I think you should drop it. Everybody can give justifications for how and why the story is constructed the way it is, but that won't change the fact that dgg just doesn't like it, so this argument has nowhere to go but in circles.
It can be roughly boiled down to "why does it suck" "here's why it sucks" "but it still sucks even with that in mind". And then you just demand a different product. Asking why it isn't different is pointless other than expressing what the issues are because the only answer is "because it's written that way".
Just seeing Bikini Warrior for next season just makes me wonder.
[QUOTE=Reds;47799850]I think you should drop it. Everybody can give justifications for how and why the story is constructed the way it is, but that won't change the fact that dgg just doesn't like it, so this argument has nowhere to go but in circles.
It can be roughly boiled down to "why does it suck" "here's why it sucks" "but it still sucks even with that in mind". And then you just demand a different product. Asking why it isn't different is pointless other than expressing what the issues are because the only answer is "because it's written that way".[/QUOTE]
I think the weird thing in this discussion is that people are going more on about [I]why[/I] it is like it is, not if it's good or bad that it is that way.
Yes, the visual novel and the route was like that, but so what? That doesn't imply anything positive or negative.
[QUOTE=SuperHoboMan;47799841]
Episode 6 gave us the continuation/"true ending" of Angelic Howl, which was fucking nuts, along with a bunch of other crazy shit, including the characters ACTUALLY CHANGING THEIR CLOTHES :v:[/QUOTE]
Character wardrobe changes are one of my favourite things, but the only shows that ever seem to do it are shows set in modern Japan with people doing nothing particularly interesting, usually with high schoolers because they can just default back to the uniform as the primary outfit.
[QUOTE=dgg;47799804]It is also a very uninteresting and boring route that only serves to say the same thing over and over and over again. It's basically like NGE's constant "all you need is love" message. It's just being hammered in to the viewer over and over and over again. Like, I get it, I understand this character, I understand his struggles, I understand his ideology. I understood that 2 episodes in. Do we seriously need to take the route that puts focus on a guy you can understand right away? There are all these other characters and masters out there, what the fuck is so special about this shit? Why do you feel the need to put all the emphasis on the most boring and simplest character of the cast?[/QUOTE]
Because the Fate route is not about Shirou's ideals anywhere near the scope of UBW. F/sn's world and characters are built up by a combination of Fate and UBW (and Heaven's Feel..... sort of), so stuff that is explained in Fate (the first route) is not explained in UBW (the second), because that'd be pointless.
Most visual novels are like this. A character who is unimportant in one route will not be emphasized, but in a route they are important in, they will. If that route comes before the former, you will already have an understanding of his character and so don't need to be told again.
Shirou is the protagonist of all of the routes, but UBW is the route in which his ideals and his reasons for fighting are the most important. That is why UBW focuses on him [sp]and Archer[/sp] above everyone else, with Rin being the route heroine and Saber retaining importance due to her status as Shirou's [sp](and later Rin's)[/sp] servant.
[QUOTE]And doing that made it all the better.[/QUOTE]
Yeah except that Fate/Zero, as a VN, would be a single route. You cannot compare the way the stories are told because the scope of each is entirely different.
[QUOTE=Taggart;47799862]Because the Fate route is not about Shirou's ideals anywhere near the scope of UBW. F/sn's world and characters are built up by a combination of Fate and UBW (and Heaven's Feel..... sort of), so stuff that is explained in Fate (the first route) is not explained in UBW (the second), because that'd be pointless.
Most visual novels are like this. A character who is unimportant in one route will not be emphasized, but in a route they are important in, they will. If that route comes before the former, you will already have an understanding of his character and so don't need to be told again.
Shirou is the protagonist of all of the routes, but UBW is the route in which his ideals and his reasons for fighting are the most important. That is why UBW focuses on him [sp]and Archer[/sp] above everyone else, with Rin being the route heroine and Saber retaining importance due to her status as Shirou's [sp](and later Rin's)[/sp] servant.
Yeah except that Fate/Zero, as a VN, would be a single route. You cannot compare the way the stories are told because the scope of each is entirely different.[/QUOTE]
This is an anime, not a visual novel. Why do you keep arguing about how the visual novel is constructed?
