10 days passed between me laying out the initial plan and it actually happening. Everybody had plenty of opportunity to raise their concerns, discuss things and put opinions forward. A day before the Discord was locked, I asked everyone to let me know if they weren't 100% on board.
Granted, the timescale was brought up by a few days to take advantage of the Azure outage, but the plan was enacted as discussed ten days previously.
Every opportunity was given to the moderator team to add their opinion. We need to recognise that we are collectively responsible for what happened and stop trying to throw each other under the bus or trying to plead ignorance or innocence. We all made a mistake.
if you were going to perform a coup and get everyone to your new site
wouldn't it make sense to have it actually be feature complete?
And if they chose to reinstate a mod whose actions were found unacceptable by the community, then whats so say they wont protect non-mods that they are biased towards? or their decision to ban someone because one or more of the mods, and their small group of friends dislike? watching every post for the smallest possible infraction they can use as a reason?
Has Inacio outright said "Yeah, probably shutting this down unless you give me good reason not to?" to his community? If not, then it's still in a better position than Facepunch is.
What a coincidence that this coup was concurrent with an outage of the forums, one must admire this foresight to predict that opportunity.
only if you're a very patient person, you'd lure more devs if you made a sudden switch
without any sort of karma system before actually being a mod it just ends up being a popularity contest anyway
hell i don't even know who i voted for the last superuser moderator election, they just had the most points and valid flags
that's a bar so low it's underground is that really that bar we're using for this shit
Flak said the forums would die due to stagnation and change is needed, and I have said what should be changed, change the way mods are elected, let the community choose them, and let the community strip them when their actions and behavior is unacceptable. If the current mods are not willing to make this change now, on the facepunch forums themselves, then as I said, I do not believe it will happen in KO, and It does not inspire confidence and trust, that decisions would be handled fairly on KO, and even now I do not have confidence in decisions that they would make between themselves on the Facepunch Forums.
given the incompetence and constant bickering of the knockout staff (in this here very thread no less!), it seems like having a feature-complete forum is the top of the priority list
I mean...yeah? I don't know how to explain this, but if A is on the precipice of being shut down and B is going but has a shithead leader, one is clearly doing a bit better than the other.
The recent events and discussions have honestly completed my experience and opinions and I have resigned from KO and will not be moderating it. I will join it but my loyalty remains here until it dies.
Garry.
Don't shut it down. Work on it.
Call me a liar but I won't defend Inacio anymore.
Popularity contests are unavoidable in any aspect that involves voting, but I firmly believe that it would have no effect on who is modded or demodded as long as the community, everyone that is active on the forums votes, the decision of everyone would outweigh the decision of the groups that vote to the individuals they are biased towards becoming mod.
this is a very respectable choice. i appreciate your position and would like to personally thank you for taking a stance. <3
frankly, no they wouldn't.
https://i.imgur.com/EE8IzJx.png
not even 40% of active SO users even visited the election page, and about 12% of people actually voted.
the fact of the matter is that internet democracy doesn't really work, there's no real world benefit or downside from voting or not voting, so people don't give a shit
In December 2018, I invited most of the moderators (I say most, some are in our chat but are inactive) to a secret Discord server so we could discuss creating a successor website to Facepunch, given the inevitable closure that was hanging over the website.
After some discussion, it was decided to choose Inacio's custom made software over a ready built solution such as Xenforo.
Knockout as a website progressed very well. We all had very long discussions on how we would announce the site, how we would transfer the community over, etc. We felt under pressure because garry had told everyone he would decide what to do with the forums in "early 2019". This gave us roughly the first quarter of 2019 to get a workable site out.
Inacio, Northern and the others worked incredibly hard on Knockout. It's a brilliantly made website. They should be proud of how it has turned out so far, and where it is going.
In January and February we began to discuss the migration plans in earnest. We considered waiting for the announcement, we considered pre-empting the announcement. We decided to take action because as the months rolled on, there was no forthcoming announcement. We were getting closer to the end of the quarter and the outlook wasn't great. We didn't know what would happen, would the website would just suddenly disappear? We decided in order to best preserve the community, we had to encourage them to move over to Knockout.
We were going to do this in a few stages;
I would close off the FP discord community section (ensuring that it could still be used for FP game discussion, so as not to affect FP's business) so we could get people to move over to our own Discord server.
We would put up stickies in each community subforum, detailing what was going on and what the next steps would be.
