Immigrants setting fire to 60 cars at frölunda torg in Sweden - General

Here's your comment in its full context then. There's nothing here that indicates I was trying to misrepresent you...

Good thing you aren't, then.

Yeah that's one of my comments but look through the thread. And that comment is not racist either because again I'm not saying that x causes y. Only thing I would change to be more factual is adding generally.

https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/204913/b3a20518-b45b-43d7-8d86-56f65b898ba5/image.png

Really this could equally well be women, because we should never assume anything at any point. When details are never released, people are left to speculate. Expecting people to go "could be anyone" when no stats are released, and their personal experiences are that immigrants are the ones causing trouble in their neighbourhood is just utopic. Svidde might be a racist right-winger, I really can't tell you, but expecting people to never wonder about who might've set their car on fire is just laughable. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that these areas are lower-income, have relatively large immigrant populations and crime. Based on that I'm gonna say the people who set fire to these cars were most likely immigrants or children of immigrants. If they're ethnic Swedes I'll be a bit surprised. It's not like Facepunch doesn't assume once in a while - I distinctly remember a black Church being set on fire during the presidential campaign in the US. Everyone were sure that Nazis did it (and the perpetrator had drawn a swastika as well as far as I recall), but then it turned out to be some black dude (basically a false flag). Was it unreasonable to assume that Nazis did it? Not really.

Agreed, I think this is a big part of what's pushing polarization in Sweden and other places of Europe but I think we can still save it. We have an election this September where SD who are basically social democrats with a modern view on health care and immigration will be either the biggest or second biggest party. They are considered racists and far right internationally even though they are more center than most of the worlds normal right wing. When they've been in government for a while hopefully it will be ok to talk about these things again and we can unify the population.

I'd also like to point out that if it was not immigrants that did this, you can bet your ass we would know exactly who did. They would not keep that quiet, they want to shut up the far right as quickly as possible typically.

Lol, the Sweden Democrats have roots in fascist far-right circles, and that's not even further back than when its current leader got into the party. They're considered racists because many of them probably are - people are thrown out when recordings surface, sure, but you're having a laugh if you think it's not definitely there in the background. The other parties' inability to even really touch immigration as a serious issue is not a free pass to call your party of choice Social Democrats but with "modern views" on some stuff. They're nationalists, many of them are racists, and I doubt they're gonna solve your problems. I understand the frustration in the Swedish population, though.

Who doesn't, though?

Sure but it's besides the point. We can't censor these events because it makes people angry, of course it makes people angry, and the far right are the ones that shout and scream about it, but many others share the same concerns even if they don't share the same levels of xenophobia. It's an injustice to those people and I'd say it's likely to make people more far right leaning because it's the only circle in which their grievances are heard.

I guess we will have to wait and see but I'm optimistic about Sweden in particular. If you look at places like Poland it's starting to get a bit creepy though.

Adding generally completely changes the comment. There's a big difference between thinking in absolutes and not.

Yes they do. Do know where the current ruling party with most time in the government position has their roots? They were socialists who proclaimed that we should use violence to exterminate the classes in society and did it on a smaller scale. Then around 1900 - 1940 they spent money on race biology and sterilised blacks and certain "untermensch". Point is, many parties have a dark history and the only reason SDs roots are being discussed so much is because they were filled with nazis relatively recently around 1970 - 80. They have since developed a lot and now look like a normal party, they have zero tolerance for racism so whenever it's outed which happens sometimes, the person get fired like you say. There are probably racists in the party and there are probably many racists voting for the party, I don't dispute that, but their manifest and their party leader seems like the best choice for Sweden right now IMO. Also since we don't have a one party system they would never be able to push racist laws etc. and they have nothing to do a coup with. There is no reason to think that what happened in the Weimar republic is even close to happening again. What I think will happen is that we will be able to have a better discussion about immigration and integration that will lead to a more unified Sweden. The other parties don't even acknowledge that we have a culture except for KD.