An adaption needs to adapt to the medium.
If you adapt a movie into a game, you change it so that it makes sense as a game.
[QUOTE=dgg;47799859]I think the weird thing in this discussion is that people are going more on about [I]why[/I] it is like it is, not if it's good or bad that it is that way.
Yes, the visual novel and the route was like that, but so what? That doesn't imply anything positive or negative.[/QUOTE]
Because I have no desire to try and sway your opinions on why you don't like it, feel free to not like it. I just thought your reasoning for disliking it was wrong and misguided. You seemed more annoyed that it wasn't zero then anything else.
dislike shows for what they are, not because they're different to a show written by a totally different person years after the original.
[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;47799879]Because I have no desire to try and sway your opinions on why you don't like it, feel free to not like it. I just thought your reasoning for disliking it was wrong and misguided. You seemed more annoyed that it wasn't zero then anything else.
dislike shows for what they are, not because they're different to a show written by a totally different person years after the original.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand why you think I dislike it for "not being zero" that's not it at all.
I dislike F/Sn because it is the way it is. It lacks a lot of shit that could have made it interesting, things you can find in F/Z, thus the comparison.
F/Z is a natural point of comparision because it's part of the same franchise. I don't understand how you can say that it's wrong and misguided to compare the two. Should I not compare JoJo Stardust Crusaders to JoJo Battle Tendency? Because they are different stories in different time periods? Should I not compare Psycho-Pass S1 and S2 with eachother because a different person wrote the story for the seasons?
Your reasoning seems to be "I don't like it that you compare the two, so please stop :("
Stay Night is trying to be close to the VN though.
You'd have to wildly reconstruct the entire thing to match what you're asking and radically alter the plot while mixing and matching routes, or even just nuke it and rewrite it from the ground up. That's a ridiculous thing to ask for.
[QUOTE=dgg;47799867]This is an anime, not a visual novel. Why do you keep arguing about how the visual novel is constructed?
An adaption needs to adapt to the medium.
[/quote]
Because it's an adaptation of one route. It isn't adapting all of them. This leads to holes, but in the first place one can assume that the adaptation is primarily for, wait for it, VN readers. The only way to remedy this is to a. adapt each route seperately (which is what ufotable is doing, just without the Fate route because of Deen apparently), or b. adapt all of them as one combined series.
Deen's F/sn adapted and mixed them together. And it was fucking awful. Any and every VN adaptation that has ever done this has been fucking awful. So no, let's not do that ever.
[QUOTE]If you adapt a movie into a game, you change it so that it makes sense as a game.[/QUOTE]
Not the same thing at all, though. A movie adapted into a game is still following the movie's storyline unless it's related only by the title.
Adapting a VN into a series means one of two things: adapting the story of one route, or creating a new story made out of all of the routes. The latter rarely goes well, specifically because each VN route is supposed to be a self contained story typically based on a particular character.
[QUOTE=Kidd;47799855]Just seeing Bikini Warrior for next season just makes me wonder.[/QUOTE]
I'm less wondrous at that and moreso at Fate/Kaleid. [I]Whyyyyyy[/I]
[QUOTE=Reds;47799894]Stay Night is trying to be close to the VN though.
You'd have to wildly reconstruct the entire thing to match what you're asking and radically alter the plot while mixing and matching routes, or even just nuke it and rewrite it from the ground up. That's a ridiculous thing to ask for.[/QUOTE]
If you can't make a good adaption that stands on it's own two feet, why would you even adapt it then? The VN is there.
Everyone craps on about how the DEEN adaptation was shit but at least it most of it's characters doing something. Why couldn't this current UBW at least be as ambitious as Studio DEEN's? What we have is 25 episode for something that really doesn't justify that amount of screentime. That's my biggest gripe. Have your story about Shirou but does it really need to be 25 episodes? We have several confrontations with Caster that take forever to get resolved and Shirou vs Archer could really use some trimming. Make it 13 with the promise of the other routes (not a movie ala Heaven's Feel, I think that's condensing the plot down too much). If you have to blow it up to 25 episodes then fill them with actual stuff.
