Is it okay to care about animals more than humans? - General

[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;43611192]never said being a furry is wrong.[/QUOTE] Never assumed you said that. :) Edit: Well, it sounds like I did. Damn my mobile. Can't write so detailed atm. ^=^ But this discussion is really hard. Myself also prefer to support the animals. But this depends on the relationship anyway.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;43611154]It isn't insane. Humans are more developed; they can understand emotions and have self determination and sentience, something dogs do not. So far, we haven't proven that animals have the same level of consciousness as we do, but we have proven that many lack the emotional stimulation that we do. Until we do have evidence to suggest that animals, such as dogs, can think and self question, a human "suffers" more a situation (like drowning) than a dog does. It's a touchy subject, mostly because we don't know just how consciously animals are of themselves and their surroundings, but generally speaking, we know humans understand empathy and have the complex mental conditions that allow for critical thinking. It's not that we're smarter, it's that we feel a greater variety of emotions that are more complicated and diverse than any animal; generally, the less advanced you get on the evolutionary level, the greater the belief that the creature lacks sentience. I mean, we know that insects act completely on instinct, we just don't know how that applies to other animals. Not if the son and dog were both in a burning house and he could only save one. Plus you know, gotta divide those finances somehow; might as well spend the extra money on premium dog food and just get the baby some cheap ass crap. See how this cycle goes?[/QUOTE] But not all humans do understand emotion. And they are not all capable of living normal lives.

[QUOTE=Wyvyrias;43611256]Never assumed you said that. :) Edit: Well, it sounds like I did. Damn my mobile. Can't write so detailed atm. ^=^ But this discussion is really hard. Myself also prefer to support the animals. But this depends on the realationship anyway.[/QUOTE] its like all the stereotypes rolled into one crazy ball of lunacy

[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;43611253]I've always thought it was stupid to jump at a starving, dying dog before you would a starving, dying kid. But maybe I might be a little bias, I'm not a pet person in the slightest.[/QUOTE] But some children will never contribute to society in a normal way. And people have to look after tham anyway.

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611411]But not all humans do understand emotion. And they are not all capable of living normal lives.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611434]But some children will never contribute to society in a normal way. And people have to look after tham anyway.[/QUOTE] You do not know whether or not your son (assuming you are referencing him) can understand emotions. Regardless of whether he can live his life normally, you have a responsibility to care for him and love him, as his mother. A transgender individual isn't going to live a "normal" life, (and I mean this in that it's still socially taboo and difficult to cope in social situations) and neither is a schizophrenic person or an individual with autism or a missing limb. This doesn't negate the value of their lives. Normalcy is an asinine and silly concept people use to label experiences of the average, but truthfully, very few of these "normal lives" actually exist, and it's stupid to compare oneself to some notion of "normalcy." You believe that if someone lives a life that does not fall under your concept of "normalcy" that it lacks in value? What is with your fascination with this belief in being "like everyone else?" A concept that, for all intents and purposes, doesn't actually exist?

[QUOTE=Loriborn;43611420]its like all the stereotypes rolled into one crazy ball of lunacy[/QUOTE] Welcome to the internet. :) But it sounds so negative when you say it. hehe

[QUOTE=Loriborn;43611458]You do not know whether or not your son (assuming you are referencing him) can understand emotions. Regardless of whether he can live his life normally, you have a responsibility to care for him and love him, as his father. A transgender individual isn't going to live a "normal" life, (and I mean this in that it's still socially taboo and difficult to cope in social situations) and neither is a schizophrenic person or an individual with autism or a missing limb. This doesn't negate the value of their lives. Normalcy is an asinine and silly concept people use to label experiences of the average, but truthfully, very few of these "normal lives" actually exist, and it's stupid to compare oneself to some notion of "normalcy."[/QUOTE] I'm a mother, not a father. And transgender people can look after themselves at least.

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611498]I'm a mother, not a father. And transgender people can look after themselves at least.[/QUOTE] How old is your son? Unless he's older than 20~, you have no place to claim whether he can or cannot look after himself. You also haven't give us any clue as to what kind of mental condition he has, because your assumption that he cannot live a normal life is moot if his condition is one that does not prevent basic motor interaction.

[QUOTE=Wyvyrias;43611256]Never assumed you said that. :) Edit: Well, it sounds like I did. Damn my mobile. Can't write so detailed atm. ^=^ But this discussion is really hard. Myself also prefer to support the animals. But this depends on the relationship anyway.[/QUOTE] I was really really hoping you were just going to leave it at "Never assumed you said that. :)"

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611434]But some children will never contribute to society in a normal way. And people have to look after tham anyway.[/QUOTE] I know right I can't wait until my dog grows up to become a scientist

[QUOTE=Bridger;43611554]I was really really hoping you were just going to leave it at "Never assumed you said that. :)"[/QUOTE] ._. least I managed to escape the Rust forums today. :> Back to lurking.