Since it seems pretty clear that you're gonna vote for SD, I guess I'll give you a warning and say that I for a long while didn't take the Danish People's party to actually be racists - I thought they were Social Democrats who were much harsher on immigration. Not that they're big enough, it's pretty clear that they actually are (among other things) - you have one of their main guys running around basically saying that "good people eat pigs", and if you're scared about what's happening in Poland, the same party (and the same guy) has flirted with the idea of more government control of the courts (sound familiar?) among other things. They literally shot down a law that would take away government financial support for organizations with members charged with hate crimes (meant to target Muslim societies, really), because it would inadvertently hit their youth organisation (of which many obviously were convicted for racist stuff). These people aren't just social democrats with a little twist, they're a hodgepodge party containing everything from far right nationalists to disillusioned social democrats. Hand waving away that half of the party just because their front man dresses nice and doesn't call black people monkeys on live television is a big mistake.

yeah okay Tre nazister fälls för serie av bombdåd i Göteborg

Government control of the courts and good people eat pigs I don't agree with but taking away financial support from organizations with members charged with hate crime is a great idea if the law is phrased in a good way I think. The ban on burkas and niqabs in public places is also something I would promote, I don't care if someone want to wear a hijab though. I think your ruling party have done some good stuff and some bad stuff but the pig thing and control of courts has got to have some more background to it, can I see? (not trying to be an asshole or call you out). I don't think you can compare them like this either even though they have talked with each other and agree on much. I mean shooting down every party who doesn't like Islam and unregulated immigration would make for a very one sided government. I am probably going to vote for SD or maybe KD this election btw, haven't decided. Last time I voted for the moderates but as you say everyone except SD and now KD (which is dying) refuse to address the problem.

Whoa there, ya Nazi!

It is not a crime to make assumptions, or educated guesses. It should be a bannable offense, however, to twist external sources to fit your opinion and to state your opinion as fact. Svidde didn't post a thread called "60 cars torched in Sweden" and then explained that he believed immigrants were the culprits. He claimed he knew with certainty it was immigrants, and he didn't just fail to provide any proof, he claimed proof wasn't necessary because he just knew that was the truth. He's played the good old "if you really cared you would find the sources by yourself, I don't have to provide them" card, a true classic. I have no idea if this thread is proof he's 0%, 25%, 50% or 100% nazi, and I don't care. It is proof that he's 100% a shitposter and detrimental to intelligent discussion.

Maybe I phrased it badly, but they opposed that law exactly because it included racism as a form of extremism: https://politiken.dk/indland/politik/art5623575/DF-sagde-nej-til-stramninger-for-at-beskytte-racismed%C3%B8mte-DFUere Basically, including racism as a form of extremism would be bad, because their youth organization has a bunch of racists in it, and they didn't want them losing money. I think there are very good reasons to infer stuff from one party to another - these parties are very similar in their approach to politics, and are achieving similar levels of success. Of course there are differences, but I would take DF as a cautionary tale. It doesn't mean they reflect the majority view, but you have to think about what kind of party Jimmie actually joined back then. Nowadays support is strong for the party (and thus you could make an argument that newcomers are fairly moderate), but back then it was extremely niche (from Wiki): Sweden Democrat Youth (Sverigedemokratisk Ungdom, SDU) was the youth league of the Swedish political party Sweden Democrats (Sverigedemokraterna) until 12 September 2015, when the party announced that they would break with the youth league after an extended conflict with its mother party amid allegations that members had collaborated with the fascist Nordic Youth organization. The leading members of SDU, amongst others leader Jessica Ohlson and former leader Gustav Kasselstrand, would then go on to form the right-wing populist party Alternative for Sweden in March 2018. The youth league was founded in 1993 as an independent youth league to its parent party. The original name was Sverigedemokraternas Ungdomsförbund (Sweden Democratic Youth Association), but the organization was soon renamed Sverigedemokratisk Ungdom. The youth league was disbanded in 1995 due to rampant problems with neo-Nazism in the ranks, but was reestablished as an independent organization in 1998. Jimmie joined in 1995 by the way. Either he has had a very high tolerance for listening to racists and Nazis, or else he might've flirted with those ideas. When your top men and women have to resign because of racists comments, I have a hard time believing they've literally done something similar in his presence.

I know that they were immigrants though, I just can't prove it because there is no mainstream media source which is part of the problem.

So dramatic.

Preface: I'm not an SD-voter, nor am I aligned with any party in general. Color me naive, but Vänsterpartiet used to be full-blown, genuine communists. Their name reflected it, "Vänsterpartiet Kommunisterna". The social democrats outright held institutes some 50 years ago that performed forced sterilizations. You can dig into a partys history, but it becomes vastly irrelevant to their actions today. As far as I can tell, Jimmies joined with the express intention of reforming the party - and you can not deny he's managed to do that very well. The zero-tolerance policy isn't bullshit. It's very clear that members who have been kicked out show contempt and join other radicalized groups (ie NMR or AFS) that outright condemn SD for being "too liberal" - NMR outright called SD "traitors" and that they would have its members lined up and shot if they were in deciding power. I'd say that's indicative of the direction the party has even within its own private walls, that the values they hold aren't just an "outward facade".

