[QUOTE=Muf;17815704]You are a dumb ass..
Pistols have way less recoil than a 12 gauge.
When I shot my friends 12 gauge my shoulder hurt for almost 2 days.
This is coming from a person in the US Marines, I own an AK47, AMD65, AR10, 2 Colt 1911s, an M14, and several shitty .22lrs, Mosin Nagant 7.62x54r, and shotguns.[/QUOTE]
Somehow I doubt you are in the marines if your shoulder hurt for two days after shooting a 12 Ga. just yesterday in 2 hours I blew through 100 00 Buckshot shells and 150 Mosin rounds, my shoulder feels fine, and I was only in the army for a month.
Mossberg 500 12ga. Preferably one with a pistol grip as opposed to a full stock. May I reccomend the JIC?
[img]http://discountgundealer.com/images/Moss500C2.jpg[/img]
Dont keep it in the tube obviously, but its a fine and dandy home defense weapon right out of the box. I reccomend a low velocity shot or hollowpoint slugs. Mind you a slug will kick alot harder with the shorter barrel and will penetrate alot further if you miss.
Also, to argue in shotguns favors:
If you are smart, you can load you shotgun with various rounds to fit the situation, for example, loaded in my 500 right now, in order is:
-A low velocity beanbag round (If the assailant is armed, I can pump this one right out of the gun, first thing)
-Low velocity shot ( To put the assailant down)
-Hollowpoint non-rifled deer slug (If he tries anything else, this will almost for sure incapacitate)
-4 more slugs
As was said previously, hopefully the situation wont result in any exchange of fire. Its not uncommon for a criminal to give up after the initial racking of a shotgun pump. You just dont get that intimidation with a pistol.
Also, to respond to the accusation of the shotguns magazine tube springs wearing out:
As long as you replace the spring every 3 months or so (a 15$ fix AT MOST) you should be fine. And as a matter of course you should be taking the weapon to the range every 3 or so months anyway, after which you should give it the nessecary cleaning and oiling, and possibly spring replacement.
Not that theres anything wrong with a good pistol, its just that, IMO, you want the stopping power and intimidation factor from the shotgun. The ability to end a confrontation by simple cocking your weapon is nice feature.
As I said before, stopping power doesn't make a difference in home defense. I know you want to stroke your muzzle velocity and stopping power cock, but if you are shooting to kill, as you should, a single 9mm round should be enough. If you aim at the upper torso any shot should incapacitate.
Is it illegal to shoot a robber in the back?
Like if you catch him in your house and he starts running and you gun him down?
One one hand it could be considered cold blooded murder to shoot them in the back, but on the other hand you could say that you didn't want him to get away so you incapacitated him.
Although you could just be pissed that they broke into your house, and you want him off the streets one way or the other.
[QUOTE=Gubbinz96;17822050]Polololololictical correctness be damned if I was in a situation like that, where it was either me or the robber, would I be in the mind to shoot to wound? The answer is a massive [highlight][b]No.[/b][/highlight]
People trespassing/breaking into a house 99% of the time with undesirable intent, he's fully responsible for the shit that would hit him if he decides to go ahead.
Now if he was NOT inside the house that's an entirely different story.[/QUOTE]
That's not political correctness.
This isn't the thread to sound cool and edgy by denouncing political correctness.
[editline]10:01PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;17823066]Is it illegal to shoot a robber in the back?
Like if you catch him in your house and he starts running and you gun him down?
One one hand it could be considered cold blooded murder to shoot them in the back, but on the other hand you could say that you didn't want him to get away so you incapacitated him.
Although you could just be pissed that they broke into your house, and you want him off the streets one way or the other.[/QUOTE]
Let's get something straight, [highlight]if the robber was not a threat, it is illegal to shoot him, that includes running away.[/highlight]
Shotgun, 00 Buck. Handguns can and will overpenentrate and are harder to aim. .22 caliber is hard to defend with effectively because of its low lethality. 00 Buckshot will ensure that the BG goes down and stays down. I recommend the Mossberg 500 over the Remington 870 for various reasons, but by and large they are mostly the same.
