Gun experts come here, I need help deciding on home defense weapons - General

[QUOTE=Perfumly;17814610]A colt M1911 is a bad choice of a home defense weapon due to its low magazine capacity. Myself, I use a Glock 17 for home defense but I also have an SAR-1 and M1 carbine in my room.[/QUOTE] There's a reason it has such a low capacity. With a .45, unless you hit the attacker in the hand or somewhere equally less vital, they are gonna go down, no question. The .45 hits [i]hard[/i]. Granted, extra ammo is always nice, but in my opinion the .45 outweighs the 9 any day in everything except ammunition availability... finding a box of .45 is like finding a five pound diamond these days.

[QUOTE=thisispain;17834510]Whaa? .45 is overkill against any unarmoured attacker. We've had many people go into shock from just a few .22 bullets in our hospital. This isn't the movies, a 9mm bullet alone is dangerous. If even one hits you in the stomach you'll go into shock quickly and are likely to die unless you get treatment.[/QUOTE] .45 ACP isn't an armor piercing bullet. It is the precise opposite. It completely lacks the ability to penetrate armor. .45 ACP is very slow moving and quite possibly the most effective self defense caliber. Whereas 9mm has a long history of failing miserably in this task. And no, it isn't the movies, pistol calibers rarely stop you immediately. By the time they reach the hospital they have been shot long enough for shock to set in. Yes, all gunshot wounds can EVENTUALLY kill you with varying degrees of immediacy, but the effectiveness of pistol calibers is linked directly to the determination of the attacker and how he perceives a gunshot wound.

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[QUOTE=GunFox;17836760].45 ACP isn't an armor piercing bullet. It is the precise opposite. It completely lacks the ability to penetrate armor. .45 ACP is very slow moving and quite possibly the most effective self defense caliber. Whereas 9mm has a long history of failing miserably in this task. And no, it isn't the movies, pistol calibers rarely stop you immediately. By the time they reach the hospital they have been shot long enough for shock to set in. Yes, all gunshot wounds can EVENTUALLY kill you with varying degrees of immediacy, but the effectiveness of pistol calibers is linked directly to the determination of the attacker and how he perceives a gunshot wound.[/QUOTE] I would disagree, GunFox. While 9mm FMJ might require more than one round to stop someone, hollowpoints are a-okay. 9mm, 40, and 45 all can penetrate 12 inches into ballistic gel (the minimum accepted to reliably ensure someone stays down), although 45 will go even farther obviously. In fact sometimes 9mm and 40 will go even farther than 45, as you can see here: [img]http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg[/img]

22. Caliber simple easy to operate and can scare people.

[QUOTE=Wanpis;17829496]This is kinda off topic but someone needs to tell you this. So far, the OP has been rated dumb 5 times, that means that everyone but 5 people that have read this are either paranoid, live in a war zone or simply American. Why? Since no one has pointed out that a gun for home defense isn't such a great idea. The statistics say that there is more likely that you will shoot a member of the family or a guest in your house than a trespasser. A good and visible alarm system would be sufficient to keep the burglars and such away before they even have entered the building. The barrel of a gun up your face would be scary to a criminal , but so would a security camera. If you can't afford an expensive security system, get a dog. I would recommend a German shepherd.[/QUOTE] God forbid the robbers have guns and knives. Also has it occurred to you that a dog is pretty freaking high maintenance? I mean you have to keep it fed, warm, healthy and all that. [editline]08:52PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Zambies!;17838111]22. Caliber simple easy to operate and can scare people.[/QUOTE] And has almost no stopping power and WILL NOT STOP determined attackers (unless you get a headshot which is highly unlikely considering you've got a fuckton of adrenaline pumping through you)

