[QUOTE=meharryp;52042975]-snip-[/QUOTE]
I can't even.
Oh no, we're doing the exact same thing just using another method, it's fine.
So from the looks of it, SUP aren't doing some shitty RunConsoleCommand redirecting, instead they're now proxying all traffic through their redirect servers (and somehow this makes it ok), here's a video where I alias connect:
[video]https://youtu.be/A9-yyISSQkE[/video]
Regardless, this is still redirecting, this is still scummy, and the ping still sucks:
[img]http://meharryp.xyz/s/hl2_2017-04-01_17-53-32.png[/img]
[img]http://meharryp.xyz/s/hl2_2017-04-01_17-53-55.png[/img]
[editline]a[/editline]
[img]http://meharryp.xyz/s/cmd_2017-04-01_18-01-42.png[/img]
-snip-
If he's so deep into this that he's literally proxying traffic across the world all he has to do is proxy the queries packets themselves (and modify payload where needed) and then the ping would no longer be a bullshit value and this problem is solved. Or just add some artificial delay on the responses if you want to keep DDoS garbage packets localized really..
What's stopping someone from linking two servers together with multiples of 128 players (this has been discussed and prototyped before). Would that be illegal to change the amount of players then?
[QUOTE=MeepDarknessM;52043623]What's stopping someone from linking two servers together with multiples of 128 players (this has been discussed and prototyped before). Would that be illegal to change the amount of players then?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure but I think that's a different enough case that it would have different rules.
Goodbye forever, SUP.
That does seem like what should happen if Rubat keeps his word, right? So what if the technical implementation is slightly (or even majorly) different. It's still the same crap.
The latest xkcd is relevant:
[img]https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/rayleigh_scattering.png[/img]
Who cares about the technique you're using to make a redirect server? It's still a redirect server, no reason to bring up the nitty gritty of it.
oh my god, why they just can't open a new server in other places if they want to expand
[QUOTE=gonzalolog;52043766]oh my god, why they just can't open a new server in other places if they want to expand[/QUOTE]
They aren't big enough to populate servers in every region.
EDIT:
Not a burn, just a fact.
Is it really worth fooling around with all players of GMod?
I don't think he makes that much profit out of it.
However, I don't support it either, I just don't get why he does that...
I remember a few pages ago RobotBoy had said that a fix was in-place for the crashes caused by subscribing to a larger collection.
It appears that it doesn't crash my game, but still spams the console and the download animation (EDIT: Did a few trial tests and it was able to crash my Steam at some point):
[t]https://gyazo.com/8cf18b226a392278b91ea12df64ba408.gif[/t]
Console:
[t]https://i.gyazo.com/ea35eccff1249186d6280934710cefe7.png[/t]
Was the change ever put into the main branch, or is it only accessible in dev still?
[QUOTE=kpjVideo;52044048]I remember a few pages ago RobotBoy had said that a fix was in-place for the crashes caused by subscribing to a larger collection.
It appears that it doesn't crash my game, but still spams the console and the download animation (EDIT: Did a few trial tests and it was able to crash my Steam at some point):
[t]https://gyazo.com/8cf18b226a392278b91ea12df64ba408.gif[/t]
Console:
[t]https://i.gyazo.com/ea35eccff1249186d6280934710cefe7.png[/t]
Was the change ever put into the main branch, or is it only accessible in dev still?[/QUOTE]
If only you'd bother to open the changelist for the next update which is publicly available ( and linked in many places, such as the very first post of this thread ) or even tried to test it in dev branch..
[quote=http://wiki.garrysmod.com/changelist/]Fixed a problem with the addon system when using "Subscribing to All" on a collection with items that you are already subscribed to[/quote]
[QUOTE=Robotboy655;52044155]If only you'd bother to open the changelist for the next update which is publicly available ( and linked in many places, such as the very first post of this thread ) or even tried to test it in dev branch..[/QUOTE]
Well, yes. But this occurred even when [B]none of the items in the collection were already subscribed to[/B]
I like how KingOfBeast [url=https://gist.github.com/aStonedPenguin/1ab863e27ed4cf7e3aca9a2b11c509af]links[/url] (link posted earlier in screenshot) to a conversation between RB and Stoned, but RB is perfectly reasonable. RB deserves some praise for the way he's handling this, specifically how he's staying level headed.