EDIT: Also what dgg said
[QUOTE=dgg;47799901]If you can't make a good adaption that stands on it's own two feet, why would you even adapt it then? The VN is there.[/QUOTE]
Because action works best when animated.
The point of the anime to make a very faithful adaptation. It's for people who liked the VN. I feel dumb for saying it burn the show just isn't for you. It's for the people who want it to have all of the things you dislike about it.
I'm glad none of you happen to be anime directors
[QUOTE=dgg;47799867]This is an anime, not a visual novel. Why do you keep arguing about how the visual novel is constructed?
An adaption needs to adapt to the medium.
If you adapt a movie into a game, you change it so that it makes sense as a game.[/QUOTE]
Visual novels are cursed to always have problems with their anime adaptions, because they always have more than one story. If you go the "do everything" route of adaption like grisaia, you tend to get a huge mess that makes no sense and has no time to flesh out anything. if you go the "do one route" path, you have the problem of most vn's not giving every bit of information in each route.
fate/stay night is worse than most in this regard, it has an enforced playing order, you can not play ubw before fate, or heaven's feel before ubw. Taking the length of the ubw anime into account, to accurately portray the experience of the novel you would need about 70 fucking episodes.
you likewise can not "change it to fit the medium" without completely rewriting it from the ground up, as shown by deen's anime that tried to solve the route problem by hamfisting in bits of the others. And since the fanbase cries about Shirou [B]wearing a jacket[/B] he shouldn't be rewriting it would alienate the entire audience.
also replying to a later post, you said "where are the good parts from zero" then basically complain it's not zero for a long time, I wonder how i could think you wanted it to be more like zero?
[QUOTE=dgg;47799882]I don't understand why you think I dislike it for "not being zero" that's not it at all.
I dislike F/Sn because it is the way it is. It lacks a lot of shit that could have made it interesting, things you can find in F/Z, thus the comparison.
F/Z is a natural point of comparision because it's part of the same franchise. I don't understand how you can say that it's wrong and misguided to compare the two. Should I not compare JoJo Stardust Crusaders to JoJo Battle Tendency? Because they are different stories in different time periods? Should I not compare Psycho-Pass S1 and S2 with eachother because a different person wrote the story for the seasons?
Your reasoning seems to be "I don't like it that you compare the two, so please stop :("[/QUOTE]
Both those stories have the same narrative structure though. Zero and UBW are fundamentally different stories. A direct comparison doesn't make perfect sense. HOWEVER that does not mean that the statement "I prefer fate/zero" is wrong. If you made UBW like zero that would be like taking baccano! and putting everything in a perfectly chronological order.
[QUOTE=dgg;47799901]If you can't make a good adaption that stands on it's own two feet, why would you even adapt it then? The VN is there.[/QUOTE]
Because money/popular demand/ its not perfect but its still pretty decent and all around entertaining enough.
Although by the time I finished my post rakshi said what I wanted to say better :P.
[QUOTE=Shadow187(FP);47799900]I'm less wondrous at that and moreso at Fate/Kaleid. [I]Whyyyyyy[/I][/QUOTE]
Fate/Kaleid isnt even that bad tbh
[QUOTE=Reds;47799922]Because action works best when animated.
The point of the anime to make a very faithful adaptation. It's for people who liked the VN. I feel dumb for saying it burn the show just isn't for you. It's for the people who want it to have all of the things you dislike about it.[/QUOTE]
Which is funny because there is hardly any action in the show.
[QUOTE=NotMeh;47799926]I'm glad none of you happen to be anime directors[/QUOTE]
dgg should direct an adaption of a generic high school LN.
It'll be hailed as an incomprehensible arthouse piece for years to come.
