• Frequently Asked Questions v2 - Gloves are off
    187 replies, posted
If the forums exist they need to be agile and evolving. I can’t be the chokepoint there, so there needs to be a way to let the developers in the community improve it themselves. Garry's pretty smart. I generally keep asking for stuff like this. APIs (which are only half implemented) really allow the community to continue to extend the capabilities of the forum.. I'd hate to have to move entirely onto a another system. You can look on github everyone's recent projects https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/1755/0ecb8326-a2da-4115-b2ea-90539296bef6/image.png And it's just like. The current iteration of the forum is excellent in one sense. And there's two major flaws; A) We don't have about half the features we had from VB and B) Volatile design choices regarding how content is sorted within the site. And we've asked for garry to open this forum suite up just a little, but from what we're told it's not as easy to do this. And if I were to ask anything, is to look into a solution where this can become possible, because from what I can gather, the entire website feels like one huge project. Like the forums go down when the main site gets updated. So there's probably a solution here were they could most likely be separated just a little bit. But we'd have to know how you could make public more of the actual forum side, without exposing the frameworks or implementations that actually make the connections to the account system. And from that, I just know there's a lot of effort. But this iteration is great, even if early. You've made it with a focus on your core audience, one that's been around for over ten years. To make another radical design change again and again, when we have something that works? The fact that I'm here every day for at least five years is testament enough to how successful this platform remains over time
I demand union rights
so @Unclejimmema , where exactly was that definitive proof? seems like hezzy couldn't find it
There's no shortage of people willing to step up and help guide this website to greener pastures. However, spreading power and influence around seems to be contrary to the agenda right now.
Or they and Garry could you know, address the issues making the community crumble?
Hezzy's let me discuss the methods here for the sake of explanation. As far as information goes we happened to have to exact matching IP's along with coinciding posts within an IP range that coincided with posts between the two accounts within the same time frame. After chatting with the mod team and looking over the evidence, it was discovered that the matching IP's were from mobiles. Generally that is still solid information, however it would appear that either through incredible coincidence or intentional actions it was incorrect. I make mistakes, and I'll admit that. Grenadiac has been unbanned.
Thanks for looking deeper into it, I was worried everybody involved would just dig their heels
this just in dont use cricket wireless or you'll get fuckin mowed
Everyone makes mistakes, and its ok to admit wrongdoing in something, rather than double down. I hope this is at least some proof for everyone that the staff still cares about the Facepunch community.
This would be ideal, but its been clearly demonstrated they are incapable of properly doing so. Scandal follows in their footsteps.
since he called it exactly when does he get unbanned
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/107090/eab1a6b1-c14d-4955-8e87-168574978e88/Untitled-design-(1).jpg
Hezzy, this idea of trying to fix our problems by being positive would work a lot better if you were selling it as all we can do, but instead it feels as if you've shoved responsibility over the site on our laps, and that whatever happens to FP is the fault of the community. People do not want to spend Facepunch's last months blaming themselves for its death. It's not even about whether being positive is an actual fix (I do not think it is), it could be, let's say you're correct and the change in optics is enough to sway garry. I don't know communicate with him, I don't know him nearly as well as you do. This is still not an optimal way of enticing users to participate.
