Gmod GCC - Is anyone looking to run it? - Developers

I was thinking about this yesterday and I like the idea of people voting for a winner, cuz it encourages more user participation, especially from people who don't make gamemodes or have the time Only worry is people cheating, like someone getting their friends/community to mass vote for them?

They wouldn't need to cheat, but their community would definitely mass vote for them on their own. Voting is great, just not in gmod.

I have an idea for how voting could be done in a "fair" way... Loosely constructed idea: Make an addon that piggybacks and logs time spent in server in addition to several other attributes such as method of scoring ( for race game-modes it could be lowest split time, lap times, etc; for dm games it could be kills or more points for less used weapons [ think The Ship ] etc... ) Idea: Of course people can put "fake" players in the game but it'd only count non STEAM_0:0:0, non BOT, etc players and whatever. The game-mode with the most [B]activity [/B]at the end of a set period "wins". How activity is determined is decided either by the contest creator, etc... There could be additional "activity" points for hours where servers usually empty out. "Activity" could be 50% of the score and the other 50% comes from code quality/readability ( ignoring standards used but points lost for non-standardized code ), etc... This essentially gives enough time for everyone to test each game-mode and play the ones they like. This method would still have its flaws where people may be able to cheat the activity log but I think it'd be more accurate than a numbered vote on the forum because people/communities wouldn't know the standing of the game-modes until the end.

Making devs integrate a vote counter that they could cheat can't work. This is what I was talking about, overcomplicating things.

Plus wastes time because then they have to make sure it works, can't be abused, etc.

Voting should be split into two categories, public votes and judge votes. The judges should be picked beforehand and their identities made known to anyone and everyone who enters the contest. They should be given a predefined set of criteria on which to judge the game, with some of the criteria being subjective (level of fun is subjective, number of Lua errors is not). The public should also be allowed to vote so people can see which gamemodes and addons are the most popular. Rotten Tomatos and Metacritic both do this, they allow critics to vote and the public to vote. Often there is a very large difference between the two scores. The public should not be made to follow a set criteria, they should just vote for whatever gamemode or addon is the best in a given category. Here's a few off the top of my head: - Most fun - Most innovative - Most polished - Most original I'd be willing to help set some stuff up for this if there was great enough interest.

Judges were picked out and told to do the same last year, and failed miserably. The garrysmod public will vote for their favorite user or community, instead of by any criteria. That won't work at all. [editline]15th January 2015[/editline] We've already been over the reasons public voting won't work, and the drama and problems faced by an exclusive board of member judges. What's wrong with trusting it to a few FP moderators, whose judgement FP management sees as good?

I may have overcomplicated it by having the addon thing in there; a third-party system like game-tracker could be used to see how full the servers remain during the duration of voting and would make up x% of the score so even lesser known individuals without the backing of a large community could still have a chance if they made something a lot of people end up playing. Although those scripts could be fooled too by "fake" players, bots, overwritten SteamID / Nick functions, etc... Simple is probably key in this situation... Why not a small condition; the user that votes for x game-mode must've entered the game-mode server at least once? That'll prevent "mass" votes unless they played the game? A simple tool could be created to monitor the servers, monitor steamids that joined then voting would be done on a site like ScriptFodder which requires OpenID / Steam Account to log in. If the steamid wasn't ever on the server, deny the vote. Although people may have an issue with that but it seems fair that if you want to vote for something you must've played it at least once.

An extra hurdle won't stop anyone from doing what they intend to do from the start. And you're still asking people to install a special script for an ineffective complication. you guys need to stop complicating this

The tool would've been fully separate like Game-Tracker, using sockets / queries on the master server or server itself to get the players from time to time... I agree that having a script run on the server wouldn't be fair because of easily being able to be modified. It'd be nice if there was a pre-existing module for this though... But, you're right, an extra hurdle may not stop them but it'd make it more tedious so there may be less fake votes.

There's nothing wrong with having the public vote, plenty of other contests do it. Popularity usually wins out, which is why you have a panel of judges. It's hard for the judges to play favorites if there's a selection of criteria that is easy to verify by someone who isn't a judge (i.e. 5 points awarded if a gamemode has MySQL support). Edit: the easiest way to prevent bias with the judges is to make sure they can't submit any entries of their own and that they're well known in the community.