We would stop moderating the community subforums, to ensure that the community would move over to Knockout.
Garry had no knowledge that we were going to do this. Everything we did was designed so that he could easily revert it should he want to.
The plan was enacted slightly earlier, spurred on by the Azure outage. In essence it moved the timescale up by a matter of days. I take responsibility for that. Unfortunately the forums were still down by the time I had to go to sleep, so I couldn't post the threads in the forums to explain what was going on. Paul Simon did a much better job of this than I could have.
That's pretty much how Knockout came to be.
If this site is going to be maintained and not shut down, I hope one of the first big changes will be fixing all the broken threads in search. So many years of content became completely inaccessible with the move to newpunch.
I don't know what any of the drama is about, all I know is, one of the reasons - hell, the primary reason - why people wanted a place to move to was because they saw garry removing places for discussion on a whim, without notice or care for how the community felt about it. They figured that might happen to FP as a whole. And they didn't like being dragged around from one, perfectly usable forum into a worse version of it while being told "please, use the forum this way". And so it put a really, really sour taste in my mouth to see Hezzy closing the discord, then going "me and the mod team are all moving to Knockout NOW!!! this is your forum now, please come". Words can't describe how terrible and ironic that decision was
this is called a coup
Is it ever okay to tell someone to kill themselves
Having the community veto mods is a terrible idea. The community exaggerates issues and is constantly kneejerking. If you did this, there'd be so many hirings and firings that you wouldn't be able to keep up with them all.
You need to pick somebody to lead the team. A trusted user that you feel can make the right choices.
as someone who is a knockout supporter (i don't actively use it much currently, but i think that's also due to a shift in how i consume content online in general), i definitely do see that argument, but when you look at from the perspective of the side of people trying to get the userbase to migrate, i can see why it was done that way
if you don't make it obvious, you end up with this situation where people who didn't know about it are completely unaware of the entire situation and then they could just be abandoned on a forum that garry then shuts down
i really don't think there was a way to even bring the idea of knockout up without causing a pain point somewhere
I'm for community mod elections.
I don't believe that wanting to be a part of both sites while they're both up is a conflict of interest. I think Inacio digging himself into a deeper hole is fucking ridiculous though.
As for Hezzy saying I agreed to locking everything down? No. I absolutely did not. I agreed to locking the Discord to NEW members and allowing existing members to use it as normal until the transfer to Garry was done.
I also did not agree to the removal of stickied threads. I agreed to the idea that we would put a stickied thread in addition to the rules stating that Knockout was the backup solution to Facepunch for if/when it died.
It just seems like a lot of issues are coming down to miscommunication and bad people skills at this point.
Sorry I don't know what forum "SO" is, so I can't say anything about them or their decisions.
But Facepunch users are far more invested with the forums and the community that is a part of it from my own personal experience with the people here over the years. We're also a lot smaller? I wont deny that we do have a fair share of inactive users, but the majority that are active care about the state of the forums. Should their voices and concerns be disregarded because only 12% of them actually voted? And do you really believe with how the moderators have recently been acting that the very same people would not be extremely biased when it comes to decisions between them and the community, the forums themselves? That because they are moderators they somehow are better than the people who aren't? This isn't just about making someone a mod or stripping them of their status due to unacceptable actions, it's also to add transparency, the community can see the decisions that are being made to who should be in power, and who shouldn't be, it doesn't take far to see the biases, the community found Sosig's actions unacceptable, Hezzy stripped him of his rank, and then allowed the moderators, between themselves to vote if he should be reinstated, and everyone except Hezzy and one other person chose to vote him in, disregarding the fact that the community found that mod's actions unacceptable.
some of these so-called moderators tend to make the right choices pretty rarely and strangely seem to often squeeze their way out of trouble
This thread certainly exploded and aired all the dirty laundry.
I don't really know what to say or now to take this all in, I just don't want the communities to die and have somewhere we can all go if one goes poof.
stackoverflow my dude
we really should have used that community fund on a PR team tbh
It just seems like a lot of issues are coming down to miscommunication and bad people skills at this point.
More like the owner behaves like a manchild, who clearly has a few problems, possibly related to anger and short temper. Literally if he took the criticism well and coded what people actually want, a lot of this shit wouldn't have happened, alongside KO.
Should have paid some cheap developers from overseas to fix the site instead. At least the job would be done quicker.
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Knockout