[QUOTE=spacedooky;17838012]I would disagree, GunFox. While 9mm FMJ might require more than one round to stop someone, hollowpoints are a-okay. 9mm, 40, and 45 all can penetrate 12 inches into ballistic gel (the minimum accepted to reliably ensure someone stays down), although 45 will go even farther obviously. In fact sometimes 9mm and 40 will go even farther than 45, as you can see here: [img]http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] Yes, 9mm and .40 S&W go deeper. That is their purpose. They penetrate through objects. That is almost entirely unrelated to lethality. .45 ACP's lethality comes from being a huge heavy bullet. It leaves a large wound channel, causing more overall damage as it proceeds through the body. You can get .22 loads that will go clean through a person, but because the round is so small, the overall effect is extremely minimal. You want the round to leave a giant hole in someone. Look, you can argue for 9mm all day long, but at the end of the day all reports from police and military personnel report the round as insufficient against unarmored targets and worthless against heavily armored targets. .40 S&W is a great round. Police departments use it because it is a reasonable combination of .45 ACP and 9mm. Police have cause to occasionally shoot through light cover like car doors or windshields, so the increased velocity of the .40 S&W is worth the relatively mild lethality decrease of using a smaller round. Civilians almost never have cause to shoot through cover, and in fact want the exact opposite if they are intelligent. Which means the extreme lethality associated with .45 ACP and low penetration through objects that aren't breathing is very attractive and suitable for home defense. .357 sig is also a decent round, very similar to .40 S&W, but has really high penetration. Note that you can swap out the barrel on a Sig chambered in .357 sig for a .40 S&W barrel and basically swap between the calibers freely. It is a pretty flexible choice that lets you use multiple ammunition types simply by having two barrels. Most .357 sig magazines will actually work with both round types too, dunno if that goes the other way though.

Either a 9mm ( no real need to be picky ) or a snubnose revolver.

In America if you kill someone breaking into your home, unless you have a license to kill, you get your gun taken away and maybe get arrested unless you have a license to kill. But if you're crazy i suggest a double barrel 12 gauge and either blanks or 7 1/2 bird shot, not heavy enough to go through walls but ok stopping power [url]http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php[/url] [editline]08:26PM[/editline] off topic but, woot post 100!!! [editline]08:27PM[/editline] sorry, meant to do this Woot Post 100!!! [editline]08:27PM[/editline] god damnit.... I'm new to forums

[QUOTE=BetterOffUndead;17838652]In America if you kill someone breaking into your home, unless you have a license to kill, you get your gun taken away and maybe get arrested unless you have a license to kill. But if you're crazy i suggest a double barrel 12 gauge and either blanks or 7 1/2 bird shot, not heavy enough to go through walls but ok stopping power [url]http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php[/url] [editline]08:26PM[/editline] off topic but, woot post 100!!! [editline]08:27PM[/editline] sorry, meant to do this Woot Post 100!!! [editline]08:27PM[/editline] god damnit.... I'm new to forums[/QUOTE] Blanks are never okay. You will regret them if you come face to face with a gun barrel loaded with something that isn't blanks. Birdshot is for BIRDS. Birdshot will hurt like HELL in close quarters but it will likely not kill an attacker immediately and worse, they will probably survive to sue you into oblivion. If you open fire in self defense you WANT THEM TO LEAVE IN A BODY BAG. Your life will be HELL if they survive.

when i said birdshot i meant buckshot just tired right now [editline]08:37PM[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;17838725]Blanks are never okay. You will regret them if you come face to face with a gun barrel loaded with something that isn't blanks. Birdshot is for BIRDS. Birdshot will hurt like HELL in close quarters but it will likely not kill an attacker immediately and worse, they will probably survive to sue you into oblivion. If you open fire in self defense you WANT THEM TO LEAVE IN A BODY BAG. Your life will be HELL if they survive.[/QUOTE] usually burglars won't have guns [editline]08:38PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BetterOffUndead;17838786]when i said birdshot i meant buckshot just tired right now [editline]08:37PM[/editline] usually burglars won't have guns[/QUOTE] with a double barrel you could put a blank to scare them in one barrel and a real one in the other depending on how good a shot you are you could still hit them with one [editline]08:39PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BetterOffUndead;17838786]when i said birdshot i meant buckshot just tired right now [editline]08:37PM[/editline] usually burglars won't have guns [editline]08:38PM[/editline] with a double barrel you could put a blank to scare them in one barrel and a real one in the other depending on how good a shot you are you could still hit them with one[/QUOTE] hah replying as if to myself

[QUOTE=GunFox;17824018] Uhh, that would be a short barreled shotgun and would require a tax stamp. [/QUOTE] I dont believe the JIC is considered an SBS, lemme check. Nope. The barrel is 1/2 an inch longer than the SBS limit of 18.

