there's much worse things you can do then make a shitty escape menu. it's more of an annoyance then an issue.
[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;50342835]there's much worse things you can do then make a shitty escape menu. it's more of an annoyance then an issue.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, like I was saying - not really worth the devs time/effort in comparison to the many other things that could be improved in GMod. Block it yourself using even more hacky methods if you find it [b]that[/b] annoying I guess.
[b]Edit:[/b] Or, even better: Don't play on the servers with the shitty escape menu overrides. Those servers probably suck anyway, especially to the average FP user posting in this thread who can block it themselves.
Sucks that we have to deal with it, but like you said there are much worse/annoying things.
[QUOTE=jackool;50342846]Yeah, like I was saying - not really worth the devs time/effort in comparison to the many other things that could be improved in GMod. Block it yourself using even more hacky methods if you find it [b]that[/b] annoying I guess.
[b]Edit:[/b] Or, even better: Don't play on the servers with the shitty escape menu overrides. Those servers probably suck anyway, especially to the average FP user posting in this thread who can block it themselves.
Sucks that we have to deal with it, but like you said there are much worse/annoying things.[/QUOTE]
What, should we just accept the situation and stop talking about it altogether because there are worse things? What if one of the GMod devs wants to take a look at it. Should they just leave it because there are worse things?
[QUOTE=FPtje;50343114]What, should we just accept the situation and stop talking about it altogether because there are worse things? What if one of the GMod devs wants to take a look at it. Should they just leave it because there are worse things?[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't really think it's worth the time/effort compared to the million other things that could be worked on. Is it really something that needs to be changed [i]right now[/i]?
If the ability to forcibly close the escape menu via Lua remains (whether function or console command), there will be various ways to detect the escape menu being open and then close it.
People have already used it as a "feature" (albeit used it in shitty ways), and are selling it on ScriptFodder.
The ability to do it has been around and known for at least 5~ years and I haven't seen anyone really care about it until now. In fact, people in the threads I linked seemed happy about it.
It's just people customizing a menu. Is it really all that bad?
I mean, someone could override and make a shitty broken chatbox. Sure, the escape menu has more vital functions than the chatbox, but maybe the player should be the one to decide whether they like it and if not just don't play on that server.
Why does Garry's opinion regarding it even matter (referring to your previous post)? Garry doesn't really seem to care about GMod anymore. Too focused on Rust, other projects, and his kids. The community's opinion should matter, not his.
Besides, Garry's opinion was usually stubborn and not always for the best. Heck, Garry permabanned me for apparently being Seth because I released a gamemode (look at my events log), and even doxxed Seth back then. Do those seem like bright ideas to you?
If a developer wants to add an option to prevent the escape menu from being forcibly closed, or add an official way to customize it and a convar to turn it off then so be it.
No one is going to appose that. But it's definitely not something that needs immediate attention. I really doubt your average GMod user even cares, to be frank.
I don't think the ability should be blocked completely though, seeing as it's being used as a feature now - even if that was not intended.
I'm not saying "Fuck it. Alright time to move on!". I'm just laying out the various points of view. It just doesn't seem like big enough of a deal to matter, in my opinion - and that's what I was agreeing with.
I don't really play on random GMod servers so I'm not annoyed by it anyway. Just my two cents. Like I said, the community's opinion should be what matters - not just Garry's (old) opinion.
It's a function that is used wrong, how many other functions can be used wrong and cause unwanted side effects? Should we put up baby gates in all the code because a server owner could abuse it? If a server blocks your way to leave why would you want to disable that and continue playing on that server? If you get auto banned for opening the console why would you want to be on that shit server?
Servers have deleted all data folder files and filled it with shit.
Servers can run render.EndBeam making you restart the game.
Servers can crash your game, spam http, play really loud music, put gore on your screen.
You can do bad things if you use it not how it was intended, should a few bad eggs really ruin otherwise goos functions?
[QUOTE=highvoltage;50343355]If a server blocks your way to leave why would you want to disable that and continue playing on that server?[/QUOTE]
Because you can't leave
[B]Edit: [/B]highvoltage said "If a server blocks your way to leave". ALT+F4 is a way to leave, so is closing the game.