Thanks for the source, it was an interesting read. You make a good case about this and I understand the concern but it just feels so far fetched to me. At some point you gotta draw a line and say the party is alright and I think that's now. I want to vote KD to get a government where SD has less influence but they risk coming in under 4% which means my vote will be thrown away and we might have to endure 4 more years with this crooked government. Then it would be better to have a strong SD in opposition to challenge them. If they would listen of course, otherwise it might be the other way around. What I'm sure of though is that it takes more than 4 years for SD to change the country into a racist nationalist state and if they start to display the kind of behaviour Dansk folkeparti do I can vote against it and work to oppose it through spreading the word like I try to do now. I also think that it's necessary to have a center- right wing government now to stop polarization because if SD don't get into the government now and the left keep ignoring them there might be something resembling a race war in Sweden during the next 4 years.

My assumptions are based on my friend who was there and heard them. But let's leave the topic of their country of origin and see, I doubt there will be any information about it though. They will brush it off as young people being frustrated as usual.

Please do not answer to my "I'm sick of shitposts" post with a shitpost, it really doesn't help your case. Oh, as I said, I literally could not care less about the politics of Sweden. I am not even denying immigrants could be a problem, or that it is likely it was immigrants. I do not have the necessary political and historical background to argue what political party is best for Sweden. I just know that going around on the internet telling lies because you feel they are the truth is not what I want to see on this forum. Just because you feel like you know it doesn't mean you know. You're fully entitled to your opinion, but you unless you have proof for it you should present it as opinion, not fact, and stop muddying the waters.

I'd say what a party was twenty years ago and what a party was 50 years ago are two pretty different things. I'd also argue that while Nazism is basically inseparable from Hitler and genocide, communism has its roots before Stalin. I'm no fan of communists, as a side note, but the relevance of Vänsterpartiet also seems fairly vague in this discussion. You can choose to believe that Jimmie joined with the express purpose of reforming that party, but I must admit that I find that a bit of a tenuous claim - I'm no expert on the history of the Sweden Democrats, but if you could come up with a proper source that describes what he did in his early days in the party, that would be nice. At a base level I find it unlikely that you would look at a party full of Nazis and other goodfolk, and then say "I totally disagree with most of that, so I'll join and reform it". I don't doubt that the zero tolerance policy is enforced, but that's not why I call it bullshit - I find it very, very unlikely that people who have never been racist before suddenly start saying racist things on camera once. I find it much more likely that these people, who have by all accounts associated with Jimmie for a long time, have always been racists, have always said racist things, and it's only a problem for the party when it's caught on camera. It shows that the party is willing to promote these people to the top, as long as their behaviour isn't publicly known - that suggests to me that the policy is just a facade. That parties further on the right are angry with them doesn't necessarily give them many marks in my book.

Dont worry, im sure infowars has your back. This whole "the mainstream media ignores all X!" really only applies to tv news. There are plenty of reputable institutions that report on these things when they happen and have evidence. If you can't find anything to support your point of view, then perhaps you should look at yourself instead of blaming the world

Arson suspect held in Turkey over Sweden car fires While they still haven't released the name or ethnicity, I'm hazarding a guess that white swedes don't run to Turkey.

The problem with all the major parties is that there's little difference, S and V may have been more socialist back in the day but nowdays they're little different from any of the other parties. That's one of the reasons SD is different and so attractive to so many, because they don't reflect the liberal establishment we have. What we need in Sweden isn't SD, but a new party with modern ideals that focuses in modern issues because all the major parties are on one hand stuck in the old days when workers rights and left-right politics was the thing, and on the other hand are not living up to their roots (how can they though, we're past those times).

For the record: anti-immigration views are not the views of ‘the people’, especially in Sweden. The Sweden Democrats are by far the least favoured party. Another thing: if all political parties start focusing on migration as a main issue, parties for which migration is the prime focus will start to do well. The Swedish Social Democrats (and social democratic parties all over Europe for that matter) are attempting to regain ‘old’ voters who defected to the Sweden Democrats, but that is a completely useless tactic, because people with anti-immigration views would rather go for ‘the real deal’ than other parties copying anti-immigration views. The tactic also drives away people who hold progressive views, thus SocDem parties start to lose votes. The idea that SocDem parties (or any other mainstream parties) should talk about immigration more and be tougher on it because that is the ‘will of the people’ is bogus.