A Final Plea for a more Robust & Intelligent Server List - Developers

[QUOTE=Ott;50828271]Can I get a recap on how game mode categories are abusable?[/QUOTE] I think the claim was that turd idiots could make new categories to game the system, the same way they rename darkrp. Potential solution is to use a fixed number of categories. Then again they'll probably find a way to fuck it up regardless.

I'm stating the obvious here, but having a custom server browser wouldn't bring many new players to other gamemodes because the new players don't know there's an alternative server browser, they'll just use the existing one. Heck, the old server browser is even still there! The only way to improve the "server browser" situation is for the one that's not going to be replaced, to be replaced.

[QUOTE=Ott;50828271]Can I get a recap on how game mode categories are abusable?[/QUOTE] A server list that sorts by game modes and then puts the most popular game modes on top is the most abuse enabled system one could implement. If a gamemode is more popular, more visibility is given. If a new gamemode is created and hosted, it will get the least amount of visibility. This inequality of visibility destroys any hope for new original gamemode content from getting popular and is the reason we don't have the same amount of diversity we had when the legacy browser existed [QUOTE=NiandraLades;50827142]Well, one of the reasons it's usually shut down is because often the suggestions are abusable Like, this post got a ton of dumb ratings and I'm not sure why because it brings up a lot of good points:[/QUOTE] It isn't a very good point. This system we have now is the most abused system because unorginal content is favored by the system with more visiblity

[QUOTE=Llamalord;50828634]A server list that sorts by game modes and then puts the most popular game modes on top is the most abuse enabled system one could implement. If a gamemode is more popular, more visibility is given. If a new gamemode is created and hosted, it will get the least amount of visibility. This inequality of visibility destroys any hope for new original gamemode content from getting popular and is the reason we don't have the same amount of diversity we had when the legacy browser existed[/QUOTE] This is the server browser we have right now. I'm talking about categories for gamemodes. Roleplay, Build, Minigames, etc. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] I also think that categories should be locked down and requests to the devs should be made to add new ones.

[QUOTE=Ott;50828763]This is the server browser we have right now. I'm talking about categories for gamemodes. Roleplay, Build, Minigames, etc. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] I also think that categories should be locked down and requests to the devs should be made to add new ones.[/QUOTE] Ooh my bad, this feels like a pretty fair compromise, anyone think of a counter argument?

[QUOTE=Llamalord;50828634]It isn't a very good point. This system we have now is the most abused system because unorginal content is favored by the system with more visiblity[/QUOTE] Can you tell me why it isn't a good point? Are you sure that unorginal content is a player favorite simply because the server list or because it's what players like? My community is pretty large and most of my players simply don't want to stray from our RP servers. The server list definitely has issues but I don't think it's to blame for the exodus of older players who favored non RP gamemodes and the influx of younger players who favor RP. [QUOTE=Ott;50828763]This is the server browser we have right now. I'm talking about categories for gamemodes. Roleplay, Build, Minigames, etc. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] I also think that categories should be locked down and requests to the devs should be made to add new ones.[/QUOTE] You can still put your gamemode in categories it doesn't belong which would result in the same shitting up of the server list we see today.

Being a novice/apprentice developer, Garry's Mod is the only medium in which I feel that I can create something amazing without having to learn millions of things in addition to building stuff from the group up. I played GMod 12 and it was a whole other story. It demotivates someone new like me to actually make stuff, when I know that any gamemode I make wont be played by anyone.

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;50828889]Can you tell me why it isn't a good point? Are you sure that unorginal content is a player favorite simply because the server list or because it's what players like? My community is pretty large and most of my players simply don't want to stray from our RP servers. The server list definitely has issues but I don't think it's to blame for the exodus of older players who favored non RP gamemodes and the influx of younger players who favor RP. You can still put your gamemode in categories it doesn't belong which would result in the same shitting up of the server list we see today.[/QUOTE] DarkRP has always been popular but when 20 different versions of DarkRP dominate the top of the severlist new players aren't going to go to go look at other gamemodes, with the legacy browser darkrp and original game modes could coexist.

[QUOTE=Llamalord;50828875]Ooh my bad, this feels like a pretty fair compromise, anyone think of a counter argument?[/QUOTE] Make categories more like categories. Have a set amount of categories defined by the developers (just like addons), you can see the server's gamemodes as you would the name or map-- on the serverlist itself. For example: - Roleplay - Serious Roleplay - Party Games (things like murder, prophunt, other round-based games) In your gamemode.txt you'd just define the category. This would lead to more exposure to servers that try "new" gamemodes while still providing a sorted experience. For example, the issue you see in serious roleplaying where CW: HL2RP being the only section anyone ever goes to, even if they're looking for Stalker or Zombie roleplay. A take-all section would solve this. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/XdgpxET.png[/IMG] Possible have a way to request for more? Have the categories grabbed from a server at Facepunch, and the servers themselves gathered clientsided? Or gathered from a Facepunch API?