[B]Edit #2: [/B]Sorry, just trying to be logical, I think it's a fantastic idea to have functions able to do stuff like that, but obviously with limitations (such as the function not being able to stop you from leaving without pressing Alt+F4, which is usually never pressed unless something goes REALLY wrong)
[QUOTE=MPan1;50343363]Because you can't leave[/QUOTE]
Alt +F4
[QUOTE=MPan1;50343363]Because you can't leave
[B]Edit: [/B]highvoltage said "If a server blocks your way to leave". ALT+F4 is a way to leave, so is closing the game.[/QUOTE]
There are a number of ways to exit the game.
I'm sure there are also a number of different ways to prevent players from exiting, like locking the game up and possibly their computer.
I also didn't say to leave a server that you can't leave. I said if a server wanted to be a dick and block your menu then they could do a lot worse things that you can't prevent. So why block a potentially useful feature because of a bad server? But I already stated that.
It's not a useful feature when pretty much every escape menu replacement is terribly annoying to use.
[QUOTE=MPan1;50343363]Because you can't leave
[B]Edit: [/B]highvoltage said "If a server blocks your way to leave". ALT+F4 is a way to leave, so is closing the game.[/QUOTE]
you can also create a "disconnect" bind in the menu just in case the console is blocked, there really are many easy ways to get past it :v:
I think you guys are looking at things the wrong way really. Or maybe I'm the one who looks at things the wrong way, you decide. Prepare for a wall of text.
I threw a basic tl;dr at the bottom if you don't feel like reading my long boring rant.
[QUOTE=highvoltage;50343355]It's a function that is used wrong, how many other functions can be used wrong and cause unwanted side effects? Should we put up baby gates in all the code because a server owner could abuse it? If a server blocks your way to leave why would you want to disable that and continue playing on that server? If you get auto banned for opening the console why would you want to be on that shit server?
Servers have deleted all data folder files and filled it with shit.
Servers can run render.EndBeam making you restart the game.
Servers can crash your game, spam http, play really loud music, put gore on your screen.
You can do bad things if you use it not how it was intended, should a few bad eggs really ruin otherwise goos functions?[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Not only that, what even defines a function "being used wrong/bad"? It's not like the wiki says "Don't use this function to do x thing!", and if it did that would be utterly stupid.
Isn't the entire point of this game to be creative and mod it in whatever way you feel, as long as it's not malicious?
Maybe there's someone out there that wants to play on a server playing screamo music with a goatse HUD and non functioning chat. You may find it annoying, but someone else may not.
Who knows. I mean we have that [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1459450]absolutely incredible fprp community gamemode[/url] which has similar "features". Is that gamemode wrong too then?
It shouldn't be seen as "being used wrong" and shouldn't be restricted. If that was the case, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puu1QI5fphM]goofy stuff like this[/url] wouldn't have been possible.
In my opinion, the only case of "being used wrong" is when someone is doing something malicious like deleting all your data files, http "dos attacks", or abusing some exploit maliciously (like rebinding your keys or abusing Valve's shitty spray system).
Also if something is coded poorly and crashes the game. That's using it incorrectly/badly. But by no means is that malicious or wrong per se. That's just shitty code. Why waste time adding failsafes for [i]every[/i] method of crashes?
That's what I see as "being used wrong". There is quite a difference between that versus using something not as intended.
The definition of "wrong" is: not correct/true, unjust, dishonest, immoral. Why is customizing/replacing the main menu any of those?
People are just modding the game, not trying to spread a freaking virus or messing with your config. Why is customizing something like that incorrect in any sense?
Just because Garry said it could be used to prevent leaving the server, doesn't mean that it's malicious/wrong (besides, you can do this other ways, which I'll get to in a moment).
It only means it's not being used as intended, meaning it isn't being used as planned/originally thought. Which brings me to another point.
OK sure, it isn't being used as intended. But that's how programming works. Finding creative ways to do something is part of the fun!
HUDPaint wasn't intended for wallhacks, SetEyeAngles wasn't intended for making an aimbot. Does that mean they are being "used wrong"? No, not really.
Why restrict something unless it's being used for bad, malicious purposes? A convar to prevent something from happening is fine (eg cl_preventmainmenuclose), that's different and that's not my point here.
