How about we stop pushing the narrative that "Garry doesn't care" equates to you not being able to continue using this forum the same way it's been used for years. Nothing has changed, you can still make posts, you can still interact with the community regardless of Garry's opinions. This whole thing started when Garry implied keeping the forums up is questionable cost-wise. It wasn't a sealed-deal and it wasn't a declaration of any sort. Some people panicked and decided to take it upon themselves to "exodus" the community to some off-shoot of FP and hope it works out.
That's how communities die. There is literally no incentive for new users to come to KO. People still come to FP because it's been around almost as long as SA. You are guaranteed new users by merit of Facepunch being a brand, a game-dev company. No such incentive exists for KO.
The bottom line is that panicking and "preemptively" migrating to a new off-shoot forum makes no sense and is not helping anyone, and only serves to create confusion and division.
I don't think it's that (most) people are in denial that FP is dying, but rather because it's still up and it's what the community are used to using. KO's work put up so far has been great, it progressed a lot faster than Newpunch's development and completed features that only took a week that took Newpunch a month and I have to give kudos to the effort and work put into it. However, just for the sole reason FP is still up makes it still a huge draw for people to stay because of the simple reason that it's the place where people are most familiar and active.
If I had to compare the situation to something, it's kind of like when a lot of people are living in the same shoddy apartment with barely working plumbing stayed for years, and a hot new shiny complex just opened next door, with everything your current apartment has and even more, with extras like a bidet and a soda machine. But since the current apartment, as crappy as it is, with the landlord not really interested in improving things anytime soon, is still technically up and functional, and it's not being scheduled for demolishing yet, people aren't going to go through the effort of moving their furniture and stuff because the place is still there and works for the most part, despite being objectively inferior.
Convenience, sentimentality and familiarity more or less is still the draw I believe most people are still more active here. Facepunch itself never really had a perfectly functional state, it had flaws during its inception in late 2004, its original overhaul in 2008, and the current Newpunch overhaul around last year(?). So people are just used to the bullshit and flaws because everyone else are, kind of like a community forged through fire and piss.
Once FP really does kick the bucket, I'm more than excited to use KO more actively, but at its current state, it does force me to switch between the two forums, with FP still being the most active due to aforementioned reasons.
I really really liked the idea of the forums eventually becoming both an API maintained by FP and an open-source frontend published on github that people could contribute to, like it was suggested in garry's last post. I wonder if that's still in the "maybe" pile, it sure would mean less exodus, and I'm sure a lot of people would contribute!
IMO question and this is my own curiosity.
What would you rather have. FP with Garry and have literally 0 improvement 0 engagement and be continuously chasing our tails like we have for almost a year.
KOC with 4 devs, infinite amount of time, engagement and a fresh start.
Also never mind the blank code box. Can't rid of it
But we currently have both.
option 3 whats in the box?
Hence why I'm asking would you rather have one or the other
It's important to be proactive about this. Doing it later could very well be too late.
I have experienced a forum going poof before, and in that case there was no alternative.
The community I was part of got fractured that instant.
We, however, now have the incedible luxury of having a well made alternative for when Facepunch does eventually go down.
Inacio & crew of course want people to move over and use the forum software they spent so much time on - but nobody will force you to move over now.
What matters is that you know where you might find the community when FP disappears one day.
Meanwhile Knockout will continue improving until it's the best forum software on this god damn planet.
Isn't that the point of it though?
It's just meant to be replacement to FP if this place ever goes down or become unusable for whatever reason. It's not meant to serve as a complete replacement yet.
Basically, do you want a bunker to assure the continuance of Facepunch or not. I for one am thankful for the KO devs, and if FP goes down I intend to make KO my forum. If FP could stay up forever I don't see any reason I'd ever stop visiting and posting other than simply being too busy. I've been here over a decade, and would frankly feel like I'm missing something if I suddenly were to not have this community. If it happens to go down, KO would hopefully be the next best thing.
My issue with knockout is that the group of users pushing it seem to be doing it out of spite for FP and not out of a genuine interest in preserving its community? Like it's not "in case FP dies" it's like they're looking forward to it happening and are willing to accelerate the process if need be. Like what else am I supposed to think when every rules thread gets unsticked and replaced with a thread that says "FP IS DEAD COME TO KNOCKOUT" because the forum went down for 3 hours? The attitude around it hasn't changed or matured at all since it became obvious that FP isn't just going to get randomly shut down without warning. The whole thing feels really cheap and opportunistic and like it can't function if people don't buy the doomsday narrative.
I don't feel that's true though. If it goes down and Garry just decides 'fuck it, I'm not fixing it this time' then, yeah, it would get 'randomly shut down without warning'.
The point is entirely moot because
It's not like anyone is going to miss a 301 redirect.
The only thing trying to get people to move over at this point in time serves is to fracture what remains. Facepunch is the main attraction still. Knockout will get its time in the spotlight soon enough.
Assuming Garry actually gets around to doing it in any manner that's prompt.
toddposting is old meme
todd forums is NOW
I actually don't mind moving to KO since I made a sick avatar there. I kinda changed my mind in that if overnight we had to use KO I would be fine with it but as it stands now most of the activity is still on FP so I can't make content for KO unless I just want literally nobody to see it or participate in it. So yeah I'm 100% on board with KO but it has too little activity to justify me using it over FP atm.