I agree that public voting would be a total shitshow. I was suggesting that [I]participants [/I]would be able to vote, as in people who actually submit an entry. It would be a pretty good middle-ground between the clusterfuck of a public "vote" and the drama of selecting/relying on a panel of "judges". People wouldn't be able to vote for their own gamemode, obviously. The chances of people ganging up to vote for a specific gamemode are small because everyone has some sort of interest in winning. This could also backfire though, since people could intentionally vote for shitty gamemodes to try to increase their chances.:tinfoil: Honestly, I think a panel of judges would work pretty well, but I don't know exactly what happened or how it failed last time.

It failed last time because for all the supposed formalizing, they were bad judges. They didn't care about being fair. Someone has to be a judge. I don't know why you guys don't like the thought of a short few moderators doing the judging. Participants judging would be interesting, but I like moderators more because they have no reason to bias the result.

[QUOTE=bitches;46941055]It failed last time because for all the supposed formalizing, they were bad judges. They didn't care about being fair. Someone has to be a judge. I don't know why you guys don't like the thought of a short few moderators doing the judging. Participants judging would be interesting, but I like moderators more because they have no reason to bias the result.[/QUOTE] Doesn't really matter too much who the judges are, as long as there is set criteria that everyone knows about. That way a judge can't just pick a gamemode because they "like" it more than others, they need to quantify why they like it with the criteria given.

I wouldn't mind being a judge if my health issues didn't make me unreliable ( never know when I'm able to be on, plus the amount of time needed for constant breaks, etc... )... Every person has biases, the judge or judges should be able to filter their biases by not allowing them to influence the vote to have a fair vote ( if done by judges, or mixed )... where biases mean things such as code style, people ( like / dislike ), game-style / genre, etc... One way that could be "forced" is each game-mode is entered and the author-name, etc is hidden but many authors have distinct coding styles so that wouldn't work...

Sorry, but no Acecool as a judge. No offense, but you have a vastly different style, and I feel like you'd take that out on people's code. Just keep it simple, please. You create said contest, a few people judge who are trustworthy, set the deadline, maybe a set theme, and when it comes time to end it, we have the servers ready and people test it. We don't need to hide anything, we don't need to set any strict rules, if the person being a judge has biases then we just don't use them.

Your feelings about me are wrong... I wouldn't be a bad judge. Everyone has their own coding style, I understand that but I'd dock points if someone uses ply everywhere and then pl in other places, etc... ( unless it makes sense, ie referencing more than one player and it is done everywhere else ) or if they don't tab with at least 1 space and leave multiple ends on 1 column, etc... Consistency is good; I'd also look for ways to optimize, etc.. I wouldn't "take it out" on anyones code... I have my own style, so does everyone else ( also why my Lua class is going to be available in many different styles; and why I let Zerf use "gmod standards" on my dev-base... I'm open minded ).

[QUOTE=Acecool;46942751]Your feelings about me are wrong... I wouldn't be a bad judge. Everyone has their own coding style, I understand that but I'd dock points if someone uses ply everywhere and then pl in other places, etc... ( unless it makes sense, ie referencing more than one player and it is done everywhere else ) or if they don't tab with at least 1 space and leave multiple ends on 1 column, etc... Consistency is good; I'd also look for ways to optimize, etc.. I wouldn't "take it out" on anyones code... I have my own style, so does everyone else ( also why my Lua class is going to be available in many different styles; and why I let Zerf use "gmod standards" on my dev-base... I'm open minded ).[/QUOTE] Should point be taken away based on consistency in the code? I think readability is more important than consistent variable names.

Readability and consistency go hand in hand. In addition, consistency implies that things were thought through instead of hack-fitted in. As I said there would be exceptions where it makes sense.

Judging panel with say several areas that they give a 1-10 in would work best imo. Eg, score for each, Hud, Gameplay, Twist usage, ease of use, multiplayer aspects. then by using the above, each judges score, would be the total of the above, ending with a result out of 50. Possibly give Gameplay a 20 point scale, as it's prob a little more important.

[QUOTE=sacred1337;46943040]Judging panel with say several areas that they give a 1-10 in would work best imo. Eg, score for each, Hud, Gameplay, Twist usage, ease of use, multiplayer aspects. then by using the above, each judges score, would be the total of the above, ending with a result out of 50. Possibly give Gameplay a 20 point scale, as it's prob a little more important.[/QUOTE] Strictly come dancing style? [img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/79055000/jpg/_79055871_79055866.jpg[/img]

Well im not exactly sure how it's scoring works, but im meaning, each judge gives it, 1-20 in Gameplay 1-10 in Hud 1-10 in Twist Usage 1-10 in Ease of use 1-10 in Multiplayer Totalled up to out of 60, or something similar to this.