But why completely block/restrict something unless it's being used for actually malicious/bad purposes? If there isn't an official way to do something, is using a hacky method really that bad?
Using hacky/quirky methods to do something is kind of naturally apart of Source engine modding. It's a part of game development. Furthermore, it's a part of programming anything.
Again, a convar to prevent something is fine, or adding an official method of doing something and preventing hacky methods is fine. But completely blocking/limiting something useful seems stupid to me.
[QUOTE=MPan1;50343363]Because you can't leave[/QUOTE]
There are other ways of preventing the player from leaving via the escape menu, some are easier than this.
For example, you could just return false in HUDShouldDraw - which ends up breaking the escape menu after you try to bring up the chat.
Or you could just pop open a DFrame and keep pushing it to the front in the panel's Think. Even more annoying.
Besides, look at [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puu1QI5fphM]that video above[/url] - GMod Tower blocked the escape menu as a joke. Which brings me back to my point, was that really "being used wrong"?
If so, why exactly is it "wrong"? Sure, it's not being used as intended and it may be annoying. But is it really wrong? Is it causing harm to the user's computer? Is it making them jump off a cliff in real life? No.
There are a ton of other ways to close the game without the escape menu. In which you'll probably respond "But some kiddo might not know how to do it!".
I knew how to alt + f4, use task manager, or just alt tab and right click > close the game when I was like 11 years old. I remember doing it on old elementary school computers when we used CRT monitors.
Worst case scenario you have some kid running around asking people how to close the game. Big whoop.
If you don't like something on a server, or find it annoying - that doesn't mean it's wrong. You might think the server sucks, but someone else might not.
Maybe my way of viewing things is skewed. But outside the realm of GMod using something a different way than intended has resulted in awesome things.
You think Unity was meant for huge open world games like Rust? Not really. [url=https://garry.tv/2014/04/07/unity-viewmodels/]It required tricks/hacks[/url] - like dealing with precision issues.
However, I very much believe the community and their majority input should come first. It's how GMod got this far to begin with.
So if most people think you shouldn't be able to forcibly close the main menu or something, that takes priority.
I just think it's weird to restrict something like that. Or as discussed two pages back, not adding a feature like socket support just because it can be "used wrong".
[QUOTE=FPtje;50343781]It's not a useful feature when pretty much every escape menu replacement is terribly annoying to use.[/QUOTE]
[i][b]Oh no![/b][/i] A server is using something in an annoying way. Why does the escape menu matter in that regard? They can just pop a frame up of meatspin and screamo music. How is that any less annoying?
Like I said, a user configurable option to prevent something is fine. But outright removing/restricting something because it can be used in an annoying way is stupid. Especially something that is already being used actively.
[b]Tl;dr
• There is a big difference between using something not as intended vs. using something badly/incorrectly vs. using something maliciously/wrongly.
• Using something not as intended (or doing something in a "hacky way") can result in awesome things that may not be possible otherwise.
• Annoying servers are shitty. There's a lot of ways a server can be annoying outside of replacing the escape menu, come on now. I gave some examples above.
• A convar to prevent something from happening (eg cl_preventmainmenuclose) or adding official ways to do something and deprecating/removing hacky ways is fine. That's different and isn't my point.
My point is that there is no reason to remove/block something unless it can be used maliciously/exploited or was previously deprecated because of better methods.
"It's annoying", "It can crash the game if done wrong", "People use it incorrectly", etc. are plain bad reasons.[/b]
Alright, you may be right on replacing the escape menu.
But what about blocking the console? Blocking the console is malicious. A server may want to push their shitty escape menu on people, but there's no excuse to fuck with the console.
[QUOTE=FPtje;50344011]Alright, you may be right on replacing the escape menu.
But what about blocking the console? Blocking the console is malicious. A server may want to push their shitty escape menu on people, but there's no excuse to fuck with the console.[/QUOTE]
The same thing can still apply. What if someone wants to re-make that Console 2.0 Garry made and ditched during GMod 13 development into their server? That could be a cool feature if done right.
Although some commands would be blocked (the blacklisted ones, like you couldn't run 'bind').
The servers I've joined with a custom main menu still allowed me to open my regular console though. So again, I think that's more up to the server being shit or not.
