Chemicals in the water which turns the chemicals in the water which turns the frogs gay gay
It is a mistake to engage each and every Trump supporter as if they're worthy of your time after one probes to see that they will ignore and/or dismiss anything brought up and refuse to answer questions regarding why they have done so when pressed further, but it is also a mistake to dismiss anyone who voted Trump as falling into this category.
If they do not question their own criteria for what is a valid fact no matter what you throw at them, then your time is wasted. If they do, then maybe they know something else that you are not aware of that might be feeding into their will to support Trump, a thing that can easily be discovered by asking further questions - and a thing which then can be engaged as well.
True, but that's exactly why I believe debate as a whole is failing and the two groups are headed for a war, whatever form that may take.
I am not advocating for violence against those who think differently, but once one side completely stops being receptive to verbal arguments from the other side, I don't see how it can get resolved without a conflict.
whataboutism is getting really rediculous, there's no accountability, especially if the other person conflates conspiracy theories with facts to deflect.
"Trump is opening concentration camps on military bases to house immigrants indefinetly."
"Obama femacamp, walmart detention center."
the issue with the rebuttle is 1) the walmart detention center was originally set up for unaccompanied children and is licenced and run with child specialists and 2) obama fema deathcamps were not real, just a rush limbaugh conspiracy but you can't confront the reality that trump has by accounts, tasked the pentagon with establishing massive migrant camps on US military bases, or even begin to question the morality of it when they just jump to "but he did it too."
because someone else did it too doesn't make it right or moral or even justified, the internment camps weren't right but you can see people justifying our modern ones because of it.
From an overseas prospective, the US has looked like it has been struggling for the time I've been on this planet. Someone like Trump was going to come along and attempt the impossible, everything was well overdue for a correction, it is better to get it out of the way now than suffer even more later.
I remember someone on old punch saying they supported Trump as a sort of "nothing to lose thing".
Thing is you're assuming he will be a correcting force and that there is nothing to lose. There is much to lose and he may not be a correction (I believe he won't be a correction). So that line of thought is, imo, illogical.
I view Trump, or someone like Trump an inevitable event that was bound to happen in our current direction of travel, I prefer to a correction now, than down the track.
I also believe that. America has gone this direction for a very long time. Better for it to happen now when half the population is still conscious how terrible Trump is and everything he represents. The next president has a decent chance to be great because of this.
Ostracizing people would be effective if they had no other place to take their views to. If a far-right conservative were to be mostly surrounded with progressives who do not want to engage with their views for an extended period of time, they will eventually start questioning their own beliefs and begin adjusting themselves.
I myself used to hold pretty conservative, isolationist views in terms of immigration laws. But once I started to hang out on this forum, SH specifically, I started getting some perspective on things. I'm still pretty reactionary (which is probably due to some underlying anger issues I've had since birth) and I often wish this wasn't the case, but overall my views have improved drastically since a few years ago.
And if I remember from what I read about denazification, ostracizing also worked in Germany after the second World War. The occupying countries couldn't actually prosecute all those involved with the Nazi regime in a reasonable time, but since it was not only socially unacceptable but also criminal to express support for Nazism, Nazi viewpoints started to vanish from Germany as time went on.
The problem nowadays is that we have the internet, with many highly popular outlets available for people to post their racist, socially unacceptable views on without consequence. On the contrary, they may even enjoy great popularity due to being surrounded by like-minded individuals. This ranges from Reddit, to 4chan, all the way to Facebook and even certain subsections on the Steam Forums.
Considering this, subreddits such as r/the_donald and boards like /pol/ should really be shut down for good. I am not at all convinced by the claim that they are containment boards/subreddits. There is no need for such a thing if a community simply ostracizes and drives these views from the site. It has worked very well with Facepunch after all. Once there is no place to take their views anymore, it is them who will have to adapt.
In reality, I think /pol/ and r/the_donald are much more alike to incubation pods that proliferate and breed the views they harbor. If you keep them alive, they will grow in significance and power over time.
The impression I get of US politics currently, looking at this from the UK is that it's treated like a sports team - you either support the Republican Team or the Democrat Team.
It's hard for me to gauge US political awareness given my conversations are generally with other UK people, but are many US folk engaged in the nuances of policy rather than simply being partisan?
It is highly unlikely that such forums of congregation breeding further entrenchment in toxic ideology would be eradicated at all (as long as freedom of the net is a high ideal for people) and it is indeed easier to keep contact with such people if one happens to befriend them and at least try to introduce doubt into their views - certainly better than not fulfilling these basic social needs and instead having these needs fulfilled by people who will use them and further radicalize them.
It is rare to be in a position to have both your voice heard and words seriously considered, best not to throw that opportunity for change away.
SH changed me too. I was pretty much advocating for communism for a loooong time. Over time I've become more moderate. 1 guy in particular, flashmarsh, had a pretty big influence on my view of capitalism and conservatism. I'm still socialist and progressive but I see there are important things to offer, from capitalism the mitigation of risk (if a strictly socialist government fails to provide a service its a disaster, if one of several private companies fail its ok) and from conservatism the importance of identity and culture (its in our nature to seek context via identity, if people dont have it they turn to extremism and radical stuff). FP has been very beneficial for me.
