Sometimes the bad guys in video games had a point. - General

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;50777855]I mean, Olga was basically the S3's version of Ocelot and Gray Fox mixed together, what with the spying for the Patriots. Solidus had a plan and he followed it. He was a bad person with an ultimately good cause. I mean he kind of did get the last laugh 2 games later but all it took was Ocelot melting his dead body and getting beat up by an old man with a fat ass.[/QUOTE] Not quite. Nobody will remember him probably. Heck, I wonder if anyone knows that it was him who had a huge boating accident with a chunk of a whole city. I mean, he was an actual president and all... Still, probably not, with the all reaching grasp of the Patriots...

Surprised no one has mentioned Borderlands. If anyone played the Pre-Sequel, Jack's insanity becomes very clear.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50779341]Forget Big Boss. The Boss herself epitomizes this idea. [sp]She wasn't even really a villain; she willingly sacrificed her reputation and her life in order to prevent nuclear war. It was set up from the get-go that she had to die at Big Boss' hands, and she was aware of this.[/sp] ([sp]Even though even that what isn't really what happened, but that was the reason she was led to believe in any case.[/sp])[/QUOTE] Didn't she defect because the US put its interests in priority instead of the well being of its people? Like how they ditched her for failing her mission during the first entry into space? And that gave her the idea of defecting.

I agree, the best villains are the kinds of ones that make you stop and think. The antagonist in Spec Ops: The Line is a great example of this. I also liked Pokemon Black and White for the same reason. Team Plasma made you stop and think if it was ethical to essentially "enslave" Pokemon and force them to do battle for your own ends, despite the documented evidence that it is the bond between Pokemon and Trainer that helps determine each other's power and capabilities. N is easily my favorite character in the entire fucking franchise just because of how much he made me reflect upon myself and ask if I was doing the right thing. Of course [sp]this is entirely ruined when the plasma leader reveals he was just trying to liberate other trainers pokemon so he could simply take over the world with his own, but at least N legitimately believed in the fake message and tried to adhere to it as best he could.[/sp] We need more interesting bad guys in gaming. Or hell, any story for that matter.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50779917]Didn't she defect because the US put its interests in priority instead of the well being of its people? Like how they ditched her for failing her mission during the first entry into space? And that gave her the idea of defecting.[/QUOTE] No. She was basically under orders and did what she did because it was her duty.

[QUOTE=The Pretender;50779889]Surprised no one has mentioned Borderlands. If anyone played the Pre-Sequel, Jack's insanity becomes very clear.[/QUOTE] The Pre-Sequel was written like complete shit

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50779917]Didn't she defect because the US put its interests in priority instead of the well being of its people? Like how they ditched her for failing her mission during the first entry into space? And that gave her the idea of defecting.[/QUOTE] She never defected, The Boss, was always a loyal US asset and was prepaired to ultimately die for the cause. Even to Snake / Big Boss she was an Ally doing what she could to aid him but she had to maintain the act of being a traitor. Why she fights Snake at the end is to clear the US of any wrong doing, and thus solidify her as a traitor in the eyes of the rest of the world. She could not run away / hide because that'd put doubt on her switching sides and naturally going home would have been out of the question, she 'could' have commited suicide but that might have thrown her true allegience into doubt but morso i think that she wanted to die to the person she cared about most / prove to Snake that he had surpassed her and was good enough to continue her legacy. She had to die, and it had to be Snake to do it.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50780358]She never defected, The Boss, was always a loyal US asset and was prepaired to ultimately die for the cause. Even to Snake / Big Boss she was an Ally doing what she could to aid him but she had to maintain the act of being a traitor. Why she fights Snake at the end is to clear the US of any wrong doing, and thus solidify her as a traitor in the eyes of the rest of the world. She could not run away / hide because that'd put doubt on her switching sides and naturally going home would have been out of the question, she 'could' have commited suicide but that might have thrown her true allegience into doubt but morso i think that she wanted to die to the person she cared about most / prove to Snake that he had surpassed her and was good enough to continue her legacy. She had to die, and it had to be Snake to do it.[/QUOTE] Fucking MGS3 is a masterpiece.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50779917]Didn't she defect because the US put its interests in priority instead of the well being of its people? Like how they ditched her for failing her mission during the first entry into space? And that gave her the idea of defecting.[/QUOTE] you [sp]were taken on the patented kojima ruse cruise[/sp]

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50780358]She never defected, The Boss, was always a loyal US asset and was prepaired to ultimately die for the cause. Even to Snake / Big Boss she was an Ally doing what she could to aid him but she had to maintain the act of being a traitor. Why she fights Snake at the end is to clear the US of any wrong doing, and thus solidify her as a traitor in the eyes of the rest of the world. She could not run away / hide because that'd put doubt on her switching sides and naturally going home would have been out of the question, she 'could' have commited suicide but that might have thrown her true allegience into doubt but morso i think that she wanted to die to the person she cared about most / prove to Snake that he had surpassed her and was good enough to continue her legacy. She had to die, and it had to be Snake to do it.[/QUOTE] One question still bugs me: [sp]Does The Boss throw the fight at the end, or is Snake simply better than her by that point?[/sp] [editline]26th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Feuver;50780483]Fucking MGS3 is a masterpiece.[/QUOTE] Yeah, what a thrill!