I don't think the functionality should be removed though. It's up to the modder to do it right. A shit server could decide to just crash/lock up your game whenever on your first or 25th key press. It doesn't mean they should or will.
But hey, that's just my opinion. And as I said, the best way to solve it would be a convar that prevents the functions/commands that allow you to hide the main menu/console. Not to remove the functionality completely. That's all I'm really saying here.
All in all, I think it should be completely up to the server anyway. Blocking the console isn't malicious. It's still one of those annoying things really. A bad server is just that - it's bad. People shouldn't play on it.
But if people do play on it, maybe that's how they like it.
[QUOTE=jackool;50344043]The same thing can still apply. What if someone wants to re-make that Console 2.0 Garry made and ditched during GMod 13 development into their server? That could be a cool feature if done right.
The servers I've joined with a custom main menu still allowed me to open my regular console though. So again, I think that's more up to the server being shit or not.
I don't think the functionality should be removed though. It's up to the modder to do it right. A shit server could decide to just crash/lock up your game whenever on your first key press. It doesn't mean they should or will.
But hey, that's just my opinion. And as I said, the best way to solve it would be a convar that prevents the functions that allow you to hide the main menu. Not to remove the functionality completely. That's all I'm really saying here.
All in all, I think it should be up to completely the server anyway. Blocking the console isn't really malicious. It's still one of those annoying things really. A bad server is just that - it's bad. People shouldn't play on it.
But if people do play on it, maybe that's how they like it.[/QUOTE]
The console cannot be replaced by a clientside script sent by the server, unless a way is found to get around the blocked convars. At that point you have an even more serious problem. As such, replacing or outright blocking the console remains malicious.
So the modder [I]cannot[/I] do it right. There is no API for it. Since a console replacement [I][U]cannot[/U][/I] be made, the only possible reason to block the console is to prevent clients from doing something. That makes blocking the console [I]necessarily[/I] malicious.
[QUOTE=FPtje;50344071]The console cannot be replaced by a clientside script sent by the server, unless a way is found to get around the blocked convars. At that point you have an even more serious problem. As such, replacing or outright blocking the console remains malicious.
So the modder [I]cannot[/I] do it right. There is no API for it. Since a console replacement [I][U]cannot[/U][/I] be made, the only reason to block the console is to prevent clients from doing something. That makes blocking the console [I]necessarily[/I] malicious.[/QUOTE]
I completely understand where you're coming from - a modder can't exactly make a full fledged [i]source engine[/i] console without external modules because of the blacklisted commands.
But even then, there is a way to do it. You're not thinking outside the box.
To me, I see this game more like a game engine really. It opens up all the useful Source engine internals to Lua.
What if you wanted to go hard and make your own bind system based on keys being pressed? Completely remake it from the ground up?
Then there is no need for those bind commands anyway because you're not using the source engine bind system anymore.
Will anyone go that far? I once made a [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfDFRlCeN8U]2D game engine including networking within GMod that did this exact thing and had it's own bind system[/url].
SethHack also did that back in the day to hide itself from the normal console command system (and it also had a custom Lua console).
So yes, it's been done before. Now we're back to the "it's hacky" thing. Is it? Why? Because Lua is slower than the built in Source counterparts? Not really a good reason.
But hey, maybe I should just be modding source engine itself at this point. However, the GMod playerbase is so large - and Lua makes things fast and easy productivity wise.
I don't have time to make a source engine mod. It's going to take a lot longer to get the same amount of stuff done. And everyone already owns GMod.
I don't speak for everyone either. I completely understand your point of view as well. Most servers just smash a bunch of ScriptFodder addons in a server and call it good.
Smash in addons that prevent you from playing the game how you like to play it. Which is also part of this game, playing how you like to play.
But I see things from a "I can remake everything, this is basically a game engine, there is no limits" point of view. Unlike most server owners.
But again, like I said last page... this is all just stuff that could go in the F1 - F4 menu keys anyway. This is just my opinion on being able to modify the escape menu and console.
People can disagree, and that's perfectly fine! That's why I said majority community input comes first.
It's what makes this game awesome, seeing the community change it - even if it's cluttered with ScriptFodder addons and super generic servers with a semi-broken master server now in days.