Also, regarding killing and whatnot: Many states have a "castle doctrine", meaning that it is okay to use lethal force if you believe there is an intruder that doesn't belong on your property. Thus it is usually okay to shoot to kill. However, it should be a LAST RESORT method - one should try to scare the bad guy out of the house first, before resorting to more severe methods.
.22 caliber will definitely stagger a person. A shotgun causes much more damage. If you miss, there goes your TV, your wall, everything near the wall etc.
But then again, you should never ever fire unless he's about to shoot you.
[QUOTE=FunnyBunny;17823066]Is it illegal to shoot a robber in the back?
Like if you catch him in your house and he starts running and you gun him down?
One one hand it could be considered cold blooded murder to shoot them in the back, but on the other hand you could say that you didn't want him to get away so you incapacitated him.
Although you could just be pissed that they broke into your house, and you want him off the streets one way or the other.[/QUOTE]
You're allowed to use only enough force to remove the threat. A robber getting the fuck out is not a threat.
[QUOTE=thisispain;17823074]That's not political correctness.
This isn't the thread to sound cool and edgy by denouncing political correctness.
[editline]10:01PM[/editline]
Let's get something straight, [highlight]if the robber was not a threat, it is illegal to shoot him, that includes running away.[/highlight][/QUOTE]
Even if he managed to steal something and you just want to I believe it's called, "cap him in da' knees"?
Surely you can shoot him so you can get your stuff back...
[QUOTE=Perfumly;17814610]A colt M1911 is a bad choice of a home defense weapon due to its low magazine capacity. Myself, I use a Glock 17 for home defense but I also have an SAR-1 and [b]M1 carbine[/b] in my room.[/QUOTE]
An M1 Carbine would also make a nice home defense weapon. Small, light, and low recoil. Ammo is quite expensive though.
[editline]10:14PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=angelangel;17823225]Even if he managed to steal something and you just want to I believe it's called, "cap him in da' knees"?
Surely you can shoot him so you can get your stuff back...[/QUOTE]
Nope.
[QUOTE=angelangel;17823225]Even if he managed to steal something and you just want to I believe it's called, "cap him in da' knees"?
Surely you can shoot him so you can get your stuff back...[/QUOTE]
If you do that, you better get a damn good fucking lawyer. Cops aren't allowed to shoot shoplifters either.
My uncle has a trapdoor under his living room carpet that's packed with all sorts of rifles and hunting firearms.
I'll be damned if anyone dare rob him.
[QUOTE=thisispain;17823176].22 caliber will definitely stagger a person. A shotgun causes much more damage. If you miss, there goes your TV, your wall, everything near the wall etc.
But then again, you should never ever fire unless he's about to shoot you.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. What if he's hopped up on drugs? .22 won't do much to faze him - you're gonna need something with a lot of kinetic energy. Plus shotgun rounds really don't spread that much in enclosed areas, in fact I bet the spread is less than 1 inch at 30 ft, which is where most HD situations take place, so really if you miss you might take out one item. Buckshot will penetrate 8 boards of drywall, but even 9mm will penetrate 12 boards so buckshot is much safer to use than pistol or rifle rounds.
[QUOTE=spacedooky;17823333]Not necessarily. What if he's hopped up on drugs? .22 won't do much to faze him - you're gonna need something with a lot of kinetic energy. Plus shotgun rounds really don't spread that much in enclosed areas, in fact I bet the spread is less than 1 inch at 30 ft, which is where most HD situations take place, so really if you miss you might take out one item. Buckshot will penetrate 8 boards of drywall, but even 9mm will penetrate 12 boards so buckshot is much safer to use than pistol or rifle rounds.[/QUOTE]
A 9mm doesn't spread though.
[QUOTE=spacedooky;17823333]Not necessarily. What if he's hopped up on drugs?[/QUOTE]
I'm not aware of any drug that reduces the effect of Hypovolemia
[QUOTE=spacedooky;17823333] .22 won't do much to faze him - you're gonna need something with a lot of kinetic energy. Plus shotgun rounds really don't spread that much in enclosed areas, in fact I bet the spread is less than 1 inch at 30 ft, which is where most HD situations take place, so really if you miss you might take out one item. Buckshot will penetrate 8 boards of drywall, but even 9mm will penetrate 12 boards so buckshot is much safer to use than pistol or rifle rounds.[/QUOTE]
Purely in the terms of actual armed confrontation, it's complete overkill.
