[Super Bunyhop] Watch Dogs 2 Review

[RaikohZX]

[QUOTE=JesterUK;51398130]WHERE IS THE NODDLE SHOT

Weedman is slipping[/QUOTE]

they were overcome by the scissor lifts

[Kyo]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51398126]I honestly don't get why the industry doesn't just release the game with all languages in every region. Literally seems no downside to it, other than disk space (although one could make languages optionally downloadable).[/QUOTE]

iirc people do it sometimes to discourage people from importing the game from other countries at a lower price, kind of a region lock lite. I think I remember hearing about some Japanese devs doing that.

[Mattk50]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51398126]I honestly don't get why the industry doesn't just release the game with all languages in every region. Literally seems no downside to it, other than disk space (although one could make languages optionally downloadable).[/QUOTE]

You just posted that your rationalization for drm increasing sales is "companies do it therefore it is right" one post later you are pondering why the industry doesnt do something obvious without downsides.

Have you considered that companies often don't have the correct or any methodology at all to properly measure things like piracy's impact on sales, and it comes down to random suit's decisions, their ideas about "stealing from us" and often drm is just an easy way to convince shareholders you are doing something to solve a problem.

[Jaguar]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51398126]I honestly don't get why the industry doesn't just release the game with all languages in every region. Literally seems no downside to it, other than disk space (although one could make languages optionally downloadable).[/QUOTE]

Different countries have different laws for what can be sold, as well as exchange rates.

[Novangel]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51398126]I honestly don't get why the industry doesn't just release the game with all languages in every region. Literally seems no downside to it, other than disk space (although one could make languages optionally downloadable).[/QUOTE]

Guess that's what Respawn thought when they shipped Titanfall 1 with 35GBs of audio for all languages

[Ganerumo]

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;51392626]The "Denuvo causes games to run like shit" bollocks is still a thing? It got that reputation because one of the first games to use it, Lords of the Fallen, was horribly optimised when it first came out and people assumed it was the DRM.[/QUOTE]

It [I]kept[/I] that reputation because a ton of games that use it also happen to run like dogshit, even when prior installments of the same franchise ran better without it.

Just Cause 3 ran like dogshit at launch.
Homefront The Revolution ran like dogshit at launch.
Dishonored 2 ran like dogshit at launch.
Batman Arkham Knight ran like such dogshit at launch that they had to pull the thing off the store for at least half a year in order to fix it.

It doesn't matter if Denuvo is directly responsible for bad performance or if it's circumstantial, at this point. The entire DRM is now associated with bad PC ports [I]because it keeps being found on shit PC ports.[/I] If it isn't directly responsible, then it's a bright fucking red flag that the game may run like ass due to garbage priorities and financial practices from the publisher.

I'll still buy games I want to play, Denuvo or not. But when a game runs Denuvo and isn't out yet I have immense apprehension because I just know the publishers may have bought it to cop out on a good PC port.

Fuck Denuvo for what it stands for and fuck publishers for thinking I as a customer am moronic enough to buy a game simply because the prospect of pirating it does not exist. I don't pirate games anymore, haven't done so for the better part of like eight years, because I'm not poor, I'm not a cheap shit who can afford games but refuses to buy them on principle, and I'm not fourteen years old. This doesn't mean I should have to just suck it up when publishers take potentially good games and take a fat load of shit on top of it in the form of DRM and a bad PC port, both of which are now associated and go hand in hand.

[Glitchvid]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51398126]I honestly don't get why the industry doesn't just release the game with all languages in every region. Literally seems no downside to it, other than disk space (although one could make languages optionally downloadable).[/QUOTE]

At least on steam, for localization you just have different depots for each audio language and let steam handle it.

[DEATH FETISH]

i remember only playing watch_dogs because i had a shitty computer and GTA V wasn't out on PS4 yet. this actually looks fun

[Egevened]

Lords of the Fallen
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Dishonored 2
Dragon Age: Inquisition
Batman: Arkham Knight
Homefront: The Revolution
FIFA 15-16
Far Cry Primal
Need for Speed (2016)
Rise of the Tomb Raider

All of these games I listed run denuvo, and if you look up any of them on the steam store, bad performance is the number 1 complaint on user reviews

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

Inquisition and MD both require 16 GB RAM minimum, which is nonsensical for the structures the games themseles run on. there is something going on in the background and if you are even remotely tech savvy you would understand

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

Also worthy to mention that Arkham Knight was taken down from steam, then later added back without the copy protection to address performance

[DMGaina]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51398126]I honestly don't get why the industry doesn't just release the game with all languages in every region. Literally seems no downside to it, other than disk space (although one could make languages optionally downloadable).[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=glitchvid;51399574]At least on steam, for localization you just have different depots for each audio language and let steam handle it.[/QUOTE]

I worked on the localization of ARMA 3 in 2013 and that stuff was not coordinated by Bohemia, it was up to us as being the publisher for the european region (excluding UK and France afaik) to have the game localized and we of course had to pay for the translation and the studios providing these, to make our retail release in europe more attractive to people who don't want to play it in english.