[QUOTE=jackool;50344156]I completely understand where you're coming from - a modder can't exactly make a full fledged [i]source engine[/i] console without external modules because of the blacklisted commands.
But even then, there is a way to do it. You're not thinking outside the box.
To me, I see this game more like a game engine really. It opens up all the useful Source engine internals to Lua.
What if you wanted to go hard and make your own bind system based on keys being pressed? Completely remake it from the ground up?
Then there is no need for those bind commands anyway because you're not using the source engine bind system anymore.
Will anyone go that far? I once made a [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfDFRlCeN8U]2D game engine including networking within GMod that did this exact thing and had it's own bind system[/url].
SethHack also did that back in the day to hide itself from the normal console command system (and it also had a custom Lua console).
So yes, it's been done before. Now we're back to the "it's hacky" thing. Is it? Why? Because Lua is slower than the built in Source counterparts? Not really a good reason.
But hey, maybe I should just be modding source engine itself at this point. However, the GMod playerbase is so large - and Lua makes things fast and easy productivity wise.
I don't have time to make a source engine mod. It's going to take a lot longer to get the same amount of stuff done. And everyone already owns GMod.
I don't speak for everyone either. I completely understand your point of view as well. Most servers just smash a bunch of ScriptFodder addons in a server and call it good.
Smash in addons that prevent you from playing the game how you like to play it. Which is also part of this game, playing how you like to play.
But I see things from a "I can remake everything, this is basically a game engine, there is no limits" point of view. Unlike most server owners.
But again, like I said last page... this is all just stuff that could go in the F1 - F4 menu keys anyway. This is just my opinion on being able to modify the escape menu and console.
People can disagree, and that's perfectly fine! That's why I said majority community input comes first.
It's what makes this game awesome, seeing the community change it - even if it's cluttered with ScriptFodder addons and super generic servers with a semi-broken master server now in days.[/QUOTE]
No amount of thinking outside of any box is going to generate a justification for blocking clients' consoles. Again, here's why:
As soon as you block the console, you block features of it that [B]CANNOT[/B] be replicated in Lua. Some of them being blocked console commands, looking at engine messages and maybe even Lua error messages (I believe that _R[1] method was limited? not sure, doesn't really matter)
Now regardless of someone's creativity to attempt to make a fancy console, those features are [U]blocked[/U]. This isn't about the nice things you can do with it. It is about the [U]malicious[/U] things that necessarily follow from even [I]trying[/I] to do a nice thing with it.
Blocking the console is [U]necessarily[/U] malicious, [U]regardless[/U] of the scripter's intent to create something nice. No amount of fancy menus, glorious sound effects, animations or any other form of creativity is going to weigh up to the fact that it [U]necessarily[/U] denies clients [U]basic[/U] means to control their own system.
How about a hyperbole:
Imagine the preposterous: let's imagine there's a way for a server to block GMod from starting and allow custom C++ code to run instead. Obviously some malicious exploit. I could use your precise logic and argue that developers could do [I]amazing[/I] things with this. They could modify your entire GMod experience, create a loading screen with amazing effects. Adding a button to the main menu to join their server. You could install minigames for the main menu, fix the bugs that the GMod Devs haven't solved yet! And sure, people could do [i]annoying[/i] things like delete your files, network sensitive info, but you just shouldn't play on those servers!
In your own words:
[QUOTE=jackool;50344043]
All in all, I think it should be completely up to the server anyway.[/QUOTE]
Can you see how this logic does not hold for exploits like that?
This is not something like "that's why we can't have nice things"?
[QUOTE=FPtje;50344289]No amount of thinking outside of any box is going to generate a justification for blocking clients' consoles. Again, here's why:
As soon as you block the console, you block features of it that [B]CANNOT[/B] be replicated in Lua. Some of them being blocked console commands, looking at engine messages and maybe even Lua error messages (I believe that _R[1] method was limited? not sure, doesn't really matter)
Now regardless of someone's creativity to attempt to make a fancy console, those features are [U]blocked[/U]. This isn't about the nice things you can do with it. It is about the [U]malicious[/U] things that necessarily follow from even [I]trying[/I] to do a nice thing with it.