The excuse that it's a different method and that it doesn't spoof the protocol as it did before is irrelevant. After all, the problems with the system (i.e. deceptive ping) were not addressed.
And about this bit:
[quote=Stoned in chat log]12:20 PM - aStonedPenguin: I even asked you on multiple platforms what your ruling on anycast and related routing systems are
12:21 PM - aStonedPenguin: Considering anyone can buy a set of servers and do it
12:21 PM - aStonedPenguin: I waited nearly a week with no reply[/quote]
Try this thread (or your own) for a platform, I can guarantee that you won't have to wait that long for a reply. The people in this thread are the ones you've lost trust with. If anywhere, [I]this[/I] would be the place to try to regain that stuff. You sure as fuck won't get it back by just doing something and trying to justify it in hindsight when the outrage is already there.
You've lost trust and credibility. The outrage as soon as you do anything is the consequence. Even if you honestly believe that what you're doing is not wrong. Even if you find a way in which you'd be [I]right[/I] in that what you're doing should be OK. Just doing it without discussing it with the people who are angry with you is [I]guaranteed[/I] to cause more outrage, and rightly so.
I'm just happy that this topic doesn't have to come up ever again. Now, replace awesomium! It's the only other topic to relatedly come up and not get solved.
[QUOTE=meharryp;52042975][video=youtube;jLKnCeeAW48]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLKnCeeAW48[/video][/QUOTE]
Justify your bullshit to me daddy
[QUOTE=FPtje;52044334]I like how KingOfBeast [url=https://gist.github.com/aStonedPenguin/1ab863e27ed4cf7e3aca9a2b11c509af]links[/url] (link posted earlier in screenshot) to a conversation between RB and Stoned, but RB is perfectly reasonable. RB deserves some praise for the way he's handling this, specifically how he's staying level headed.
The excuse that it's a different method and that it doesn't spoof the protocol as it did before is irrelevant. After all, the problems with the system (i.e. deceptive ping) were not addressed.
And about this bit:
Try this thread (or your own) for a platform, I can guarantee that you won't have to wait that long for a reply. The people in this thread are the ones you've lost trust with. If anywhere, [I]this[/I] would be the place to try to regain that stuff. You sure as fuck won't get it back by just doing something and trying to justify it in hindsight when the outrage is already there.
You've lost trust and credibility. The outrage as soon as you do anything is the consequence. Even if you honestly believe that what you're doing is not wrong. Even if you find a way in which you'd be [I]right[/I] in that what you're doing should be OK. Just doing it without discussing it with the people who are angry with you is [I]guaranteed[/I] to cause more outrage, and rightly so.[/QUOTE]
People are over-reacting over the stupidest and silliest things lately. If they truly have an issue with a specific routing system (anycast routing) which is designed to achieve more reliability, scale network bandwidth and infrastructure, and increase the stability of clients from far regions for a game that has ridiculously inconsistent latency in game after 40-60 connected clients then they need to find something else to cry about.
I do feel that if this system was more available to the public then it would have less hate. I think that people are just bashing or hating because they either have no idea what it is or entails or because they just can't have it.
No, I'm not redirecting players, I am proxying them now! Data still goes through a server in their region so it's totally okay
:downs:
[editline]1st April 2017[/editline]
Oh wait auto merge.
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044494]People are over-reacting over the stupidest and silliest things lately. If they truly have an issue with a specific routing system (anycast routing) which is designed to achieve more reliability, scale network bandwidth and infrastructure, and increase the stability of clients from far regions for a game that has ridiculously inconsistent latency in game after 40-60 connected clients then they need to find something else to cry about.
I do feel that if this system was more available to the public then it would have less hate. I think that people are just bashing or hating because they either have no idea what it is or entails or because they just can't have it.[/QUOTE]
I know how it works and I'm not affiliated with any server who could benefit from it, but I don't think it should be allowed. The same goes for most of us here.
[QUOTE=LegoGuy;52044497]No, I'm not redirecting players, I am proxying them now! Data still goes through a server in their region so it's totally okay
:downs:
[editline]1st April 2017[/editline]
Oh wait auto merge.[/QUOTE]
Actual anycast routing has absolutely nothing to do with "redirecting" or "proxying" but I get the joke. I'm talking about properly using anycast. I don't know what people are accusing him of doing but it's not what I'm talking about. Sounds like drama.