And before college I was a right lil arsehole; racist, sexist and homophobic.
That doesn't really pan out in the long run as they simply become chameleons. They mask their views and they spread in much more subversive and hard to detect ways. They aren't challenged and contradicted on them and pushed in to other views, but just stew in them. And this also risks pushing them towards breaking points of being spree killers or other actively dangerous individuals.
Containment boards have the same problems, they're isolated echo chambers. Where they just have themselves to feed in to. Confrontation is necessary, but it has to be smart, every environment for it will be different. Trying to argue in /pol/ is a much different beast than r/t_d and requires a different approach. And it takes a lot of patience that, to be honest, a lot of people don't have these days. I mean you have to treat it almost like an undercover operation where you need very determined and resilient people to go through with it. Shutting them down does nothing because they'll just find new ground to go to. There is always new ground to go to, especially in our modern, internationally connected age.
The craziest thing has happened, I find myself somewhat agreeing with Boilrig here. Trump and the 2016 election as a whole highlight some glaring problems with the US political system. Personality took the spotlight from policy. Like it or not, he was incredibly successful in using schoolyard tactics to disqualify his opposition during the primaries and the election its self, pandering to the GOP's demographic with a few false promises and appealing to the reasons for which they believed America needed making great again, and simply presenting himself as something other than a corporate dicksuck (Which the alternative at the time of election very much was). If that's all it takes to then push a radical agenda forwards, not to mention all this happening despite obvious corruption and collusion with foreign states, you have an inherently unstable and easily exploitable system.
One way or another, Trump's presidency will be talked about for as long as the US exists. Hopefully as case-in-point for positive political reform.
As someone who has a very fucking strange mixture of socialism, libertarianism, Zero Growther and reformed luddite. Don't ask me how I debate people because 3/4ths of the time I barely make sense outside my own head.
My issue is that before Trump, I knew that no matter, conservative, communist, neoliberal, moderate. I could debate with an American and I knew that they were looking for whats best for me and themselves, even if we didn't agree in policy. With Trump? It very much seems to be that he's corrupted that into 'ONLY I KNOW WHATS BEST FOR YOU' instead of preferential and maybe even synergistic solutions. There is no debating with a group who so thoroughly believe in conspiracy theories that they'll scream at children who were shot at as being fakers.
And I won't debate them, yes there are Trump supporters who are disillusioned and I'll happily talk with them, because again, I know that they thought at the time he was the best solution. I can't fault a poor man out in the boonies with no job and surrounded by drugs to be enamored by a strong man. I can blame one who sees that everything has gotten worse but don't realize it or even worse, refuse to acknowledge it.
As a rule of thumb, arguing in places where there is either absolutely no incentive to take arguments seriously or places in which it is encouraged to save face will always limit your abilities to actually engage a person and their ideas without psychological defense barriers getting in the way. It is for this reason friendships and other such close correspondences are very valuable due to the opportunity to engage with a person in an environment in which they will not necessarily be on the defensive (as long as they have the capacity to understand whatever ideas you're trying to communicate, and you have the capacity to express these ideas properly in speech or text in a way comprehensible to them).
I mean, I'm an Authoritarian (if I was racist I'd probably be a Fascist) and I hate Trump.
I think I should be clear that we aren't referring to people like you have demonstrated they can hold discussions and have, like, actual cognitive functions.
Jokes aside.
We are pointing to a rapidly growing segment of republicans beginning to believe things like "sandy hook shooting is a hoax", since big right wing media such as fox news are dragging it into the mainstream.
Im actually met a lot of people in recently, in person, who don't believe in the moon landings.
Im just at a loss
I have respect for other political opinions up to the point that people begin willfully disregarding established and verifiable facts, and/or embracing willful ignorance and presenting misinformation and disinformation as if it is every bit as valid just because they FEEL like it is.
Unfortunately for America, this is core of Trumpism. It's not a political party, it's a political cult, with an almost religious zeal and an unshakeable faith in their dogma. To Cult 45, Facts don't matter. Truth doesn't matter. Reality doesn't matter.
To Cult 45, Democrats are responsible for tearing apart immigrant families, a wall can stop immigration and smuggling, Obama was a Muslim Kenyan, the FBI is the Deep State making up crimes to frame Trump, and Hillary only won the popular vote because millions of illegals voted.
I appreciate your efforts here, but my faith that rational debate is an effective counter to a radical embrace of pure fantasy is critically shaken.
any historical figures you think you align closely with?
How can you be certain the specific shade of Trump supporter you're speaking to inwardly belongs to such a cult (unless they express such opinions openly), though?
Do you acknowledge the possibility not every person who supports Trump is in full support of all he does and says - including the view of reality he promotes?
I voted for Trump out of a case of no other options on the national ballot where I am. It was between Clinton and Trump, that's it. Had it not been Clinton or a moderate midwest Democract, I would of voted for them.