Blocking the console is [U]necessarily[/U] malicious, [U]regardless[/U] of the scripter's intent to create something nice. No amount of fancy menus, glorious sound effects, animations or any other form of creativity is going to weigh up to the fact that it [U]necessarily[/U] denies clients [U]basic[/U] means to control their own system.
How about a hyperbole:
Imagine the preposterous: let's imagine there's a way for a server to block GMod from starting and allow custom C++ code to run instead. Obviously some malicious exploit. I could use your precise logic and argue that developers could do [I]amazing[/I] things with this. They could modify your entire GMod experience, create a loading screen with amazing effects. Adding a button to the main menu to join their server. You could install minigames for the main menu, fix the bugs that the GMod Devs haven't solved yet! And sure, people could do [i]annoying[/i] things like delete your files, network sensitive info, but you just shouldn't play on those servers!
In your own words:
Can you see how this logic does not hold for exploits like that?[/QUOTE]
Blocking a user from viewing and using the basic console functionality isn't even comparable to loading custom C++ modules on clients. That's laughable and a terrible comparison.
[b]Oh man[/b], you can't view the default console output (something that should probably have a hook anyway) and you can't run a bunch of blacklisted commands that your average GMod player won't be running anyway (the options menu usually runs them).
Real malicious, so many exploits. Looks like it's time to load up a custom module, upload/download files on the server, and spread *cough* exploit 2.0 because we [i]blocked and replaced the default console[/i]. Just no, real funny.
Regardless of that sarcasm, how can you compare replacing the default console to loading custom C++ modules on the client. That's such a dumb comparison.
You can give the client a HORRIBLE, computer destroying virus or setup a hidden keylogger with a custom C++ module VERY easily. That's some very dangerous, extremely malicious stuff. And a really bad comparison to simply blocking the console from opening.
You can't give the client a virus by blocking the damn Source engine console. All it does is prevent them from seeing the console's output and prevents running some console commands that usually the default Source options menu runs anyway.
In that regard, you shouldn't be able to block the escape menu either - because it prevents your average GMod player from changing crap like their mouse sensitivity without using the default console (because a normal player changes that in the options menu).
You literally have two reasons in your post as to why we shouldn't allow a custom Lua console:
[QUOTE=FPtje;50344289]
looking at engine messages and maybe even Lua error messages (I believe that _R[1] method was limited? not sure, doesn't really matter)
[/quote]
Easily solved with a hook that lets you receive messages outputted to the console. It doesn't even need to output everything, just Lua related output and important Source errors.
[QUOTE=FPtje;50344289]
As soon as you block the console, you block features of it that [B]CANNOT[/B] be replicated in Lua. Some of them being blocked console commands
[/quote]
Your average GMod player will only be using [b]very few[/b] of the blocked console commands.
[url=https://wiki.garrysmod.com/page/Blocked_ConCommands]Looking at the list[/url], the only commands an average player would be using are probably "bind", "exec", "alias", and maybe like "voice_enable" and "clear".
The majority of the rest are usually ran via the default Source options menu, a button on the main menu, or are almost never used. And like I said above: In that regard, we probably shouldn't even allow blocking the main menu then.
Even so, most people have their binds setup before joining a server - as MaximLaHaxim said above you can just bind any commands you'll be using before joining (like disconnect or whatever).
I have no idea what made you compare replacing the console with loading a C++ module but that's not a good comparison at all.
All things aside, looking at it from your average GMod player's perspective, we probably shouldn't allow replacing either of them. My opinion was from my own perspective as a developer though.
I don't really care either way. I don't even replace either menu, I'm just ranting because there is a lot of ways to view it from, and I decided it's time to throw different ways of seeing things in here and use FP a bit more than I used to.
But that comparison you gave me is pretty bad and I'm not sure how it's even relevant. Apparently people are already blocking the console, it's not the end of the world, and I don't see anyone complaining aside from in this thread.
I also am still sticking to what I said last page, that it's not even worth the GMod dev's time/effort. The functions and console commands are currently there to hide the menus. It's more of a minor annoyance, not the end of the world.
Either keep them, remove them, or add a convar to prevent them. It's not even a big deal.