[QUOTE=bobbleheadbob;52044501]I know how it works and I'm not affiliated with any server who could benefit from it, but I don't think it should be allowed. The same goes for most of us here.[/QUOTE]
As stated, if people have a problem with something that is a fundamental part of the internet because they think that it "shouldn't be allowed" or that "any server couldn't benefit from it" even though it may double or quadruple the capacity of a hosting provider to gulp large in-depth source exploits then they should rethink their priorities.
Just because a majority of "small" servers aren't being targeted with in-depth attacks or that you "don't know a server" that has this issue to the point where reliability becomes an issue doesn't mean that we can "ban it" or "forget about it".
Obviously, if there is some sort of abuse occurring then that's another question but I can't possibly see anything other than the "latency issue".
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044494]People are over-reacting over the stupidest and silliest things lately. If they truly have an issue with a specific routing system (anycast routing) which is designed to achieve more reliability, scale network bandwidth and infrastructure, and increase the stability of clients from far regions for a game that has ridiculously inconsistent latency in game after 40-60 connected clients then they need to find something else to cry about.
I do feel that if this system was more available to the public then it would have less hate. I think that people are just bashing or hating because they either have no idea what it is or entails or because they just can't have it.[/QUOTE]
"People" have every god damn right to complain when someone is consistently doing shady shit, ignoring the outrage, breaking their own god damn promises and continuing to pull shit despite the fact that they've lost [B]all[/B] trust, trying to justify it as a valid method in hindsight.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the [B][U]WAY[/U][/B] they go about this makes this outrage way bigger than it would have been otherwise. Instead of blaming "[I]people[/I]", try blaming the [I]one or two[/I] people behind this.
[editline]1st April 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044532]if people have a problem with something that is a fundamental part of the internet[/QUOTE]
Preposterous assumption, anything follows.
No one in this thread would fit your description of having a problem with something that is a fundamental part of the internet.
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044532]Actual anycast routing has absolutely nothing to do with "redirecting" or "proxying" but I get the joke. I'm talking about properly using anycast. I don't know what people are accusing him of doing but it's not what I'm talking about. Sounds like drama.
As stated, if people have a problem with something that is a fundamental part of the internet because they think that it "shouldn't be allowed" or that "any server couldn't benefit from it" even though it may double or quadruple the capacity of a hosting provider to gulp large in-depth source exploits then they should rethink their priorities.
Just because a majority of "small" servers aren't being targeted with in-depth attacks or that you "don't know a server" that has this issue to the point where reliability becomes an issue doesn't mean that we can "ban it" or "forget about it".
Obviously, if there is some sort of abuse occurring then that's another question but I can't possibly see anything other than the "latency issue".[/QUOTE]
It's like you've completely skimmed over what is actually going on before commenting :S and you seem to admit it from what you're saying about not knowing specifics about what he is being accused of.
So why bother posting if you don't understand the context?
[QUOTE=FPtje;52044562]"People" have every god damn right to complain when someone is consistently doing shady shit, ignoring the outrage, breaking their own god damn promises and continuing to pull shit despite the fact that they've lost [B]all[/B] trust, trying to justify it as a valid method in hindsight.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the [B][U]WAY[/U][/B] they go about this makes this outrage way bigger than it would have been otherwise. Instead of blaming "[I]people[/I]", try blaming the [I]one or two[/I] people behind this.
[editline]1st April 2017[/editline]
Preposterous assumption, anything follows.[/QUOTE]
I don't know what happened specifically and what promises he broke but they shouldn't try to take their anger out on a perfectly good routing system. I'd rather not try to be mad at somebody who tried taking advantage of a system since if they didn't do it then surely some other person would have.
This isn't New York where they ban tasers and blades because "somebody ruined it for everybody else" or because they do not understand it as [B]that is not a solution[/B].
I personally don't care for the drama or the outrage that occured. Drama will always happen no matter what.
My objective here is not to defend what penguin did in the past but from my understanding, people are wrongfully getting angry over stupid stuff of which they have absolutely no idea about (Anycast routing).
Anycast is quite a fundemental part of the internet. I guess that we should get rid of CDNs and anycast DNS servers now too since it confuses people and causes outrage.
If people want something to cry about, it should be something that is proper and has actual reason behind it. I understand that people may be angry at the individual and may have outrage towards him but for a game that has such an inconsitent latency in game (50-100 ms) after a certain number of players, you would think that the overall community would understand that they're just complaining about something that is a complete waste of time.