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50779341]Forget Big Boss. The Boss herself epitomizes this idea. [sp]She wasn't even really a villain; she willingly sacrificed her reputation and her life in order to prevent nuclear war. It was set up from the get-go that she had to die at Big Boss' hands, and she was aware of this.[/sp] ([sp]Even though even that what isn't really what happened, but that was the reason she was led to believe in any case.[/sp])[/QUOTE] Does that even count as Villain though?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50780953]One question still bugs me: [sp]Does The Boss throw the fight at the end, or is Snake simply better than her by that point?[/sp] [editline]26th July 2016[/editline] Yeah, what a thrill![/QUOTE] It's kind of open to interpretation if she did or not. You have to take into account everything that was on the line if she'd have won, it'd have gone against everything we knew of her charecter as it would have put the US in danger. But at the same time, the boss not fighting to the best of her capabilites would have rendered Snakes victory illegitamte because he did really not beat the best., in which case he would not have been ready to take up the mantle. Up to you what you think.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;50781117]Does that even count as Villain though?[/QUOTE] She's the final boss and you're [sp]led to believe she has no ulterior motives till the end[/sp]

[QUOTE=Feuver;50780483]Fucking MGS3 is a masterpiece.[/QUOTE] I personally think MGS2 is much smarter and politically/socially relevant game. Plus it doesn't have that stupid camo index but that's a topic for a different discussion. Honestly, MGS3 kind of feels like a step down in terms of social commentary and plot, but that's kind of excusable since MGS2 set the bar so high and was so divisive. I just think The Boss kind of pales in comparison to Solidus. She seemed more willing to be used like a tool by the US, but at least they acknowledge that in Peace Walker and use it to build Big Boss's character. I feel like her legacy and overbearing presence in the next few games is more interesting than the character herself. [editline]26th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50780953]One question still bugs me: [sp]Does The Boss throw the fight at the end, or is Snake simply better than her by that point?[/sp][/QUOTE] Kind of both. She's not really fighting for her life, but she was still fighting with pretty much everything she had. She was pretty much testing Snake and making sure he was ready to live up to her title and legacy.

I'd argue that both Saren and the Illusive Man from ME were both pretty good villains that had a good point. Better than at least half of the other people listed in that video. [editline]27th July 2016[/editline] Throw Loghain from DA in there too, as much as you hated the guy it's hard to blame him for doing what he thought was best for his men.

I cant believe they missed the #1 example of a villian who did nothing wrong at all his entire life [img]https://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/223461-JackBL2-Header.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50780757]you [sp]were taken on the patented kojima ruse cruise[/sp][/QUOTE] Well, yeah, I don't remember it very well. Played through it a good few years ago. But isn't it true that BB carries on her ideals, of which that soldiers shouldn't be shackled to the interests of one government, which essentialy could shit on its own over "best interests", which is sort of what did happen to her a good few times with the CIA and the Philosophers?

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50781615]Well, yeah, I don't remember it very well. Played through it a good few years ago. But isn't it true that BB carries on her ideals, of which that soldiers shouldn't be shackled to the interests of one government, which essentialy could shit on its own over "best interests", which is sort of what did happen to her a good few times with the CIA and the Philosophers?[/QUOTE] No that's not what she wanted, she was nothing but a loyal soldier and wanted Snake to take over from her as Americas hero. and ultimately keep the world in peace. Her death only happens because Volgin launches a US nuke on Russian Soil, a nuke that she bought with her to gain his trust, it was never suppose to be used. She had to be the fall guy after that event in order to stop WW3 and she knew it, the initial plan was never suppose to lead to her death but circumstances changed. Snake / Jack/ Big Boss however struggles to cope with his emotions after the mission, he was used to kill the one person he cared for the most and she was to go down in histry as a traitor. Only he and a couple of others would know what she really did, but when they pass away? Her accomplishments are dirt. And well that never sat right with BB, she was a hero, a bigger hero than Snake and yet she will not be remembered as one, that never sat right with snake. Thats what set him down the path of Outter Heaven. In many ways, he corrupted The Boss's ideals.