[QUOTE=jackool;50344531]That's laughable and a terrible comparison.
[/QUOTE]
I hoped so much that when I explicitly stated that it was a hyperbole, that it would come across as exactly that: a hyperbole. The hyperbole, portraying some preposterous situation, demonstrates that the logic you used does not discriminate between something you would consider an exploit (arbitrary code execution) and something you do not (console blocking).
I'm not comparing the two exploits. I'm taking your logic and I apply it to the preposterous to demonstrate that your logic does not hold. Exploits are to be assessed by the bad things that can be done with them, not the good things.
Take this generic sentence, which is what I understood to be a summary of your defense:
[B]X[/B] should not be removed because developers can create amazing things with [B]X[/B].
Then substitute [B]X[/B] with the following two things:
- The ability to block the console from opening
- The ability to install arbitrary C++ code on clients that will run on startup
Note how the argument of taking someone's logic and applying it to two [I]different[/I] situation, is not a comparison between those two situations. It's an attack on the logic by applying it to a hypothetical situation. My argument comes down to the following:
Even though the hypothetical situation is preposterous, your logic would still defend it.
[QUOTE=jackool;50344531]All things aside, looking at it from your average GMod player's perspective, we probably shouldn't allow replacing either of them. My opinion was from my own perspective as a developer though.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I've been reasoning about the client's perspective, because that's where the bad stuff happens. The developer's perspective is where the enthusiasm, creativity and all that shit happens. Like in the hyperbolic situation, the developer's perspective is not what matters. The exploit bit is.
The server should have about as much control over my console as it does over my installation of Windows. They can write some things to it that I can read, but they have no right whatsoever to get rid of it altogether. I need it to control the basics of my game. Servers should not be able to tamper with that ability.
[QUOTE=FPtje;50344611]I hoped so much that when I explicitly stated that it was a hyperbole, that it would come across as exactly that: a hyperbole. The hyperbole, portraying some preposterous situation, demonstrates that the logic you used does not discriminate between something you would consider an exploit (arbitrary code execution) and something you do not (console blocking).
I'm not comparing the two exploits. I'm taking your logic and I apply it to the preposterous to demonstrate that your logic does not hold. Exploits are to be assessed by the bad things that can be done with them, not the good things.
Take this generic sentence, which is what I understood to be a summary of your defense:
[B]X[/B] should not be removed because developers can create amazing things with [B]X[/B].
Then substitute [B]X[/B] with the following two things:
- The ability to block the console from opening
- The ability to install arbitrary C++ code on clients that will run on startup
Note how the argument of taking someone's logic and applying it to two [I]different[/I] situation, is not a comparison between those two situations. It's an attack on the logic by applying it to a hypothetical situation. My argument comes down to the following:
Even though the hypothetical situation is preposterous, your logic would still defend it.[/QUOTE]
It's like you're only taking 10% of my post into account. That's not the only thing I stated.
When you replace or block the console, all that it prevents is
A) Being able to see the default console output, which I just stated a simple fix for
B) Being able to run some blacklisted console commands while you're connected to that server. Commands that aren't even really used by your average GMod player
The logic of being able to make your own system for things like binds doesn't matter. You're sitting here making a dumb comparison. I'm not defending loading custom C++ modules on the client when you connect to a server. You can't just apply someone's logic to something utterly stupid.
It's like saying Donald Trump wants to build a wall. He could totally build that wall in GMod with props in Sandbox. What the hell does applying his logic to something completely irrelevant have to do with anything?
That's what you're doing. Comparing my logic with something completely irrelevant, AKA loading custom C++ modules. We're talking about disabling/replacing the default console here. Why apply the logic to something dumb like that?
Anyway, I don't have much else to say regarding the matter. I've said all there really is to say at this point.
[b]Edit:[/b] I guess some people care about the console [i]waaay[/i] more than me. Like not having it accessible ruins the entire game or something.
I don't even use it when I'm playing on random GMod servers. Use it to debug in my local server. The way I see it is just another key that modders can use. It doesn't even need to be a console.
Applying only one of my reasons to something silly isn't a good argument. I stated a lot more than the single piece of logic compared. Don't want these long essays filling the thread anymore though. Feel free to add me on Steam.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/hB5NMPV.png[/img]
I don't think I can make my point any clearer than I did in my last post.