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044532]Actual anycast routing has absolutely nothing to do with "redirecting" or "proxying" but I get the joke. I'm talking about properly using anycast. I don't know what people are accusing him of doing but it's not what I'm talking about. Sounds like drama.
As stated, if people have a problem with something that is a fundamental part of the internet because they think that it "shouldn't be allowed" or that "any server couldn't benefit from it" even though it may double or quadruple the capacity of a hosting provider to gulp large in-depth source exploits then they should rethink their priorities.
Just because a majority of "small" servers aren't being targeted with in-depth attacks or that you "don't know a server" that has this issue to the point where reliability becomes an issue doesn't mean that we can "ban it" or "forget about it".
Obviously, if there is some sort of abuse occurring then that's another question but I can't possibly see anything other than the "latency issue".[/QUOTE]
The issue isn't about the method used, it really isn't. And the method might be a positive thing, I don't know.
This is about a particular person doing exactly the thing he was explicitly told not to do again, in a different way, without getting approval. So of course the threat gets executed. I don't think this should affect any other community, especially assuming other communities won't use it in an attempt to circumvent a threat.
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044613]I don't know what happened specifically and what promises he broke but they shouldn't try to take their anger out on a perfectly good routing system. I'd rather not try to be mad at somebody who tried taking advantage of a system since if they didn't do it then surely some other person would have.
This isn't New York where they ban tasers and blades because "somebody ruined it for everybody else" or because they do not understand it as [B]that is not a solution[/B].
I personally don't care for the drama or the outrage that occured. Drama will always happen no matter what.
My objective here is not to defend what penguin did in the past but from my understanding, people are wrongfully getting angry over stupid stuff of which they have absolutely no idea about (Anycast routing).
Anycast is quite a fundemental part of the internet. I guess that we should get rid of CDNs and anycast DNS servers now too since it confuses people and causes outrage.
If people want something to cry about, it should be something that is proper and has actual reason behind it. I understand that people may be angry at the individual and may have outrage towards him but for a game that has such an inconsitent latency in game (50-100 ms) after a certain number of players, you would think that the overall community would understand that they're just complaining about something that is a complete waste of time.[/QUOTE]
People aren't crying about anycast. People are complaining about Stoned's shady shit. The anycast shit just being used by SUP merely as an argument to justify this shady shit in hindsight. I don't give a rat's anal sphincter about anycast and neither should [I]anyone[/I] else in this thread, including you. What matters is that stoned put something up that for all intents and purposes does the same as redirect servers. The unicast implementation is probably because Stoned predicted that he'd (RIGHTLY) get more outrage by doing it. His main argument is that he's not using the original method anymore, not that he's specifically using this particular method.
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044613][...]
If people want something to cry about, it should be something that is proper and has actual reason behind it. I understand that people may be angry at the individual and may have outrage towards him but for a game that has such an inconsitent latency in game (50-100 ms) after a certain number of players, you would think that the overall community would understand that they're just complaining about something that is a complete waste of time.[/QUOTE]
If latency is no big deal why are his servers still reporting the wrong ping when they are queried through the server browser?
[QUOTE=John Reese;52044611]It's like you've completely skimmed over what is actually going on before commenting :S and you seem to admit it from what you're saying about not knowing specifics.
So why bother posting if you don't understand the context?[/QUOTE]
As stated, I don't know what he did or continues to do but as a person who actually has to ensure that even the saltiest and largest attack doesn't consume his network and clients, I personally don't care. It's just drama at the end of the day. I do have some context on the situation but I'd rather prefer to keep that to myself.
My issue here is that people are linking his activities with a specific system and effectively ignoring common sense because they see the person doing it.
[QUOTE=NeatNit;52044634]The issue isn't about the method used, it really isn't. And the method might be a positive thing, I don't know.
This is about a particular person doing exactly the thing he was explicitly told not to do again, in a different way, without getting approval. So, of, course the threat gets executed. I don't think this should affect any other community, especially assuming other communities won't use it in an attempt to circumvent a threat.[/QUOTE]
This isn't a children's playground. My personal and professional opinion is that a company (Facepunch Studios) shouldn't actually enforce something that they feel as incorrect or improper [B]without either very specific guidelines (such as a TOS)[/B] or a line in the sand where they state what you can't do.
From my understanding, the line in the sand went from "don't spoof players", to "don't make mirror servers" to "don't 'proxy' players". I have respect for Facepunch Studios but if they can't even make a proper statement on what they condone and do not condone then I simply don't know.