[QUOTE=Llamalord;50829209]DarkRP has always been popular but when 20 different versions of DarkRP dominate the top of the severlist new players aren't going to go to go look at other gamemodes, with the legacy browser darkrp and original game modes could coexist.[/QUOTE] The bigger issue IMO is that turd idiots can monopolize space in the browser just by renaming a gamemode. It causes serious issues for smaller gamemodes with only one or two servers when they have to compete with dozens of renamed DarkRP servers. The browser literally rewards people who are stupid assholes. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Kemerd;50829450]Make categories more like categories.[/QUOTE] Categories could just be built into the game and modified on updates honestly. Best way to implement then would probably be to re-purpose sv_tags which IIRC are sent along with one of the more basic queries (nobody gives a god damn about the current functionality). [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] Honestly I would just give the larger gamemodes categories of their own that can't be abused by morons.

[QUOTE=MadParakeet;50829628]The bigger issue IMO is that turd idiots can monopolize space in the browser just by renaming a gamemode. It causes serious issues for smaller gamemodes with only one or two servers when they have to compete with dozens of renamed DarkRP servers. The browser literally rewards people who are stupid assholes. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] Categories could just be built into the game and modified on updates honestly. Best way to implement then would probably be to re-purpose sv_tags which IIRC are sent along with one of the more basic queries (nobody gives a god damn about the current functionality). [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] Honestly I would just give the larger gamemodes categories of their own that can't be abused by morons.[/QUOTE] The problem with that is that server updates require more/extra effort on the developer's part-- and we'd have to wait months for an update to be released. Something that is dynamically grabbed from an API would be much better in terms of upgradability, but possibly more effort to implement on the developer side (I can see how it'd be easier just implementing it with the current sv_tags). On the note of larger gamemodes categories of their own, I might be keen to agree. However, the only issue I see is a bunch of server owners wanting to get their own Categories because "darkrp has one why cant I"-- by defining a group as "DarkRP", nobody will use the "Roleplay" category (they'd rather whine for their category) and it'll just turn into what it is now. I think broader categories (maybe some better names to be imagined or more of them, it's just a WIP) would be the best solution.

It might be useful for a server owner to need to specify the nature of their gameplay. Roleplay? Serious? Zombies Involved? Puzzle? Different flags that can be set. It would obviously be abused however. I'm thinking about my own gamemode here because it is named "SeriousRP" - but whether it is actually serious depends on how the server admins set it up, how the members of their communities behave and what items they have on their servers. How serious it is in terms of gameplay would be just as it would be with DarkRP - and the same would be true of many other gamemods. There were non-serious PERP servers, for example. It might be too much to class all DarkRP servers as non-serious roleplay. Maybe tags could play a role in sorting.

[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;50829963]It might be useful for a server owner to need to specify the nature of their gameplay. Roleplay? Serious? Zombies Involved? Puzzle? Different flags that can be set. It would obviously be abused however. I'm thinking about my own gamemode here because it is named "SeriousRP" - but whether it is actually serious depends on how the server admins set it up, how the members of their communities behave and what items they have on their servers. How serious it is in terms of gameplay would be just as it would be with DarkRP - and the same would be true of many other gamemods. There were non-serious PERP servers, for example. It might be too much to class all DarkRP servers as non-serious roleplay. Maybe tags could play a role in sorting.[/QUOTE] Tags would be more abused. All 'roleplay' servers should be categorized as Roleplay. How could this be abused? If a server doesn't have the category set in the gamemode.txt then they can be in an Uncategoried section. You guys are too worried about the small nuances of a serverlist change, the system is broke and it needs to be fixed.

[QUOTE=Llamalord;50830305]Tags would be more abused. All 'roleplay' servers should be categorized as Roleplay. How could this be abused? If a server doesn't have the category set in the gamemode.txt then they can be in an Uncategoried section. You guys are too worried about the small nuances of a serverlist change, the system is broke and it needs to be fixed.[/QUOTE] Serious roleplay is referring to HL2RP, S.T.A.L.K.E.R, etc. Any DarkRP servers wouldn't even be joined going into that category. Serious roleplay isn't referring to just how the server admins set it up, how they behave, and what items they have on their servers. It's referring to actual, serious, in-character, well thought-out standards and rules, along with a completely different gamemode set, as well. PERP is considered semi-serious, by the way. Also, I don't think it's too much class-- it's seperation that is not discriminating, but true. They're two completely different things. One is about story and character development, one is about spamming your mic, leveling up, and getting fucking rich. Putting them all into the same "Roleplay" category would be disastrious. [QUOTE=Llamalord;50830305]You guys are too worried about the small nuances of a serverlist change, the system is broke and it needs to be fixed.[/QUOTE] It's important to polish an idea(s)-- especially since all we can do is wait on the developer's yes or no.