this will probably get buried in a sea of posts but hey why not it's probably off topic too, sorry what does facepunch mean to me? tl;dr quite a fucking lot to start this off: i haven't a single clue how to phrase any of this so it's gonna come out of pure improv, but these are my honest thoughts. in a short and simple way, i regarded facepunch as my primary online community, sure i frequent like 1 or 2 other forums but i dont try to integrate with them as i did here at FP i barely even consider myself a member of their communities. back in 2011 when i stumbled upon facepunch looking for ways to fix my glaring fuckups in gmod i didnt think much of it at all, just here for info i didnt think i'd get invested, didn't think i'd stay, didn't even think i'd register here at all well, in a bit of boredom that coensided with a rather shitty part of my life at the time i got curious and i wanted to see what exactly is here beyond gmod content i lurked around a bit, registerred, and then continued to lurk with the freedom to poke at all the subforums since 2012 i have routinely come to FP damn near every day just to see what the hell's going on, even if it's in a subforum i dont even really care for. the moment i decided to get involved with the community of FP there were quite a few things i really appreciated about it first, the layout. i still remember fp pre reshuffle of 2015 and what not and i loved, and still love that layout, if it were possible and i could take off my rose tinted glasses, i'd have that back. it was infinitely more functional than any other i had been on, and it allowed me to introduce myself to a few communities that im still with. the mods. i liked being able to go anywhere on the forum and see the mods partake in the community as much as the next guy, made me feel as if the community was a lot closer furthermore, the mod team did a great job keeping the garbage out, if it were any other forum's politics subforum, it'd be full of shitposts and illegitimate crap. seeing less and less mod activity overall has honestly made me feel less optimistic about this forum's future, and it's also made me feel as if we're slipping away as a community. i understand that people move on though. the mods also posted a lot of funny shit that i honestly wish had been properly archived. sgt doom, even though he's not a mod anymore, had the best fucking mod campaign ive ever seen. el dorito incident, postal refusing a banme, etc. the community itself yknow what it's like to finally find a forum with people that have the same interests? it's even better when the forum isn't just that, but also caters to other interests. even better is when the community is up for an actual discussion that isnt totally anonymous and is actively regulated so it doesnt fill up with shitposters and garbage it was great to know that, on the off chance that i do post, i wouldn't get bombarded with a shitload of anon posts that are faceless and mean nothing to me, or are just garbage posts. i may have lurked for quite a long time and posted rarely, but i found that even then i could get along with everyone and have a legit discussion if i felt like posting even in my inability to really fit in with most things i still associated with this community more than anything i even bought an fpair patch despite being relatively new to posting in fpair's discussions. hearing this forum might be closing kinda hurt, honestly, and to at least keep in touch i joined the FP discord im sure i could find this elsewhere, but i dont think i'd find a forum as broad as FP that has that experience. i also dont want to force myself to restart with a new community. so basically to see FP in this condition, in all of my 6 years here, it's kinda scary, really. to see all this shit happening between the general decline of FP and the disconnect between the community and the mod team it genuinely makes me worry, the uncertainty of it all isn't a good feeling. im not really sure what else i can or need to say, but mind you, i absolutely wish i did. there's a shitload on my mind about this entire situation that i cannot put into words, but i wish i could so, in my final awkward words of this post dont kill FP, i understand im only one person in this community, but at least consider what i've got to say im sure others will agree, but i dont speak for them.
me too
I'll throw my hat into the ring here despite being a long-time lurker who often doesn't have much to say when this kind of drama unfurls. I am one of the many people that were upset when the videos subforum was moved into GD as that was a place I discovered many interesting videos from content creators I would have never seen otherwise. The reason for its removal was completely asinine, and there was no sugar-coating that it was done purely out of spite for criticizing how Garry made child subforums and wanted to do away with megathreads. The resulting discussion of whether or not Facepunch would stay left me rather sad to imagine what I'd do without, but as I read through this thread I grow only more apathetic to that possibility. I have to wonder just who the hell Garry works on this forum for. To be so utterly delusional that you would make these changes that actually hinder the ease of use for the forum and such objectively bad choices, only to get sick burns on those people who said mean words to you boggles my mind. It's always a constant battle between him and this userbase on what would be best for them, and he then forces these changes with zero communication and insist in his warped mind that they are for the best when he doesn't even use these forums! Perhaps the people that spend every day on the forums have valuable critiques and input over him who maybe visits them once a month? And it seems the pattern of his visits are just to cherry-pick a post to suit the 'community is only filled with shitposting manchildren' narrative before doing a drive-by zinger and disappearing again. Then I got to reading his own posts, his blog about what Facepunch does for him and what he would gain from keeping it up. Such incredibly self-centered, egotistical goals meant to only serve a pedigree or portfolio rather than a community of people who actively enjoy him and his work. And that got me to thinking: this forum can die for all I care now, as I refuse to be a part of this nonsensical battle between him and his ego. This thread was started with the express message to "be positive" (read: blindly accept these garbage changes just to make you feel better about yourself) but all that followed were people voicing their opinions and concerns and getting banned for it. There's no changing his or anyone's mind, and even if we get over this rough patch my respect for the people that run this community have diminishes severely. So go ahead and shut it down, there's no salvaging it.