[QUOTE=angelangel;17821717]Why would you need a "gun expert" to help you decide what gun is best for "home defence".
You just pop down to the shops and buy a gun, perhaps a handgun? A relatively low calibre firearm? You don't want to kill the bastard, you just injure him severely, surely.[/QUOTE]
Never shoot to injure, if you're at the point of opening fire on someone with speeding scraps of metal then you'd better be hoping to kill them.
IMO i'd rather use my grandfathers gun case, which includes
An M1 Carbine
Some sort of revolver type thing
A rifle(Can't remember the name)
A shotgun
and some gum
[QUOTE=zombiefreak;17823365]A 9mm doesn't spread though.[/QUOTE]
It might not spread, but if you do miss, it will overpenetrate more than buck. Actually, any round that does any damage to a human being will also do damage to property - buckshot is simply easiest to use and is the least harmful of all rounds to property.
[editline]11:08PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;17823394]I'm not aware of any drug that reduces the effect of Hypovolemia
Purely in the terms of actual armed confrontation, it's complete overkill.[/QUOTE]
You're right, there isn't one. But PCP will function similar to anesthetic sometimes, where a person will not feel pain. Thus you have to stop them by destroying vital parts of the body, not by merely pinning them down because they feel hurt. And buckshot isn't overkill at all, why would you say that?
No, you use a shotgun because it's very intimidating. It's a bad idea to shoot a 9mm, and it's even worse for buckshot.
[editline]11:09PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=spacedooky;17823774]
You're right, there isn't one. But PCP will function similar to anesthetic sometimes, where a person will not feel pain. Thus you have to stop them by destroying vital parts of the body, not by merely pinning them down because they feel hurt. And buckshot isn't overkill at all, why would you say that?[/QUOTE]
.22 doesn't stop you because it makes you feel pain. .22, hell any bullet really causes intense shock and blood-loss, which will slow you down regardless of how you can feel it or not.
And you should always be aiming at a vital part.
What makes 9mm a bad choice, or buckshot? Does that mean that one should use the smallest round available?
If we are talking about actual gunfire in a house, yes you want the smallest round.
But this is home defense, so you want the most scary looking gun, not the most powerful one.
Hell, if you can pass off a plastic M16 as a real one use that.
[QUOTE=thisispain;17807546]Most guns can kill via any shot. If you are using a 9mm round, any shot to the chest, head, or lower torso usually staggers or even drops the target. Even if you have piercing rounds, any shot aimed at the upper torso has a very high chance of killing the target.
If the bullet hits the heart, lungs, throat, jugular vein, or brain, it's an almost guaranteed drop.
Ideally the situation won't result in gun-fire. A shotgun is much more intimidating than a handgun.[/QUOTE]
No. Pistol calibers are awful at killing people and even worse at stopping a determined attacker.
9mm is a joke. A dangerous joke that loves to fly through walls and hit people you never intended to shoot.
You want nothing less than .40 S&W hollow points. Even that is pushing it. Ideally .45 ACP would be used as it is substantially more capable of stopping a target with the added bonus of relatively low object penetration.
.45 ACP using hydra shok hollow points have excellent statistics for stopping humans and a long history of use in actual firefights. I believe Golden Sabre rounds also have a decent history.
And of course you have everyone suggesting shotguns. Shotguns are LONG weapons with a lot of weight. To move with a weapon like that takes serious training. The spread at home defense distances is going to be virtually nothing, the sound will be disorienting, and the recoil will be substantial. Plus god knows what will happen to someone not prepared for the recoil.
[editline]02:33AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Perfumly;17814610]A colt M1911 is a bad choice of a home defense weapon due to its low magazine capacity. Myself, I use a Glock 17 for home defense but I also have an SAR-1 and M1 carbine in my room.[/QUOTE]
1911's have an extremely long combat history and were designed to be wielded accurately even with one hand. They can function in virtually any condition, which is extremely important for a home defense firearm which may sit in a drawer for years without attention, and can mag swap like lightning. Though honestly any more than about 3 rounds and shit has gone way south.
Well, further south. Opening fire at all is already pretty damn far south.
[editline]02:37AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=angelangel;17821717]Why would you need a "gun expert" to help you decide what gun is best for "home defence".