More cooks, bigger mess?
A lot of things happened pretty fast before we'd sat down and planned how exactly to go about it.
We didn't all necessarily agree with the way things were initially handled, but you can rest assured that no decision has been made out of spite.
Hezzy initially pushed hard for the move, and made some pretty extreme decisions. He probably has the most long-standing love for preserving the community, and maybe didn't realize that not everyone would see his actions the way he saw them.
The first day of the big Knockout push was filled with rash decisions and a ton of internal discussion, trying to establish and agree on how our position on this should really be.
The community didn't like some of the decisions, so we reverted them. But for some, the damage was already done.
I'm not going to try to convince those who were disillusioned to join KOC, that's entirely up to them. But be aware that we discussed all criticism thrown our way, and done what we could to improve.
Any further criticism is also welcome.
there's only one person i saw with the "let's move, everyone, that's it, let's pack it up" attitude, and it was hezzy (don't worry paul simon, i had this post written earlier, i didn't take yours as the 'go sign' to blame him). it was also hezzy's decision to lock the discord afaik, which was weird, considering that the fact garry would have megathreads and sections closed on a whim is literally one of, if not the, most important reasons for moving to knockout in the first place.
everyone else involved with it has been pretty chill, from what i've seen
facepunch isnt dying until i say so guys
please wait until i inform everyone
thank you for your compliance
Since FP is dying, can I become admin of this forum? I'll spice it up.
sent
You said it so well. I think the progress being made on Knockout is amazing, and it's shaping up to be a super nice forum. But the way it's handled is very abrubt and leaves me lost. Even in the FP Discord lots of channels (i think) have been removed for no reason at all in my eyes.
Yeah garry removed all the extra channels and made rust/gmod specific discords for some reason.
I completely agree with the push and it does seem opportunistic. I have never liked the mods acting in a coordinated way in FP either to mess with people or do things because it creates so much confusion so I cannot say I agree with the whole WHAT IS HAPPENING sticky threads and the weird mod name changes etc... etc.. . To be perfectly honest I am very happy knockout is being developed and I have made an account there but I cannot see myself using it as much as I used FP (and even that is quite limited) since I am no longer the 15 year old gmod enthusiast I once was.
But to me the SH thread on the GameAnalytics stuff was the clincher about what is going on and where the forums and FP Studios are headed. I had always thought garry had a vision for things he does and is not afraid to just go for it, whether it is game decisions, forum decisions, redesigns etc... and while I might have been angry or disappointed with changes over the years it was always a case of 'oh I am sure there is a bigger picture here that I can't see'. But these forums had all their potential wasted, all that work for nothing. And I refuse to believe it is only because garry got fed up by our ungrateful criticisms and decided to abandon the forums, he has never been someone to shy away from constant criticism and shitposting. I think he stopped caring. And come on, why shouldn't he? He is a rich business man, he is running a studio developing games, he has a life outside FP, he has a partner, he has kids, he has responsibilities towards his family. We like to think of ourselves as what made garry and FP what it is and I am sure technically it is true as we all helped put gmod on the map, but our prime is long gone. Rust etc... doesn't need a full forum system that needs attention and moderation. Reddit is perfectly adequate for a lot of things. Why bother with FP? Probably why garry answered shit on reddit regarding game analytics and not here.
What I cannot stand though is the fucking shabbiness of the whole place, it just seems like the shadow of FP I liked. It is very janky, a lot of things don't work or act really weirdly, simple fixes are not implemented at all. And on top of that the few times we are not ignored the fucking employees of FP Studios decide to come down to the forums and tell people off by saying 'I don't have to explain shit' as if they had explained shit to begin with. The silence was damning but actively swearing at your base is just fucked up. And I know the person had a history of posting in a certain way and reacting in a certain way, but doesn't change the fact that we are being patronised by a bunch of people who have fuck all right to be patronising after the shitshow they are running.
Anyway long story short I think you are definitely right about your gripes about knockout and I agree with a lot of it. I am very sorry to say I don't think the community feeling will be achieved easily on knockout no matter how much you push people to migrate because it is not an organic process. But that being said I cannot stand the being patronised by people who have no right being patronising to me and yes I am not paying for these forums, last time garry got any of my money was the about 15 minutes after gmod10 was released but doesn't mean we need to take shit like this.
In any normal circumstance I would agree completely. However, the situation as it currently stands is that Garry has proclaimed that the forum may die at any moment, and based on his erratic decisions in the past the community is left with no surefire way of knowing if the forums have a way of staying or if they will simply will be shut down without warning further down the road. The fact that someone developed at forum without any surefire way of knowing if it would be profitable is no real proof of someone doing it to be "opportunistic."
And so the debate as to whether Facepunch was dying was becoming heated to such an intense degree that three thousand more users registered just to argue whether it was dying or not.
Facepunch is dying
Democracy is dying
Earth is dying
Hope is dying
The cactus on the windowsill of my home appears to be doing pretty well though.
Poster below is gay
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
Forum Discussion VII: We had a good run