Depending on how you play, I'd say the rebels from FTL would qualify. I mean they do actually help planets under their control and they seem to have some major support from everyone to have gotten as far as they have. And really, how often do you spare an enemy combatant if they surrender when you play? The Ur-Quan from Star Control 2 have a point too if a bit misguided. I mean during the course of the game you ally with a horrific extradimensional being that genocided the Androsynth.(Whom humanity had been trying to enslave) And given the subtext of that alliance they'll be *playing games* with humanity soon. And our curiousity will likely end with the same fate as the androsynth. Not to mention that if the Ur-Quan fail to stop the Kohr-Ah they actually come to tell you to flee because the Kohr-Ah will kill all of humanity. They really do care about life, they're just so terrified of other races they don't feel they have any other course of action.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50781615]Well, yeah, I don't remember it very well. Played through it a good few years ago. But isn't it true that BB carries on her ideals, of which that soldiers shouldn't be shackled to the interests of one government, which essentialy could shit on its own over "best interests", which is sort of what did happen to her a good few times with the CIA and the Philosophers?[/QUOTE] The Boss told Big Boss that attachments to one's comrades can lead them astray, and she died in hopes that her sacrifice and the Philosopher's Legacy would keep America safe. She knew that all soldiers were pawns of those in charge, but I doubt she wanted anything like Outer Heaven or what Big Boss or Zero (especially the latter) would've tried to do in her name, because they both did exactly what she tried to avoid when she sealed up her emotions and killed The Sorrow - letting their mourning and attachment for The Boss take over as they tried to change the world in extreme, emotional misinterpretations of her last words. Big Boss tried to create a nation of soldiers, and once his morality died out, he even created conflict for more soldiers and to make sure his men never lost their use. Zero fell down the path of trying to regulate the world into a war economy so that conflict would also never cease, but manipulating everyone and dehumanizing society and freedom and even conflict itself in the process [sp]though the Patriots and Skull Face's betrayal made him realize as his mind decayed that he'd gone too far and that it was all out of control.[/sp] Big Boss realized this, eventually, albeit [sp]shortly before his death.[/sp]

[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;50773337] It's also weird how there weren't any citizens loyal to neutral to the Combine, like 20 years of occupation wouldn't give anyone Stockholm syndrome :v:. [/QUOTE] Well, the thing there is that at the beginning of the game the citizens you meet are mostly just neutral, the middle of the game they're all rebels because you're on the route out of City 17 and into Nova Prospekt, and at the end all of the loyalist citizens had been pressed into service by the Combine, usually as metropolice. [editline]26th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50774100] More interested about the G-Man. But I believe not even Valve knew what to do with him, when they put him in this unknown neutral manipulative character with possibly bad motives.[/QUOTE] I'm surprised that people haven't figured out yet that the G-man is just a freelancer hired by groups to do specific jobs seemingly related to sabotage and espionage. For example, in Half Life he was hired by the Combine Empire to help them track down and finished off Nihilanth and his own slave empire, done so by influencing the events around the Black Mesa Incident, and in Half Life 2 he's been hired by some unknown source to disrupt the Combine Empires resource gathering, done so by letting Gordon loose to fuck shit up.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50781728]Well, the thing there is that at the beginning of the game the citizens you meet are mostly just neutral, the middle of the game they're all rebels because you're on the route out of City 17 and into Nova Prospekt, and at the end all of the loyalist citizens had been pressed into service by the Combine, usually as metropolice.[/QUOTE] I didn't think of that, but even if it makes sense, it's just speculation. I just wish they could've gone into more detail about that stuff and City 17 before they blew it up, but I guess that'd undermine the Star Wars-y good rebels vs evil empire theme.

They also missed Warcrafts major villian, Sargeras.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50781728] I'm surprised that people haven't figured out yet that the G-man is just a freelancer hired by groups to do specific jobs seemingly related to sabotage and espionage. For example, in Half Life he was hired by the Combine Empire to help them track down and finished off Nihilanth and his own slave empire, done so by influencing the events around the Black Mesa Incident, and in Half Life 2 he's been hired by some unknown source to disrupt the Combine Empires resource gathering, done so by letting Gordon loose to fuck shit up.[/QUOTE] To what degree would that theory extend and what sort of implication does it have about Gman? Did he predict Gordon's superhero capacity and his ability to destroy Ninhilanth from the very beginning? Or was Gordon just the right man in the wrong place the entire time? How far ahead was he capable of staging events? What would Gman have done otherwise? Maybe it could be proposed that we never really played through the storyline as regular Gordon? Maybe he was swapped for a very different creature entirely during the resonance cascade with the ability to perform superhuman feats of combat? Maybe Gordon got switched for something completely different even earlier? Maybe Gman is powerful enough to bend reality to a severe enough degree to create a previously nonexistent individual and convince everyone at the facility that he was always around?

