. And a blurry AA seems to reduce screen door effect on my 1080p display, somehow.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53056005]I'm thinking of whatever the really nice AA in Doom 2016 was. If that wasn't TAA then I must be wrong. But I do like the TAA in Siege.[/QUOTE]
there is various AA settings in Doom, about 6 of them.
[url]https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/265486/what-do-the-different-doom-4-antialiasing-settings-do-and-how-do-they-impact-per[/url]
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53054952]An fp user, testinglol I believe, posted some Source 2 clips a while ago, there was a neat one showing Source 2's dynamic glass breaking.[/QUOTE]
[VID]https://cdn-e1.streamable.com/video/mp4/ia72.mp4?token=1477173640_71beb7606ea791c99ac3964bd723984830899cec[/VID]
Is this the clip?
Found another one:
[VID]https://cdn-e1.streamable.com/video/mp4/nmac.mp4?token=1477177965_31b612d97f07f61e112ae26ff11767873232f3b6[/VID]
Clips are broken for me.
I think we can all just forget Source2 now that S&box is on its way.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;53056511]I think we can all just forget Source2 now that S&box is on its way.[/QUOTE]
I personally agree, all the features Valve or others described with Source 2 I always associated with "I'd like to play with that in gmod", and since there most likely won't be a sandbox mod for S2, I stopped caring. [sp]not like there will be anything that's not shit (i.e. single player campaign games), right valve?[/sp]
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