On the local level I vote a mixture of Republicans, Democract-NPL, and Libertarian. Realistically speaking, voting on the local level is truer to form, as the vote on the national level usually will never see your vote mean jackshit.
The United States as a whole has had a major wakeup call thanks to this vote, but I fear such a thing was already too late. We are already seeing the extremes of both sides fighting in the streets, and gaining ground politically. It doesn't help that polarization in this country has disallowed for any serious political discourse too occur on any meaningful level.
Not sure exactly where I fall politically, and I have yet to see a decent political test.
Shunning someone for having socially unacceptable opinions isn't the same as shielding members of a cult from outside contact. Besides, I think I should qualify this by saying that I wouldn't want someone to be ostracized for having different opinions on, for example, gun control or military spendings. Advocating the abduction of children however? Nope, that's disgusting.
And yeah, I would like to let other people be stupid if they didn't drag everyone else down with them. Trump didn't elect himself, you know...
In the U.S probably both Roosevelts, Truman (somewhat), and Huey Long (who I think is basically what people wanted from Trump) despite the memes.
I wanna clarify that I'm not a Trump supporter and I can't wait to see his orange ass in jail. Which is why it wounds me when conservatives in general are lumped in with his ilk. In my hick town here in Texas I am starting to notice flags being flown upside down and all the Trump bumper stickers have vanished. Things are changing, painting with a wide brush isn't going to encourage doubting Trump supporters to flip. It just reinforces his narrative.
lol, this so damn hard. I practically rolled my eyes when I read the title of this thread because I knew exactly how it'd end up, and sure enough the fourth post was a "righties are basically no better than flat earthers dont bother"
I don't do political debates at all, mostly because I'm a dumb dumb, but they used to be incredibly insightful and thought provoking to read. Even when they were at their messiest, I would always learn a perspective from someone I didn't previously understand through political debates.
The current political landscape simply doesn't allow for that, especially here. It's the fault of both sides, of course. The far alt-right for being actually crazy lunatics and the lefties for being unwilling to accept any form of gradient within the political spectrum. I swear to some people, once you drift slightly right from the center of the political spectrum, you're, well, as good as a flat earther.
I only care about this so much not exposing myself enough to opinions I don't agree with (ie inherently right/conservative policies, generally) has me feeling like I'm at risk of dumbing down my own opinions. Again, this is a problem on both sides. Conservatives posting here tend to only post out-there articles to counter balance the fact that more moderate opinions of theirs are still met with a hefty showering of dumbs, and everyone else, well, showers conservatives with dumbs.
Keep in mind I'm not necessarily referring to Trump supporters in general with this post. To an extent I agree that it's as good as arguing with a flat earther. But I feel that mindset has become a catch-all way to interpret things that aren't already inherently left.
You realize that not so long ago homosexuality was a "socially unacceptable opinion," right?
You can't pick and choose which ideas are good or bad for society, because h
Humans are complicated and ideas aren't just black or white.
I agree that a platform of abducting children without reason isnt a good thing.
But, forgive me because I haven't been keeping up on the news, I imagine you might be referring to a situation that is perhaps a little more morally grey than just "abducting children."
identifying as a full-blown anything is bad. all it does is constrict your thinking and political opinions.
trump has done bad things, trump has done good things. i hate how politics is seen as black and white, i.e. you hate trump wow you're a good enlightened person vs. wow you like trump you're a fucking bigot.
facepunch is overwhelmingly left and it does mean that generally conservative posters are cowed into silence. you can always argue that they shouldn't feel that way but psychologically when you get dumbed by a ratio of 5-1 other ratings and you have multiple people attack your opinions, it is very hard to see the value in posting your opinions on something.
people need to realise that the people on the other side aren't fucking evil, no matter what they say, they're simply voicing their opinion on how they feel something should be done. everyone argues because they fervently believe that their opinions are the only right way to tackle a problem and they think everyone on the other side are somehow retarded for not seeing things their way.
it doesn't help that 'snark' is considered a viable argumentative device these days.
You're on the internet. There's no debate to be had, only a shitstorm of a flamewar. Nobody sensible comes to the internet to have an actual, honest, informative debate where opinions are open to changing.
I certainly don't. If I want an actual intellectual debate I'll do it face-to-face. If I'm in polidicks it's because I'm here to see what dumb thing Trump did this hour and to crack wise about it, or perhaps vent an opinion on a given topic. I'm not here for debate and I'm never going to seriously engage in any here.
Being face-to-face eliminates and/or minimizes a lot of the issues you are bringing up here, mostly because those issue stem from the anonymity and the ease-of-disconnecting, is why I won't ever engage in a serious debate online.
With almost all Republican representatives in Senate and House seemingly kissing Trump's feet, it's easy to get the impression that the Republican party as a whole is corrupted.
Though I personally never got a bad impression from you. You usually also bring up very good arguments in the gun control threads -- one of the few cases in American politics nowadays where I really believe that the conservative view is more reasonable than the left-wing view.
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