So I have 2 theories about the issue with language barriers
1. Another publisher of another region has the rights for distributing the localized version
2. Make buying the game in another region (like russia) unattractive for customers from other regions because publishers and devs don't like seeing their customers avoiding the regional market and switching to a cheaper region to save money.

There is so much weird shit going on in this industry, it's not even funny.

[Ganerumo]

Denuvo isn't even visibly all that good for sales considering Bethesda's sales of their two most hyped/marketed titles of the past 12 months.

Fallout 4 sold literally three times as much on Steam as Doom did, despite the fact that Fallout 4 doesn't have Denuvo and is as easy to pirate as you'd expect. And they were both hyped to the fucking moon and beyond.

[FpShepard]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51399706]Fallout 4 sold literally three times as much on Steam as Doom did, despite the fact that Fallout 4 doesn't have Denuvo and is as easy to pirate as you'd expect. And they were both hyped to the fucking moon and beyond.[/QUOTE]

Pretty shit example, a niche first person shooter from a developer who hasn't made a good game since 2004 vs a new open world [I]"RPG"[/I] from the creators of skyrim, a game that sold more than crack. If Doom wouldn't have had Denuvo, it would have sold just as much as it would have with Denuvo.. Other than the few who chose to boycott it over the DRM

[RaikohZX]

Honestly Watch_Dogs 2 seems like a game i'd probably buy on a price drop, and I mean that in a good way since the first game looked so damn boring. It looks like it improved generally everything, except debatably the story.

[Ganerumo]

[QUOTE=FpShepard;51399736]Pretty shit example, a niche first person shooter from a developer who hasn't made a good game since 2004 vs a new open world [I]"RPG"[/I] from the creators of skyrim, a game that sold more than crack. If Doom wouldn't have had Denuvo, it would have sold just as much as it would have with Denuvo.. Other than the few who chose to boycott it over the DRM[/QUOTE]

How the fuck is doom niche ? What even is your logic behind this ?

[Janus Vesta]

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399669]Lords of the Fallen
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Dishonored 2
Dragon Age: Inquisition
Batman: Arkham Knight
Homefront: The Revolution
FIFA 15-16
Far Cry Primal
Need for Speed (2016)
Rise of the Tomb Raider

All of these games I listed run denuvo, and if you look up any of them on the steam store, bad performance is the number 1 complaint on user reviews

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

Inquisition and MD both require 16 GB RAM minimum, which is nonsensical for the structures the games themseles run on. there is something going on in the background and if you are even remotely tech savvy you would understand

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

Also worthy to mention that Arkham Knight was taken down from steam, then later added back without the copy protection to address performance[/QUOTE]

Mandkind Divided and Inquisition run fine. They also do not need 16GB of RAM at all. I played Inquisition with 8GB of RAM and it neve used more than half of that. Game developers just put ridiculous 'requirements' on the store page to cover their asses incase the game runs poorly on some 5 year old machine.

They shouldn't do that but they do.

[rndgenerator]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51399706]Denuvo isn't even visibly all that good for sales considering Bethesda's sales of their two most hyped/marketed titles of the past 12 months.

Fallout 4 sold literally three times as much on Steam as Doom did, despite the fact that Fallout 4 doesn't have Denuvo and is as easy to pirate as you'd expect. And they were both hyped to the fucking moon and beyond.[/QUOTE]People were VERY skeptical about new doom. Especially after multiplayer beta. People didn't buy it not because of drm but because doom 3 and the beta left them quite sour. According to what I could find on the internet, it sold really damn well and runs just as well despite the DRM.
You can't compare it to fallout as that one simply has a much larger appeal and player base. Also Fallout 4 ran (and still does) like total ass despite not having Denuvo.

[Natrox]

[QUOTE=Mattk50;51398483]You just posted that your rationalization for drm increasing sales is "companies do it therefore it is right" one post later you are pondering why the industry doesnt do something obvious without downsides.