You just pop down to the shops and buy a gun, perhaps a handgun? A relatively low calibre firearm? You don't want to kill the bastard, you just injure him severely, surely.[/QUOTE]
You don't want to kill or injure him. Your goal in defense shooting is to STOP them. The most effective means of stopping them is to aim for a shot with a high probability of lethality as them dropping to the floor with a fatal wound is a rather reliable means of stopping them.
Small calibers are not advisable. They have low stopping power and the ones designed to actually be used against people have a nasty tendency to over penetrate.
[editline]02:39AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Timebomb757;17822400]Mossberg 500 12ga. Preferably one with a pistol grip as opposed to a full stock. May I reccomend the JIC?
[/QUOTE]
Uhh, that would be a short barreled shotgun and would require a tax stamp.
This is kinda off topic but someone needs to tell you this.
So far, the OP has been rated dumb 5 times, that means that everyone but 5 people that have read this are either paranoid, live in a war zone or simply American. Why? Since no one has pointed out that a gun for home defense isn't such a great idea. The statistics say that there is more likely that you will shoot a member of the family or a guest in your house than a trespasser. A good and visible alarm system would be sufficient to keep the burglars and such away before they even have entered the building. The barrel of a gun up your face would be scary to a criminal , but so would a security camera. If you can't afford an expensive security system, get a dog. I would recommend a German shepherd.
[QUOTE=GunFox;17824018]No. Pistol calibers are awful at killing people and even worse at stopping a determined attacker.
9mm is a joke. A dangerous joke that loves to fly through walls and hit people you never intended to shoot.
You want nothing less than .40 S&W hollow points. Even that is pushing it. Ideally .45 ACP would be used as it is substantially more capable of stopping a target with the added bonus of relatively low object penetration.
.[/QUOTE]
Whaa? .45 is overkill against any unarmoured attacker. We've had many people go into shock from just a few .22 bullets in our hospital.
This isn't the movies, a 9mm bullet alone is dangerous. If even one hits you in the stomach you'll go into shock quickly and are likely to die unless you get treatment.
Tec 9, my Grandma has one.
No really.
[editline]07:29PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Wanpis;17829496]This is kinda off topic but someone needs to tell you this.
So far, the OP has been rated dumb 5 times, that means that everyone but 5 people that have read this are either paranoid, live in a war zone or simply American. Why? Since no one has pointed out that a gun for home defense isn't such a great idea. The statistics say that there is more likely that you will shoot a member of the family or a guest in your house than a trespasser. A good and visible alarm system would be sufficient to keep the burglars and such away before they even have entered the building. The barrel of a gun up your face would be scary to a criminal , but so would a security camera. If you can't afford an expensive security system, get a dog. I would recommend a German shepherd.[/QUOTE]
Pussy.
[QUOTE=Wanpis;17829496]This is kinda off topic but someone needs to tell you this.
So far, the OP has been rated dumb 5 times, that means that everyone but 5 people that have read this are either paranoid, live in a war zone or simply American. Why? Since no one has pointed out that a gun for home defense isn't such a great idea. The statistics say that there is more likely that you will shoot a member of the family or a guest in your house than a trespasser. A good and visible alarm system would be sufficient to keep the burglars and such away before they even have entered the building. The barrel of a gun up your face would be scary to a criminal , but so would a security camera. If you can't afford an expensive security system, get a dog. I would recommend a German shepherd.[/QUOTE]
Let's assume the robber has a mask, and he is not afraid of cameras (considering that alot of robberies take place under a camera) what then?
Also for dogs, unless they have suitable training, they will meet the robber about the same way they meet you.
Hypothetical situation: someone is threatening or destroying personal property and is attempting to make an escape, is it illegal to fire for a incapacitation shot?
I.E.: Arson.
[QUOTE=ARR DARMA;17835390]Hypothetical situation: someone is threatening or destroying personal property and is attempting to make an escape, is it illegal to fire for a incapacitation shot?
I.E.: Arson.[/QUOTE]
can only shoot him when he is being a threat, him running away would not be a threat
[QUOTE=Wanpis;17829496]The statistics say that there is more likely that you will shoot a member of the family or a guest in your house than a trespasser.[/QUOTE]
what
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