[QUOTE=Wyvyrias;43611612]._. least I managed to escape the Rust forums today. :> Back to lurking.[/QUOTE] the stereotype is further solidified

[QUOTE=GURREN LAGANN;43611582]I know right I can't wait until my dog grows up to become a scientist[/QUOTE] Mine is a Formula 1 driver so proud

[QUOTE=Loriborn;43611542]How old is your son? Unless he's older than 20~, you have no place to claim whether he can or cannot look after himself. You also haven't give us any clue as to what kind of mental condition he has, because your assumption that he cannot live a normal life is moot if his condition is one that does not prevent basic motor interaction.[/QUOTE] My son is 23. He's got Down Syndrome. He also has diabetes, and isn't capable of living alone. Sometimes he can't even unscrew the top of a bottle because his and are too weak and he has no real grip. He will always need to be looked after. Also, it's not just dogs that people value, but also cats. I've had cats before too.

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611434]But some children will never contribute to society in a normal way. And people have to look after tham anyway.[/QUOTE] And what do animals contribute that a child can't? I honestly see pets as a literal waste of money

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611693]My son is 23. He's got Down Syndrome. He also has diabetes, and isn't capable of living alone. Sometimes he can't even unscrew the top of a bottle because his and are too weak and he has no real grip. He will always need to be looked after. Also, it's not just dogs that people value, but also cats. I've had cats before too.[/QUOTE] I don't understand. You like pets, which basically rely on you for their entire life to stay fed, kept, and they cannot live alone. You're life revolves around feeding them, walking them, cleaning up after them, and so on; what's the difference between your son and a dog or a cat in this case, other than that your son actually has emotions and can take care of himself more than an animal. (even if it's just to a minor extent?)

[QUOTE=Wyvyrias;43611256]But this discussion is really hard. Myself also prefer to support the animals. But this depends on the relationship anyway.[/QUOTE] For a second I thought you'd written a haiku.

[QUOTE=Totenkreuz;43611700]And what do animals contribute that a child can't? I honestly see pets as a literal waste of money[/QUOTE] Dogs can be used for a variety of things. Cats keep rats away. They are actually of use. Where as some humans, if they are not functioning properly, will never get a job, never have an independent life, sometimes never even cooperate with you.

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611744]Dogs can be used for a variety of things. Cats keep rats away. They are actually of use. Where as some humans, if they are not functioning properly, will never get a job, never have an independent life, sometimes never even cooperate with you.[/QUOTE] And animals contribute to society in any way? A human can keep mice away just the same as a cat. If this isn't a gimmick, you're 40+, and you came to FP to ask us if it's okay that you don't love your son. That doesn't make sense. If you judge life so harshly on what they can do for society, what have you done for the greater good of life that makes you worth any more than your son? Yes, if someone has a condition like this, their life has no real value other than the inherent value that life may or may not have, but in the grand scheme of things, all of our lives are just as meaningless. Down's Syndrome individuals can often still experience the same emotions we can; hell, many can lead fulfilling lives and hold stable careers. Hell, there are Down's Syndrome individuals out there with higher paying jobs than me. Yes, on average, they don't get to experience as full a life as people without DS do, but that doesn't negate the value of their life; I understand where you're coming from, assuming you're not a gimmick, and I'm sure a life like that, taking care of someone and knowing they'll never go beyond that, must be awful, and frankly, it is an awful life. That being said, animals still don't have the cognitive abilities anywhere near the level of an adult, or even someone with Down's Syndrome, who still experience emotions, just with inhibited mental faculties and understanding.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;43611725]I don't understand. You like pets, which basically rely on you for their entire life to stay fed, kept, and they cannot live alone. You're life revolves around feeding them, walking them, cleaning up after them, and so on; what's the difference between your son and a dog or a cat in this case, other than that your son actually has emotions and can take care of himself more than an animal. (even if it's just to a minor extent?)[/QUOTE] It's much harder looking after a person than an animal. That's why many people are willing to keep pets, yet they don't want children.

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611823]It's much harder looking after a person than an animal. That's why many people are willing to keep pets, yet they don't want children.[/QUOTE] It is harder, and no one who has a child is prepared to raise that child for their entire life; this is why people give up their children to people who can. If someone can't provide the love and care a child needs, it would be for the best; at this point in both of your lives, it seems a bit silly to ask such a question though. Nobody wants to spend their entire life taking care of someone else, an awful life that is to have, and it's pretty common to feel guilty for not loving someone that you're forced to care for, as horrible as that may sound. Honestly, there is no good solution to a problem like this; it's a shitty situation for everyone involved, but purely on a moral level, I feel that if you were not forced to care for your disabled son, you wouldn't prefer animals to humans. That sort of responsibility would make anyone reconsider their beliefs, but I don't think there is anything other than tiredness and desperation talking. That being said, why is a 40+ year old mother of a disabled son posting on facepunch.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;43611853]It is harder, and no one who has a child is prepared to raise that child for their entire life; this is why people give up their children to people who can. If someone can't provide the love and care a child needs, it would be for the best; at this point in both of your lives, it seems a bit silly to ask such a question though. Nobody wants to spend their entire life taking care of someone else, an awful life that is to have, and it's pretty common to feel guilty for not loving someone that you're forced to care for, as horrible as that may sound. Honestly, there is no good solution to a problem like this; it's a shitty situation for everyone involved, but purely on a moral level, I feel that if you were not forced to care for your disabled son, you wouldn't prefer animals to humans. That sort of responsibility would make anyone reconsider their beliefs, but I don't think there is anything other than tiredness and desperation talking. That being said, why is a 40+ year old mother of a disabled son posting on facepunch.[/QUOTE] Because i wanted to hear opinions. I've asked people on many different forums i have found at random, because i don't want to be considered a bad person just because i find animals more endearing than people.