Have you considered that companies often don't have the correct or any methodology at all to properly measure things like piracy's impact on sales, and it comes down to random suit's decisions, their ideas about "stealing from us" and often drm is just an easy way to convince shareholders you are doing something to solve a problem.[/QUOTE]

I work in said industry. Some things I know the answer to, some I don't. I've explained to you before that companies do it, not just because they can, but:

1. They must have done the research for DRM to be a worthwhile investment.
2. DRM is a pretty cheap gamble.
3. Companies have the right to protect their product.

Seriously, if you're going to assume that game companies only just do stuff to please 'suits', you're misguided.

But hey, I am kinda done talking to you. The first post where I replied to you, you rated it dumb and didn't return. Now you're just cherry picking my posts.

Go ahead and read these for perspective:
[url]https://gamerant.com/video-game-piracy-damage-opinion/[/url]
[url]http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html[/url]

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE=DMGaina;51399693]I worked on the localization of ARMA 3 in 2013 and that stuff was not coordinated by Bohemia, it was up to us as being the publisher for the european region (excluding UK and France afaik) to have the game localized and we of course had to pay for the translation and the studios providing these, to make our retail release in europe more attractive to people who don't want to play it in english.

So I have 2 theories about the issue with language barriers
1. Another publisher of another region has the rights for distributing the localized version
2. Make buying the game in another region (like russia) unattractive for customers from other regions because publishers and devs don't like seeing their customers avoiding the regional market and switching to a cheaper region to save money.

There is so much weird shit going on in this industry, it's not even funny.[/QUOTE]

I guess that makes sense, even though it's unfortunate.

[Egevened]

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;51399766]Mandkind Divided and Inquisition run fine. They also do not need 16GB of RAM at all. I played Inquisition with 8GB of RAM and it neve used more than half of that. Game developers just put ridiculous 'requirements' on the store page to cover their asses incase the game runs poorly on some 5 year old machine.

They shouldn't do that but they do.[/QUOTE]

"it works for me lol" does not discredit the thousands of legitimate complaints by users that hit way more than recommended settings for them

[Natrox]

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399669]... Rise of the Tomb Raider ...[/QUOTE]

This is the game I worked on. It runs fine, but what I've seen a lot on the Steam forums is people somehow thinking they should have the ability to run the game on highest settings with a card that just doesn't cut it.

We have seen so many complaints from people not being able to run the game with 'Very High' textures, on their 4GB cards - that we had to add a warning to the settings screen to discourage people from picking settings they can't run.

[Egevened]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51399794]This is the game I worked on. It runs fine, but what I've seen a lot on the Steam forums is people somehow thinking they should have the ability to run the game on highest settings with a card that just doesn't cut it.

We have seen so many complaints from people not being able to run the game with 'Very High' textures, on their 4GB cards - that we had to add a warning to the settings screen to discourage people from picking settings they can't run.[/QUOTE]

what about the non-braindead users that complain about the game not running above 15fps and with stuttering on low, even though their rigs were considered high end 2 years ago, and they hit the requirements with flying colors

[Natrox]

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399799]what about the non-braindead users that complain about the game not running above 15fps and with stuttering on low, even though their rigs were considered high end 2 years ago, and they hit the requirements with flying colors[/QUOTE]

Link me to an example.

[Ganerumo]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51399794]This is the game I worked on. It runs fine, but what I've seen a lot on the Steam forums is people somehow thinking they should have the ability to run the game on highest settings with a card that just doesn't cut it.

We have seen so many complaints from people not being able to run the game with 'Very High' textures, on their 4GB cards - that we had to add a warning to the settings screen to discourage people from picking settings they can't run.[/QUOTE]

Hey if you worked on the game perhaps you can actually shed a light on the exact process of incorporating Denuvo into a game because I'm legitimately curious if there's any sort of adaptation or tinkering needed for it to work.

[Breadman]

[QUOTE=FpShepard;51399736]Pretty shit example, a niche first person shooter from a developer who hasn't made a good game since 2004 vs a new open world [I]"RPG"[/I] from the creators of skyrim, a game that sold more than crack. If Doom wouldn't have had Denuvo, it would have sold just as much as it would have with Denuvo.. Other than the few who chose to boycott it over the DRM[/QUOTE]

How did you get these sales projections? And how is DOOM a niche product?