[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;47799929]Visual novels are cursed to always have problems with their anime adaptions, because they always have more than one story. If you go the "do everything" route of adaption like grisaia, you tend to get a huge mess that makes no sense and has no time to flesh out anything. if you go the "do one route" path, you have the problem of most vn's not giving every bit of information in each route.
fate/stay night is worse than most in this regard, it has an enforced playing order, you can not play ubw before fate, or heaven's feel before ubw. Taking the length of the ubw anime into account, to accurately portray the experience of the novel you would need about 70 fucking episodes.
you likewise can not "change it to fit the medium" without completely rewriting it from the ground up, as shown by deen's anime that tried to solve the route problem by hamfisting in bits of the others. And since the fanbase cries about Shirou [B]wearing a jacket[/B] he shouldn't be rewriting it would alienate the entire audience.
also replying to a later post, you said "where are the good parts from zero" then basically complain it's not zero for a long time, I wonder how i could think you wanted it to be more like zero?[/QUOTE]
Are we all just purposefully ignoring Clannad which dipped into all the routes but put focus on one? Those it didn't dive into it made and OVA for.
[QUOTE=Jsoldier;47799932]Fate/Kaleid isnt even that bad tbh[/QUOTE]
Isn't that magical girls/fan service/ silly shit 24/7?
I would need fucking morphine to watch that without going insane.
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;47799902]Everyone craps on about how the DEEN adaptation was shit but at least it most of it's characters doing something.[/QUOTE]
Characters doing something does not = good. Deen's adaptation was terrible almost specifically because of this.
[QUOTE]Why couldn't this current UBW at least be as ambitious as Studio DEEN's? What we have is 25 episode for something that really doesn't justify that amount of screentime. That's my biggest gripe. Have your story about Shirou but does it really need to be 25 episodes? We have several confrontations with Caster that take forever to get resolved and Shirou vs Archer could really use some trimming.[/QUOTE]
Um yes it does need this many episodes, because that's how long the route it's adapting is. As it is, the show has already cut down on unecessary extra bullshit. If they cut down on any more they might as well call it "UBW Abridged".
[QUOTE]Make it 13 with the promise of the other routes (not a movie ala Heaven's Feel, I think that's condensing the plot down too much). If you have to blow it up to 25 episodes then fill them with actual stuff.[/QUOTE]
God forbid they actually adapt the story how it plays out? Also lol, Heaven's Feel is a movie because the actual plot of Heaven's Feel is like 2 hours tops. The rest of the route is basically Anal Sex Simulator. Cutting all that down for a movie is pretty reasonable.
[QUOTE=Murky42;47799956]Isn't that magical girls/fan service/ silly shit 24/7?
I would need fucking morphine to watch that without going insane.[/QUOTE]
from what I know it also has some pretty good fight scenes
[QUOTE=NotMeh;47799965]from what I know it also has some pretty good fight scenes[/QUOTE]
I would post videos of the action scenes, but they're riddled with spoilers. If you're a fan of anything Nasu then I would recommend it
Does anybody else feel like there's not much to talk about for most of the shows this season? I finish good episodes and just can't think of anything to say about them.
-snip-
[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;47799929]fate/stay night is worse than most in this regard, it has an enforced playing order, you can not play ubw before fate, or heaven's feel before ubw. Taking the length of the ubw anime into account, to accurately portray the experience of the novel you would need about 70 fucking episodes.
you likewise can not "change it to fit the medium" without completely rewriting it from the ground up, as shown by deen's anime that tried to solve the route problem by hamfisting in bits of the others. And since the fanbase cries about Shirou [B]wearing a jacket[/B] he shouldn't be rewriting it would alienate the entire audience.
also replying to a later post, you said "where are the good parts from zero" then basically complain it's not zero for a long time, I wonder how i could think you wanted it to be more like zero?[/QUOTE]
I don't see why they can't make their show with the plan to have it run for 70 episodes in total, or whatever number is necessary to make it work out in anime. (hopefully shorter, where they cut out useless exposition, but that never happens)
Fanbases will cry about everything, that's not new. Japan is especially notorious for being obsessive about that kind of shit.
I would like it to do the things Zero did. Be a good show with interesting characters, character development and dialogue that is actually worth listening to. I don't want it to be F/Z, I want it to be good, and F/Z did things F/Sn doesn't that made it good.
Holy shit Danmachi 8 had a well animated fight scene that took up most of the entire episode without any of the fight scene fluff.
Like holy shit
[QUOTE=Reds;47799978]Does anybody else feel like there's not much to talk about for mostnofnthr shows this season? In finish good episodes and just can't think of anything to say about them.[/QUOTE]
It's an incredibly boring season.
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