This is a shitshow
Alright, Unclejimmema, this is exactly what we are talking about. Dmaster wasn't even rude, crass, or confrontational. It wasn't even a banme. Can you not see this is what people are getting upset about?
"So go ahead and shut it down, there's no salvaging it." Did you miss that part? i mean sure its not a "ban me" but it sure as hell isnt helping
this is getting really out of hand, folks.
Looks more like a "doesn't want to be here" ban to me
Can you not see that's the kind of rhetoric you shouldn't be posting about? It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, it doesn't matter if it's candid or not. If you're just going to attack the owner of this forum tactfully or otherwise what do you think is going to happen? What thread do you think he looks at when he does come here? If you've already thrown in the towel then why even bother making a post? Whatever he did is done and over, whatever he's going to do he will do with or without your input. This is a fact that we all have to deal with. It is in all of our best interests to let him try what he's going to try, and we can all ride it out together as a community. If that's not enough for you than I guess you can go post whatever you want.
I expressed similar sentiment, but I would like to hopefully see things through to better pastures. Not that I expect that to happen at this rate, but I will be here until the end one way or another. I'm not sure how you can really justify banning a user because they point out the failings of the forum civilly. Its exactly one of the reasons that gets everyone in a frenzy, which just perpetuates bad moderating behavior. If they think its exhausting, how do they think the rest of us feel seeing the forum go down the drain and users get banned left and right?
This is what is going to close the forums down. We're doing what we can, but if you're just going to pour gas on the fire I can see you clearly don't want to be here. Dmaster's post isn't going to close the forums down. Garry has threatened to close the forums. You are not doing what you can. The community has calmly and not-so-calmly explained many, many times what you guys could be doing to improve the situation, but you guys insist on policies which worsen the situation. At some point it becomes difficult to discern whether it's because you don't understand or if it's because you don't care. "Pouring gas on the fire" = accurately assessing the current state of affairs here. You are telling the forum to lie to you or else be banned. What are you even trying to accomplish? Sure, Dmaster said in his post that he doesn't want to be a part of a community that's being mismanaged this hard, but the rhetoric from the OP and throughout this thread just seems to be a 4th quarter push to shift the blame for the site's decline onto the userbase when it was clearly top-level decisions which really shot this site in the foot. We didn't want this to happen. We tried for years to prevent this from happening, and you guys completely blew us off, cursed us out and banned us, and continue to do so. In a private Discord I'm in, users are starting to place bets on when this site is going to be shut down, rather than "if," and the prevailing bet is within the next two months, if not this week. Ya blew it.
When you're asking the owner of the forum to burn it down I think it's pretty clear you don't care about the forums anymore.
I think posting a decently thought out outline of his stance displays some level of care for the forum, after all, including how long he has been here and posted. If he didn't care, why would he post on the matter? Everyone here cares about the forum, or at this point in time, used to, since its clear faith is clearly failing. Regardless, making that kind of talk bannable is just... pointless. As k0mori said, "you are telling the forum to lie to you or else be banned." That is certainly not the way to fix things.