My suggestions for categories (Based on sacred1337's): - Gameplay/Fun: This matters the most. It should be an enjoyable experience. - Theme/Twist: Should follow the theme or twist or whatever. I've never done one of these so I don't know how that works. - Originality: plz no shitty deathmatch/roleplay. - Polish: How good it looks. This is Garrysmod, we don't expect next-gen graphics, but having a nice HUD, menus, and effects that set your gamemode apart are a plus. - Ease of use: It should be easy for people to figure out. This could mean that your gamemode revolves around a really simple concept that people can pick up quickly, or it could mean that you provide a tutorial or instructions if necessary. This category could be part of the previous one. - Stability: Server crashes, clientside lua errors, bugs, glitches, performance issues, and obvious prediction errors would all give you a lower score here. Your thoughts? Judges shouldn't be required to all get together to test gamemodes. We've already established that central testing servers are a bad idea. Just have them play on the developers' servers during the "judging" period, and they can score gamemodes at their own leisure. This way we could have a larger pool of judges (say a maximum of 20-ish?) then if some want to drop out they can. In the odd event that there are prizes, they should be held by a single trusted party, like a moderator or facepunch or something. I'm probably getting optimistic thinking that Garry would give a damn.

[QUOTE=Acecool;46942751]Your feelings about me are wrong... I wouldn't be a bad judge. Everyone has their own coding style, I understand that but I'd dock points if someone uses ply everywhere and then pl in other places, etc... ( unless it makes sense, ie referencing more than one player and it is done everywhere else ) or if they don't tab with at least 1 space and leave multiple ends on 1 column, etc... Consistency is good; I'd also look for ways to optimize, etc.. I wouldn't "take it out" on anyones code... I have my own style, so does everyone else ( also why my Lua class is going to be available in many different styles; and why I let Zerf use "gmod standards" on my dev-base... I'm open minded ).[/QUOTE] Why are you suddenly a judge? Why do you get to see anyone's code? That is bizarre. [editline]15th January 2015[/editline] the goal is for garrysmod to see creativity and new fun not for a coding quality jerkoff [editline]16th January 2015[/editline] I would be completely okay with FP moderators privately discussing which gamemodes they think are better and coming to a conclusion with a paragraph explaining why they decided as they did. [editline]16th January 2015[/editline] all of this dramatizing of it is a huge turnoff, and is exactly why i was hoping niandra would manage the details

[QUOTE=bitches;46944360]Why are you suddenly a judge? Why do you get to see anyone's code? That is bizarre. [editline]15th January 2015[/editline] the goal is for garrysmod to see creativity and new fun not for a coding quality jerkoff [editline]16th January 2015[/editline] I would be completely okay with FP moderators privately discussing which gamemodes they think are better and coming to a conclusion with a paragraph explaining why they decided as they did. [editline]16th January 2015[/editline] all of this dramatizing of it is a huge turnoff, and is exactly why i was hoping niandra would manage the details[/QUOTE] I'm not a judge? I said I wouldn't mind being one but unfortunately due to my health issues I'm not reliable. Someone mentioned that I'd probably be a stickler with how code is written because I mentioned the code should be uniform throughout the game-mode and I responded with the fact that I wouldn't penalize someone for any standard they decide on; we all code differently.

What's GCC in tl;dr words?

No one has any idea what is happening. I think we should make a few polls to get everyone's opinion.

[QUOTE=Netheous;46945173]What's GCC in tl;dr words?[/QUOTE] Gamemode coding contest, usually hosted by Grea$eMonkey annually, sometimes by garry. Last year's GCC went wrong due to poor organization from undefined ( mainly due to shitty themes being voted on by people and his disappearance ), _Kilburn tried to salvage it, judges were meh, the rest is history.

i wanted to set up my own gcc last year (with an entirely different ruleset than you guys are used to, but i think it'd be worth it) but gmod was kinda too broken and vinh and i agreed that we should defer it to a later date. maybe this summer if things are looking better i'll be hosting my own!

I'll have a dedicated server from next week you are welcome to use. [url=http://www.soyoustart.com/en/offers/e3-sat-3.xml]Specs of server[/url]. I don't think I would be interested in judging or anything, just setting up the gamemodes and maintaining the server.