That's just my own $0.2 on the situation, though.
[QUOTE=FPtje;52044646]People aren't crying about anycast. People are complaining about Stoned's shady shit. The anycast shit just being used by SUP merely as an argument to justify this shady shit in hindsight. I don't give a rat's anal sphincter about anycast and neither should [I]anyone[/I] else in this thread, including you. What matters is that stoned put something up that for all intents and purposes does the same as redirect servers. The unicast implementation is probably because Stoned predicted that he'd (RIGHTLY) get more outrage by doing it. His main argument is that he's not using the original method anymore, not that he's specifically using this particular method.[/QUOTE]
Unless he is making multiple servers show up in the server list then I just don't understand the issue here. A redirect server was a major problem because it spammed the server listing with multiple of his servers while this one just does not (as anycast is supposed to be).
While I don't want to get involved in the drama (too late, I'm sure), it honestly just seems to be that people are more salty that penguin went "back on his word" instead of the "issue at hand" here. This goes back to the children's playground concept. At this point, it all goes back to what people don't understand then. They clearly think that what he's doing is "the same" as what he did in the past and are outraged but are clueless. I recommend that people just look this stuff up and be salty at other things.
[editline]1st April 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=zoox;52044699]If latency is no big deal why are his servers still reporting the wrong ping when they are queried through the server browser?[/QUOTE]
In game ping is always invalid. I don't know why many people just can't get this concept down. You can join a server that is right next to your house with 100 players on it and your latency would likely be in the 120-150s if not more.
Garry's Mod latency in the server browser is also off (by 20-40, very jumpy when you take an average). Regardless of all of this, that's how anycast routing works. I would recommend that you look into exactly what it is.
[B]Once this concept is a bit more public, I'm sure that people will open up to it as they have to some other concepts in the past.[/B]
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044702]I just don't understand the issue here.[/QUOTE]
Your failure to understand comes from your insane focus on the specific implementation rather than a person's behaviour. I'm going to say it again: even if what StonedPenguin is doing is genuinely not wrong, the way he's being deceptive about it, the way how he's just doing shit behind people's backs is just a cunt move, especially after having lost trust already.
Even if everything you say is right the outcry would still be valid. The server's ping in the list is deceptive. Stoned did it again without consulting anyone, only complaining afterwards with the claim that he did and that he's doing something else this time.
[QUOTE=FPtje;52044768]Your failure to understand comes from your insane focus on the specific implementation rather than a person's behaviour. I'm going to say it again: even if what StonedPenguin is doing is genuinely not wrong, the way he's being deceptive about it, the way how he's just doing shit behind people's backs is just a cunt move.
Even if everything you say is right the outcry would still be valid. The server's ping in the list is deceptive. Stoned did it again without consulting anyone, only complaining afterwards with the claim that he did and the he's doing something else this time.[/QUOTE]
I understand the concept that people are salty at penguin because they're salty at penguin. I also do understand that no matter what logic I tell them, they would most likely still be angry at penguin since they find that what he did is deceptive.
I'll try anyways however though. I'm just not sure who he's going to ask or tell but that's beyond the point. I would hope that there isn't a council or something that you talk to before you try to do things. You could say the same exact thing about my VSE Guard 2.0 service which lowers the latency (by 30-40) of the server but it's used by the majority of servers in the top 100 on Garry's Mod. By default servers also spike in terms of server browser latency. There is no outrage over it however since it's available public and also I presume is because so many people rely on it. I'm also not penguin so that probably factors into it too.
[B]My entire point here is that people are stupid and have no idea how anything works and instead get angry and look at it as him being deceptive instead of actually looking into how the game works and into much bigger issues.[/B] If people had even half an idea of how inconsistent things are (instead of crying wolf), then we would get a lot farther with making Garry's Mod even bigger and better but these childish outrages are slowing everybody including me down. I'm sure both of us could have gotten some update or project at least worked on a bit more rather than to be here debating over a silly and childish call of deception. As stated, we are supposed to be adults, not children.
[QUOTE=ertug20;52044801]I also do understand that no matter what logic I tell them, they would most likely still be angry at penguin since they find that what he did is deceptive.[/QUOTE]
What people know != what people feel.
Everyone is just overly emotional and romantic about the idea that everything should be perfectly fair.
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