@garry My reasons are probably obvious. I’m not sure small forums are still needed. I’m not sure whether something like reddit makes them redundant for things like discussing a specific subject, and things like discord make them redundant for things like idle chatting. Maybe not right now, but is that the way things are going? In 5 years, in 10 years? Do I get anything from maintaining them? Personally you get a community that believes in not just your games but YOU. People here feel a connection towards you, because you created a great game and community that's brought around a decade of joy. Think about it, the folks here have been here for so long, there's so much history that we've been through. Reddit or twitter users can't even remotely compare to the relationship between the forum and you. The community has been here from your first lambo to your seventh, why would you want to throw that away? Does the company? Firstly advertisement, I don't know the exact amount of active users, but right now there's about 3000 users online. Now let's say you release a game, you're pretty much guaranteed to at least get half that amount in sales. It might seem like a small amount, but having a solid starting player base is pretty important nowadays since people will instantly pass off a "dead game" as being shit. Don't wanna pull a lawbreakers huh? Second talent, I'm sure you've hired folks from the programming section before, but you should really consider how valuable it is. You have people posting their own projects, you can actively watch potential employees progress their skills and steal their ideas utilize their talents. Why are we paying to run and maintain a forum that brings us nothing but issues? Because at the end of the day these are your truest fans/guaranteed money. I feel like you really don't understand the advantage in having a decent community not just for rust, but for THE COMPANY. Again let's go back to lawbreakers, if cliffy B had a community like this I reckon lawbreakers would have actually made him more than $5. So please, take the time to listen to the community instead of just using us as a guinea pig to create a reddit killer.
Can y'all just give it like a day and chill I hate to sound like the galaxy brain centrist but right now both sides are going fucking nuclear and it's obvious no civilized conversation or good decisions can be made in this heated state Take a break goddamn, go post in your other favorite threads
Unfortunately, I don't think a break will really help. The underlying issues still exist and will persist until they are solved. I feel like I, and many other users, are making pretty civilized posts to try and get to the root of the issue and solve it. After all, we're not banning people for dissenting.
Shit-talking the owner is not ideal, and if I ran a forum and posted what was posted above I'd be annoyed. But Garry is an adult in a position of responsibility, and his attitude here frustrates me. From the comms from the mod team, as well as Garry's personal blog, it sounds like (I may be totally wrong here) Garry is taking negative comments about the forums as personal attacks, he's not differentiating between the loud minority of shitposters and the vast majority of us who love this place and want it to live on, and he's making the whole issue about himself and his business interests, rather than about the 300,000+ members of this 13-year-old community. Correct me if any of this is incorrect. In order to function as a community, there needs to be freedom to voice opinions and criticism - even if those voices are angry or inflamatory. There needs to be room to ask hard questions. There needs to be proper consultation before huge, sweeping decisions are made by people who have a negligible presence here. We've all been in situations at work where some head-office 1000km away starts trying to make cultural changes to the office, and we know that these changes don't work, because the people ordering the changes don't know how the office functions as a community. Facepunch has always been described as not-a-democracy, and that was fine when nothing changed for 8 years. But when huge changes like this are happening, you can't throw your decision or solution at 300,000 people without gathering any feedback (or only gathering feedback in a roundabout and obscure way like Labpunch) and expect them to applaud it. We've got such a huge history, we've got freakin' mythological figures like Firerain, and events immortalised in a wiki. I've been here since 2007. I grew up here, and I hope to be here for a long time yet. But the current attitude of the mods, and the looming threat that Garry is going to shut it down on his own whim is pretty scary. This, and the events since this all kicked off, have also changed my perception of this place. It used to be that Garry would pop in with a zinger now and then, and the mods were a little too eager to ban people for trivial things like posting in the wrong place, but it still felt like home. But now with mods banning people for venting their valid frustrations, and any criticism of the big man being silenced, it feels pretty dang sucky. I'm not looking to be banned - please don't ban me! I've been here for 11 years, I genuinely love Facepunch, and the above is all things I'm saying because I want to help. I think these are important thoughts for the folks in charge to consider. There does come a point where enough faith is lost in the leadership that people just stop coming back. At that point the community basically dies away by choice, not because they've drifted away naturally, but because they don't like being here - and sometimes I fear that we're heading in this direction.
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