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;17838869]Which is like 5$, no biggy.[/QUOTE] 5$ and an ungodly amount of paperwork. Then a signature from the local law enforcement official. Then 6 months for the feds to okay it. And then for the rest of the existence of the rifle you have to make sure that you never take it somewhere prohibited and notify the government every time you bring it across state lines in advance of the travel date.

:eng99: all this talk is all jibber jabber GunFox is so expert.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17838884]5$ and an ungodly amount of paperwork. Then a signature from the local law enforcement official. Then 6 months for the feds to okay it. And then for the rest of the existence of the rifle you have to make sure that you never take it somewhere prohibited and notify the government every time you bring it across state lines in advance of the travel date.[/QUOTE] Edited my post, its not an SBS.

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;17838916]Edited my post, its not an SBS.[/QUOTE] Yeah the barrel I knew, but was assuming without the stock it clocked in well under the 26 inch requirement, but it looks like it actually comes in closer to 28. My bad. Still a shitty choice. Shotguns have stocks for a reason.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17824018] 1911's have an extremely long combat history and were designed to be wielded accurately even with one hand. They can function in virtually any condition, which is extremely important for a home defense firearm which may sit in a drawer for years without attention, and can mag swap like lightning. Though honestly any more than about 3 rounds and shit has gone way south. [/QUOTE] Not exactly my point, there are handguns that are just as reliable if not more so than a 1911 with a higher mag capacity which could be important. For instance you could get a Glock 17 and you would have 17 or 18 rounds to waste away just in case you're so fucking nervous that it makes you a terrible shot. [b]Edit:[/b] And a 9mm would be just as effective at stopping someone as a .45 in most situations.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17838965]Yeah the barrel I knew, but was assuming without the stock it clocked in well under the 26 inch requirement, but it looks like it actually comes in closer to 28. My bad. Still a shitty choice. Shotguns have stocks for a reason.[/QUOTE] Unless you want to invest in a more tactical shotgun though, ones with stocks are generally accompanied by long barrels. Not good in a hallway or staircase. As its been said, hopefully you wont need to fire, and if you do, one shot should do it, so compensating for the muzzle rise on a stockless shotgun shouldnt be a big deal. And if the shit really hits the fan, there are specific methods of controlling a stockless shotgun in combat, I have a youtube video around here somewhere... [editline]04:00AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Perfumly;17839005] And a 9mm would be just as effective at stopping someone as a .45 in most situations.[/QUOTE] Not really. Hence why the double tap was developed to compensate for the 9mm's lack of power. An adrenaline fueled assailant could probably take at least 2 9mm rounds before really being incapacitated, whereas a .45 hollowpoint could do that in one. Or, you could just not go through the hassle of getting a pistol permit and buy a shotgun... Edit: Cant find the video, but Im pretty sure its called the kentucky carry or something to that effect.

GunFox you underestimate the amount of shock that results from even a .22 gun shot. The question isn't the hole or how much it penetrates, it's the place you shoot. A .22 in a person's stomach will quickly send them into shock, and there's not really a way you can ignore blood loss. In a measure of home-defense, a .22 or a 9mm is enough. However, you shouldn't ideally shoot at all, which is why a shotgun is good. I'd be much more frightened of a shotgun than a 9mm.

[QUOTE=Timebomb757;17839047] Not really. Hence why the double tap was developed to compensate for the 9mm's lack of power. An adrenaline fueled assailant could probably take at least 2 9mm rounds before really being incapacitated, whereas a .45 hollowpoint could do that in one. [/QUOTE] I have 9mm black talons and I guarantee that will drop someone in a single hit.