[Natrox]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51399806]Hey if you worked on the game perhaps you can actually shed a light on the exact process of incorporating Denuvo into a game because I'm legitimately curious if there's any sort of adaptation or tinkering needed for it to work.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it's wise for me to reveal that, as I do not think that is public information. Sorry.

EDIT:
Found this for you:
[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/CrackStatus/comments/4mtb46/conversation_with_a_denuvo_employee/[/url]

[Egevened]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51399805]Link me to an example.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010929861/recommended/391220/[/url]
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/sclingan/recommended/391220/[/url]
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970491766/recommended/391220/[/url]
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/Kempec/recommended/391220/[/url]
[url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/drewmba/recommended/391220/[/url]

here you go, time to stop the ostrich politics

[FpShepard]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51399763]How the fuck is doom niche ? What even is your logic behind this ?[/QUOTE]

Niche may be a bad choice of words, but still Doom would have no chance competing with sale numbers of Fallout. Doesn't help that Bethesda also did such a bad job marketing Doom.

[Egevened]

[QUOTE=Natrox;51399819]I don't think it's wise for me to reveal that, as I do not think that is public information. Sorry.

EDIT:
Found this for you:
[URL]https://www.reddit.com/r/CrackStatus/comments/4mtb46/conversation_with_a_denuvo_employee/[/URL][/QUOTE]

this link says nothing.

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

like i read the entire thing and it is literally pussyfooting around the question

[Ganerumo]

Doom's marketing was only poorly received among hardcore gamers who mostly changed their minds when the game came out. The average consumer was hyped as fuck from the E3 reveal and onwards.

[Natrox]

Okay, time to debunk every link on your list:

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399820][url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010929861/recommended/391220/[/url][/QUOTE]

No specs other than GPU listed. No settings listed. Useless to me.

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399820][url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/sclingan/recommended/391220/[/url][/QUOTE]

Barely any information. Just a bunch of rage and weird hate directed towards NVIDIA for some reason.

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399820][url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970491766/recommended/391220/[/url][/QUOTE]

Long speech about how Denuvo is bad. Doesn't prove anything, doesn't list specs or settings. Useless once again, which is a shame because this guy can actually spell.

"Denuvo is inrusive, needlessly affects performance, installs unwanted software that remains on your PC even after the game is removed, and most importantly is totally unnessecary."

Denuvo doesn't install anything on your PC.

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399820][url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/Kempec/recommended/391220/[/url][/QUOTE]

The very first user you listed that may have some legitimate problems with the game. However, I feel like some things are happening because of reasons outside of our control.
"Frame drops with Top GPU. (GTX980TI)". No mention of setting used and in combination with what CPU make this a bit of an empty statement.
"Crashes due to "Not enough RAM". Since when are 16GB not enough?". The game will not use a full 16GB, we carefully measured memory usage in every area of the game. In this case it sounds like he has a bunch of other stuff open.

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399820][url]http://steamcommunity.com/id/drewmba/recommended/391220/[/url][/QUOTE]

No mention of other specs or settings (resolution?). A shitty CPU can easily hamper the game. 770m is a poor chip, a bit slower than the 750TI ([url]http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-770M-vs-Nvidia-GTX-750-Ti/m7724vs2187[/url]). SLI doesn't work well.

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE=Egevened;51399837]this link says nothing.

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

like i read the entire thing and it is literally pussyfooting around the question[/QUOTE]

What? The link explains how Denuvo is integrated, which is what Ganerumo asked;

[quote]Integration workflow into a game:
The protection is a post-compiler step and does not need any source code modifications on your end (only three compiler / linker settings must be enabled in VS).
We have an online encryption service which is available as SaaS (hosted in the AWS).
Step 1: Provide us (access to) a (running) build with three compiler / linker settings enabled: /pdb /map /fixed:no; the Steam app ID and Steam private key
Step 2: We create and run our performance profiler and play the game collecting performance uncritical functions
Step 3: We setup the game project on the protection server and send a cmd line tool to the dev team with instructions how to embed it to the build process
Step 4: When running the protection our engine decompiles the exe, parses the collected functions from step 2, injects the security code and recompiles the executable (and creates an updated pdb for debugging)[/quote]

[Ganerumo]

I find it kind of worrying that Denuvo's basically accessed solely by its company and that once it's installed into the software there's very little developers can actually do to modify it.

From the point Denuvo gets installed it sounds like everything regarding it becomes workarounds and band-aid solutions more than legitimate fixes.

[editline]20th November 2016[/editline]

Also Reddit's been inaccessible for me for like a month so thanks for actually quoting the process