[QUOTE=jackool;50344664]You can't just apply someone's logic to something utterly stupid.[/quote]
My exact point, once again, is that I [B]could[/B] in your case. I could take your logic and just apply it to something utterly stupid, without changing the logic. By doing that, I was hoping to expose the flaws in the logic. I mean it's a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum]well established[/url] method of reasoning.
I didn't read most of this but Falco, just because a person uses a bug to do something does instantly make it malicious, though it can be.
So... How's CEF?
[QUOTE=Revenge282;50344900]So... How's CEF?[/QUOTE]
I'm curious, what's CEF? [URL="http://www.cefonline.com/"]This[/URL] is what Google gave me, well that and the Central Fund of Canada Limited.
[QUOTE=MexicanR;50344944]I'm curious, what's CEF? [URL="http://www.cefonline.com/"]This[/URL] is what Google gave me, well that and the Central Fund of Canada Limited.[/QUOTE]
It stands for [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_Embedded_Framework]Chromium Embedded Framework[/url]. It's hopefully going to replace the functionality Awesomium provides.
Awesomium is based on a really old version of Chromium [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1497739&p=49554527#post49554527]which doesn't even support something in HTML 4 standards (broke my website).[/url]
Awesomium bogs GMod down a good bit. CEF might help with that. Apart from that, CEF is more up to par with today's standards while Awesomium is not.
It'll allow awesome stuff like [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1497739&p=49576437#post49576437]this[/url] and [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1497739&p=49580543&viewfull=1#post49580543]this[/url].
[QUOTE=jackool;50342846]Block it yourself using even more hacky methods if you find it [b]that[/b] annoying I guess.[/QUOTE]
2 Words. Script Enforcer
[QUOTE][b]Edit:[/b] Or, even better: Don't play on the servers with the shitty escape menu overrides. Those servers probably suck anyway.[/QUOTE]
[i]"Oh man, just stop playing on probably bad servers anyway"[/i]
This is only sidestepping the problem and I like some servers that do have those addons.
[QUOTE]Sucks that we have to deal with it, but like you said there are much worse/annoying things.[/QUOTE]
Not saying there are not more important things out there (or how important-nes is ranked) but I am saying it anyway because it bothers me and shouldn't really be possible to fuck with my Esc-menu.
One more perspsective: I can just use [B]while true do end [/B]to replicate not being able to open main menu so what is the use preventing it.
Block main menu inhibition or don't block it. It'll only be minor functional annoyance when you can no longer use esc to hide opened dialogs ingame and have to press esc twice to first hide the dialog and then hide the opened main menu.
Oh, is it that time of year again, when we need to have a useless battle for good features?
There are various legitimate ways to use ESC/console overrides, for example:
* use ESC to close various GUI windows, especially chat (when you typed something, but decided not to send)
* warn players that they will lose recently acquired in-game items if they leave now
* in Russia, we have this 'Ё' letter, and it's located right on console button, so we need a way to block it, so people can type 'Ё' in chat
If you keep playing on servers that you know are bad and block disconnection, this is only your fault.
[QUOTE=vigi8;50349814]Oh, is it that time of year again, when we need to have a useless battle for good features?
There are various legitimate ways to use ESC/console overrides, for example:
* use ESC to close various GUI windows, especially chat (when you typed something, but decided not to send)
* warn players that they will lose recently acquired in-game items if they leave now
* in Russia, we have this 'Ё' letter, and it's located right on console button, so we need a way to block it, so people can type 'Ё' in chat
If you keep playing on servers that you know are bad and block disconnection, this is only your fault.[/QUOTE]
The Russian Ë is no excuse to block the console. You can bind the console to another key. It's not the server's responsibility to deal with that issue.
[QUOTE=FPtje;50349895]The Russian Ë is no excuse to block the console. You can bind the console to another key. It's not the server's responsibility to deal with that issue.[/QUOTE]
"Ё" is default bind for console on keyboards, that contains Russian characters. When you try write ~, you console was close automatically, so how I can rebind console if I newbie in gmod for example? And how servers will rebind console key for clients? RunConsoleCommand will block "bind"...
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