[QUOTE=Kemerd;50830397]It's important to polish an idea(s)-- especially since all we can do is wait on the developer's yes or no.[/QUOTE] A developer is unlikely to use your exact description of the new server browser if they do implement it. The details will probably be up to them, all we can push for is the general idea.

[QUOTE=MadParakeet;50825172]None of those things really need a custom master server, but that looks like a pretty solid list. Should I just go make this and spam the gmod repo with pull requests until it's merged?[/QUOTE] Taking a quick look at the [URL="https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Master_Server_Query_Protocol"]valve wiki[/URL], I got the impression that keywords would need their own dedicated master server. I'm not sure re-purposing tags would work, without sending ALL servers to every client that requests and then doing the filtering client side, but wouldn't that be a massive waste of bandwidth? As for abuse of this kind of keyword system, you could limit the number of maximum keywords a server can have (3-ish?). RP servers will almost always have "roleplay" and "casual"/"serious" keywords, which even then is helpful for filtering. If I want to shoot zombies, but don't want zombie roleplay, or x,y,z gamemode that I've already tried, I might want to search something like [code] +keyword:zombie +keyword:horror -keyword:roleplay -gamemode:zombiesurvival[/code] The difference between this and tags is that servers that don't fit this mold completely still are there. If some guy started a new gamemode and tagged his server with "zombie" but not "horror" I still want to see it. I would also want to be careful to not absolutely blast a new gamemode with users if they're not ready for it with a "gamemode of the week" or something similar. Not only do we not have enough gamemodes being worked on for this to be viable, it could really mess up some guy serving his gamemode off his home network with a $50 junker from Goodwill Electronics (like me). I don't want to advertise before my gamemode is polished because it'll put people off when it get further along, and I'm sure a few other other devs feel the same way. While profiling user's favorites is an interesting idea, I wouldn't want to be in charge of implementing the anti-abuse system. It would probably need to be more complex than I could handle. Don't let me dissuade you though, If you can do it right it would be a nice thing to have.

[QUOTE=Apickx;50831403]Taking a quick look at the [URL="https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Master_Server_Query_Protocol"]valve wiki[/URL], I got the impression that keywords would need their own dedicated master server. I'm not sure re-purposing tags would work, without sending ALL servers to every client that requests and then doing the filtering client side, but wouldn't that be a massive waste of bandwidth? [/QUOTE] Clientside filtering is pretty much always how these things work, and that's not really a bad thing. It's more responsive and lets users actually browse the servers. What I find stupid is that every single server has to be queried individually, but that's probably not something that we can change. I'll start working on my fork. Expect something halfway between PortalGod's browser and the one currently ingame. PortalGod's was cool and I'll certainly pull stuff in from that design, but it was kind of haphazardly integrated IMO. I'll do manual queries because I need them for this to be sexy enough, but I'll automatically fall back on garry's API if necessary. All this talk of categories and tags is cool but there isn't a whole lot to do without functionality being implemented in Gmod itself, so I'll hold off on that.

[QUOTE=MadParakeet;50826265]I doubt it will. I don't think anything will. The best thing we can do is give people a [B]good [/B]tool to find servers instead of the mess we have now that pushes generic DarkRP shit to the top. Using favorites as a metric sounds cool but it would require a new master server. I don't think it would differ that much from sorting by player count.[/QUOTE] As much as everyone hates it. But if the community wants DarkRP shouldn't that be shown to them? As shitty as the server browser may be theres other factors to consider too that are reasons why gamemodes take off and others don't.