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50781728]Well, the thing there is that at the beginning of the game the citizens you meet are mostly just neutral, the middle of the game they're all rebels because you're on the route out of City 17 and into Nova Prospekt, and at the end all of the loyalist citizens had been pressed into service by the Combine, usually as metropolice. [editline]26th July 2016[/editline] I'm surprised that people haven't figured out yet that the G-man is just a freelancer hired by groups to do specific jobs seemingly related to sabotage and espionage. For example, in Half Life he was hired by the Combine Empire to help them track down and finished off Nihilanth and his own slave empire, done so by influencing the events around the Black Mesa Incident, and in Half Life 2 he's been hired by some unknown source to disrupt the Combine Empires resource gathering, done so by letting Gordon loose to fuck shit up.[/QUOTE] Why is the G-man so obsessed with trying to kill Alyx though?

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;50783909]Why is the G-man so obsessed with trying to kill Alyx though?[/QUOTE] He isn't? I mean, he even stated that he went against orders to leave her to die in Black Mesa and specifically plucked her to safety in a way that didn't seem suspicious to Eli or anyone else. He wasn't responsible for the Hunter impaling her, only using the moment the Vortigaunts were healing her to speak to Freeman directly. If anything, she's like a handy little back-up pawn for whatever he was plotting.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;50783909]Why is the G-man so obsessed with trying to kill Alyx though?[/QUOTE] G-Man goes out of his way on multiple occasions to save Alyx's life. In Episode 2 he actually has vested interest in saving her life in order to deliver a message.

[QUOTE=RikohZX;50784612]He isn't? I mean, he even stated that he went against orders to leave her to die in Black Mesa and specifically plucked her to safety in a way that didn't seem suspicious to Eli or anyone else. He wasn't responsible for the Hunter impaling her, only using the moment the Vortigaunts were healing her to speak to Freeman directly. If anything, she's like a handy little back-up pawn for whatever he was plotting.[/QUOTE] It seems like there were plenty of moments where Gman planned for her to die. The end of Half Life 2 and beginning of Episode 1 where Alyx is rescued by Vortigaunts, and Gman responds with "We'll see about that." And then the end of Episode 2 where [sp]Eli dies, but he dies in place of Alyx Vance, who was the person the Advisers were attacking in the first place[/sp] When has Gman saved Alyx? He uses her to send a message in Episode 2 but that could have been opportunism. If [sp]Eli was the person meant to die in the Adviser attack at the end of episode 2, what purpose would sending the message to him serve?[/sp]

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50781124]It's kind of open to interpretation if she did or not. You have to take into account everything that was on the line if she'd have won, it'd have gone against everything we knew of her charecter as it would have put the US in danger. But at the same time, the boss not fighting to the best of her capabilites would have rendered Snakes victory illegitamte because he did really not beat the best., in which case he would not have been ready to take up the mantle. Up to you what you think.[/QUOTE] My personal interpretation was that her primary mission was to prevent the war, but her secondary, personal, mission was to groom her protege through a trial by fire to eventually surpass her. Option one: The boss wanted to win. This defeats her character as a sacrificing, selfless hero. Option two: The boss lost intentionally. This goes against her character as a the best soldier who ever lived. Option three: She groomed her protege and used that mission to make him ready to face her so that when she fought at her absolute best she knew she would loose but she had to fight her best anyway because that was ultimately her duty as well. This breaks no part of her character. [editline]27th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Helix Snake;50784714]It seems like there were plenty of moments where Gman planned for her to die. The end of Half Life 2 and beginning of Episode 1 where Alyx is rescued by Vortigaunts, and Gman responds with "We'll see about that." And then the end of Episode 2 where [sp]Eli dies, but he dies in place of Alyx Vance, who was the person the Advisers were attacking in the first place[/sp] When has Gman saved Alyx? He uses her to send a message in Episode 2 but that could have been opportunism. If [sp]Eli was the person meant to die in the Adviser attack at the end of episode 2, what purpose would sending the message to him serve?[/sp][/QUOTE] As Rikoh mentioned, G-Man acted against orders in order to rescue her from Black Mesa. Had he not intervened, she would have died. At the end of Half-Life 2, they retconned it so that G-Man was not able to place Gordon in stasis. We do not know what his intentions were, to save you, Alyx, or both. It's just that he never got the chance. [editline]27th July 2016[/editline] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wtqfAHFEg8[/media]

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;50784818]At the end of Half-Life 2, they retconned it so that G-Man was not able to place Gordon in stasis.[/QUOTE] was not a retcon, the vorts you see in the beginning of episode one prevented him from doing so