[QUOTE=Perfumly;17839005]Not exactly my point, there are handguns that are just as reliable if not more so than a 1911 with a higher mag capacity which could be important. For instance you could get a Glock 17 and you would have 17 or 18 rounds to waste away just in case you're so fucking nervous that it makes you a terrible shot. [b]Edit:[/b] And a 9mm would be just as effective at stopping someone as a .45 in most situations.[/QUOTE] Because you need to place your shots carefully. If you go and use all 17 rounds of 9mm, you are a fucking danger and shouldn't be given a firearm. 9mm goes through walls like they were paper. We're talking you shoot across the street and it goes through someone's entire house and hits them in the back yard. 9mm and glock 17's are one of the major reasons there is so much collateral damage during gang drive-bys. A good 1911 clocks in as being stupidly reliable. Single stack magazines work even after being loaded in a drawer for years.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17839158]Because you need to place your shots carefully. If you go and use all 17 rounds of 9mm, you are a fucking danger and shouldn't be given a firearm. 9mm goes through walls like they were paper. We're talking you shoot across the street and it goes through someone's entire house and hits them in the back yard. 9mm and glock 17's are one of the major reasons there is so much collateral damage during gang drive-bys. A good 1911 clocks in as being stupidly reliable. Single stack magazines work even after being loaded in a drawer for years.[/QUOTE] Well I guess I didn't think the penetration part through. You see, I live where my closest neighbor is 100 yards from my house and on a hill, so the chances of me shooting through my wall and hitting someone are minuscule.

[url]http://www.tromix.com/images/saiga-parts/Shark.jpg[/url] Get an 18" stockless mossberg 500 with that a local gun store has one for sale, they call it the "Doorbell" thing would scare me shitless

If a .45 1911 is cheaper than a 9mm handgun then yeah it's not really an issue. I was arguing more the effectiveness of a handgun and a shotgun side-by-side.

[QUOTE=thisispain;17839117]GunFox you underestimate the amount of shock that results from even a .22 gun shot. The question isn't the hole or how much it penetrates, it's the place you shoot. A .22 in a person's stomach will quickly send them into shock, and there's not really a way you can ignore blood loss. In a measure of home-defense, a .22 or a 9mm is enough. However, you shouldn't ideally shoot at all, which is why a shotgun is good. I'd be much more frightened of a shotgun than a 9mm.[/QUOTE] sweet Jesus I'm criminal justice major. I work with police. I use firearms regularly. YES. You can kill with virtually any round. NO. Not all rounds produce significant enough trauma to stop a human being fast enough. You understand we are talking a matter of seconds here right? You realize that the goal in a self defense firearm is to kill or incapacitate completely another human being nearly instantly. Because if it isn't capable of doing so, they can shoot you. That is the point. If they are unarmed, you shouldn't be shooting them anyhow. If they are wielding a knife then they are either close enough to where you need to drop them instantly or far enough away that you can demand their surrender.

just buy her a taser, they're cheaper. you also avoid the legal issues.

[QUOTE=Perfumly;17839173]Well I guess I didn't think the penetration part through. You see, I live where my closest neighbor is 100 yards from my house and on a hill, so the chances of me shooting through my wall and hitting someone are minuscule.[/QUOTE] Ah, well in that case you are largely well off. Still not terribly a good idea to empty the mag, but way less dangerous than someone living in a more conventional modern subdivision.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17839261]Ah, well in that case you are largely well off. Still not terribly a good idea to empty the mag, but way less dangerous than someone living in a more conventional modern subdivision.[/QUOTE] I'm sure I wouldn't actually freak out and empty an entire mag, but better to have extra ammunition than not enough.

[QUOTE=GunFox;17839261]Ah, well in that case you are largely well off. Still not terribly a good idea to empty the mag, but way less dangerous than someone living in a more conventional modern subdivision.[/QUOTE] Most types of buckshot will penetrate less than a 9mm AND .45 though. Im just not seeing the advantage to a handgun or pistol caliber weapon, care to enlighten me?

A shotgun will shred a room and break more shit most likely.