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43611896]Because i wanted to hear opinions. I've asked people on many different forums i have found at random, because i don't want to be considered a bad person just because i find animals more endearing than people.[/QUOTE] Why facepunch of all places. Not like we're known for being anything other than a gaming community for rust and gmod and generally just a small collection of people. It just all seems rather fishy that of all the millions of forums out there specifically designed for this exact stuff, that you posted here. Like I said, very suspicious and odd and not very nonsensical, though I don't see why it would be a gimmick considering you haven't really been extreme in any of your opinions. If you're a gimmick, you're a very subtle and pointless one, if you're not, you've come to a very odd place for a question like that.

[QUOTE=Frustration96;43610502]Animals never hurt anyone or do anything bad unless they are provoked or are "trained" to do it (like idiots train pit bulls). I'm sure there are some bad animals out there but in general animals won't do anything unless they need to defend themselves or their families. Humans on the whole are pretty shitty. Of course there are a lot of good humans and I'm not denying that, but even a lot of these good humans when in groups tend to act shittier and don't care about anyone around them. Another problem with humans is their ideals. They are willing to go to the lengths of torture (I have never heard of an animal torturing anything) just because of a silly idea (religion for example). Again, I'm not saying anything like "ALL HUMANS ARE SHITTY AND SHOULD ALL DIE" I'm just saying that if you had to chose to save a dog or a human, the odds are that the dog would do a lot more good in it's life than a human.[/QUOTE] no way. at least with dogs dogs they get super sensitive and mean with age if they're not conditioned and socialized properly and there are also differences that make certain breeds more liable to aggression (not sure about pit bulls but certainly with high-prey drive dogs and primitive breeds) the only reason why animals appear to "do less bad" than people is because they're relatively simple - it's easy to understand and to avoid certain situations which would provoke them to "do bad"

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[QUOTE=Juniez;43611972]no way. at least with dogs dogs they get super sensitive and mean with age if they're not conditioned and socialized properly and there are also differences that make certain breeds more liable to aggression (not sure about pit bulls but certainly with high-prey drive dogs and primitive breeds)[/QUOTE] I think cats must attack other animals more often than dogs, but with dogs it is taken very seriously because they can do more damage. I have had 6 cats and 5 dogs over the years, and every one of my cats have repeatedly killed birds. Where as my dogs have never killed anything or even tried to. The only pure breed dogs i've had was a Border Collie and a Yorkshire Terrier. The rest have been mongrels of some kind. [editline]21st January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=terkiey;43612078]Not here to read further into this or anything I just want to say that yes, it does make sense. This is a principle of many cultures you'll find it amongst the ancient Egyptians to name one culture.[/QUOTE] That should mean that unintelligent people are less important too, since humans have a wide variation of intelligence and understanding.

It's okay to do so, but I don't agree with it. Also this should probably be in Mass Debate.

Guys, you all took the bait of the troll perfectly. This shit isn't even funny

[QUOTE=Razzly Faerie;43612102]I think cats must attack other animals more often than dogs, but with dogs it is taken very seriously because they can do more damage. I have had 6 cats and 5 dogs over the years, and every one of my cats have repeatedly killed birds. Where as my dogs have never killed anything or even tried to. The only pure breed dogs i've had was a Border Collie and a Yorkshire Terrier. The rest have been mongrels of some kind. [editline]21st January 2014[/editline] That should mean that unintelligent people are less important too, since humans have a wide variation of intelligence and understanding.[/QUOTE] What is the point of this debate exactly? If it's purely to justify your personal beliefs, as you even said so yourself, you're just looking for self validation. We can't change your opinion and you can't change ours; there's really nothing to be gained from a discussion like this because the value we place on humans and other animals isn't going to change based on how well someone else values them. You're not a bad person, no such thing as a "bad person," and I believe that it's silly to value an animal more than a human, (though I never said that animal lives don't have value) and that's about all there is to it. As long as you don't abuse or neglect your son, there is really nothing else but to further solidify our beliefs to one another.

but I think that I guess it's ok to empathize with animals but regardless of your feelings it is your responsibility to raise your son to the best of your abilities [editline]20th January 2014[/editline] how does a 40 year old find a forum like this anyways!!!