[QUOTE=MadParakeet;50831785]Clientside filtering is pretty much always how these things work, and that's not really a bad thing. It's more responsive and lets users actually browse the servers. What I find stupid is that every single server has to be queried individually, but that's probably not something that we can change. I'll start working on my fork. Expect something halfway between PortalGod's browser and the one currently ingame. PortalGod's was cool and I'll certainly pull stuff in from that design, but it was kind of haphazardly integrated IMO. I'll do manual queries because I need them for this to be sexy enough, but I'll automatically fall back on garry's API if necessary. All this talk of categories and tags is cool but there isn't a whole lot to do without functionality being implemented in Gmod itself, so I'll hold off on that.[/QUOTE] remember python (1320)'s implementation exists and is great

[QUOTE=zerf;50831880]remember python (1320)'s implementation exists and is great[/QUOTE] It looks truly god tier and I will certainly take a look at the code and install it for my personal use, but I'm pretty sure garry would fly off the handle if we tried to convince him to bin his entire menu. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Keosan;50831879]As much as everyone hates it. But if the community wants DarkRP shouldn't that be shown to them? As shitty as the server browser may be theres other factors to consider too that are reasons why gamemodes take off and others don't.[/QUOTE] People will still be able to find their DarkRP servers. It's not like anyone wants to design a new browser to kill DarkRP. Personally I think the claims that the current list kills new gamemones are pretty greatly exaggerated. [B]Regardless[/B], the current server browser is objectively one of the worst things known to man.

[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;50828889]You can still put your gamemode in categories it doesn't belong which would result in the same shitting up of the server list we see today.[/QUOTE] Why would anyone do this? It would only hurt their player join rates because people usually ignore what they're not looking for. There's no incentive to do this as long as you can only pick one category. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] Reminder that valve's master server still relays tags, it's just "workshopid:132152412" when your gamemode is downloaded from the workshop. We can easily expand it to have a category name (that's ignored if it's not on the whitelist).

Why not put tags in the <gamemode>.txt in in garrysmod/gamemodes/<mygamemode> (With the name, default workshop, etc...)? It's more where they belong.

I've been thinking about this thread a lot and it definitely has some cool idea. What you need to remember though, like actual servers, is that no one wants to join something which is empty. If someone does, what happens is they'll stick around for a few minutes and disconnect I don't think a different type of server browser is going to change this attitude? Because of that, I'm a bit skeptical to how effective alternatives will actually be One way we used to populate my TTT server is the regulars would join to warm it up, randomers would take interest and after an hour the ball would get rolling, there'd be 20+ people on - not sure how well this method would work on the current server browser and would definitely be better with categories/suggestions here but not everyone is going to have the energy or resources to do that constantly So yeah, I think that needs to be kept in mind when it comes to ideas. Any suggestions that revolve around sticking all RP edits/gamemodes in one area has my full support though honestly

[QUOTE=NiandraLades;50832823]I've been thinking about this thread a lot and it definitely has some cool idea. What you need to remember though, like actual servers, is that no one wants to join something which is empty. If someone does, what happens is they'll stick around for a few minutes and disconnect I don't think a different type of server browser is going to change this attitude? Because of that, I'm a bit skeptical to how effective alternatives will actually be One way we used to populate my TTT server is the regulars would join to warm it up, randomers would take interest and after an hour the ball would get rolling, there'd be 20+ people on - not sure how well this method would work on the current server browser and would definitely be better with categories/suggestions here but not everyone is going to have the energy or resources to do that constantly So yeah, I think that needs to be kept in mind when it comes to ideas. Any suggestions that revolve around sticking all RP edits/gamemodes in one area has my full support though honestly[/QUOTE] Maybe, if you hover over a server it shows the populous of the server, so that people know that it gets populated, the best times to play and what not.

[QUOTE=orc;50832955]Maybe, if you hover over a server it shows the populous of the server, so that people know that it gets populated, the best times to play and what not.[/QUOTE] That would keep require someone to keep track of all the servers, and again you would have "no data" for new gamemodes, potentially putting players off.

[QUOTE=Apickx;50832994]That would keep require someone to keep track of all the servers, and again you would have "no data" for new gamemodes, potentially putting players off.[/QUOTE] Well of course not right off the bat.

Robotboy, what are the political implications of switching the default server browser to one made by a community developer? Would it be allowed to go ahead, or are we all barking up the wrong tree?

[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;50835100]Robotboy, what are the political implications of switching the default server browser to one made by a community developer? Would it be allowed to go ahead, or are we all barking up the wrong tree?[/QUOTE] Which implementation by what developer?

[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;50835100]Robotboy, what are the political implications of switching the default server browser to one made by a community developer? Would it be allowed to go ahead, or are we all barking up the wrong tree?[/QUOTE] RobotBoy hasn't even posted in this thread, he is avoiding it because he knows we all want browser changes but is trying everything to not do it. (puts it in the "too hard basket")

[QUOTE=Llamalord;50835619]Which implementation by what developer?[/QUOTE] Well, any. There's obviously a reason for the non-movement on this issue, I was just curious as to what it was. Maybe there are higher priority items on the todo list. That would be understandable...