Anti-Cheat Discussion Thread 2 - Developers

[QUOTE=DarKSunrise;34443746]Surely a binary module would be much more effective, but most people can't be bothered to download and install it.[/QUOTE] On the other hand trying to battle a non lua cheat with lua is a fight you just ain't gonna win.

If you want to get somewhere you should pull a angry face at garry rather then trying to make your own cpp AC.

[QUOTE=wizardsbane;34443129]Everything that comes after that is irrelevant. You are a human being and you are already at the stage placing of placing yourself at the supreme position of power in this situation. It is you who decides ban appeals and it is you who decides bans. [B]This system is asking to be fucked in the ass by your mighty, despot dick.[/B][/quote] I don't know where you come up with this stupid rubbish about fucking systems in the ass with a despot dick, but seriously stop going off topic onto a more sexual topic. [quote]In your dreams. VAC only bans to a version of the engine the game is using. With a global ban system that is easily transferred to any version of GMod, this is a life sentence.[/quote] The concept of this is like VAC, I did not mean it is exactly like VAC, anyone would have understood this, clearly you didn't. [quote]Then ban them locally.[/QUOTE] This takes the need out for always spectating people and not being able to tell if they're hacking or not, because most hackers try to stay under the radar with using tools to find people, entities such as a c4 in TTT or drugs in PERP. Why do you think I'm going to take this into my own hands and add people that are not sethhackers onto the list, I'll give you my list so you can search any of the SteamID's provided to see if they've been banned from other servers for hacking. Some of my bans also contain sethhackers username which can obivously also help you to see that they're registered on the sethhack forums and that they are a customer.

Finish your global banlist system then - Let's see how many people are willing to let a random person on the internet dictate who is banned on their own server.

[QUOTE=DrogenViech;34446032]Finish your global banlist system then - Let's see how many people are willing to let a random person on the internet dictate who is banned on their own server.[/QUOTE] You have an option to turn off banning, so it will just log it to a file saying this player is on the global sethhack list and should be watched or something along them mines, I'm not forcing people who would download this to ban the person on the list.

[QUOTE=Ruzza;34442888]I don't believe they should get a second chance, as this ruins fun on servers, destroys a fair setup gamemode giving an advantage to some stupid kid that used his mothers credit card to buy a stupid hack.[/QUOTE] No second chances, eh? I wouldn't trust a global banlist moderated by you. [url]http://easyban.net/bans/sG_|_Trouble_in_Terrorist_Town_1149[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=2438[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=2442[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=337[/url] [url]http://archives.gmodtheater.com/viewpage.php?page_id=13[/url] [url]http://sourcebans.surf-infamous.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] [url]http://bans.breakpointservers.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] (my favourite, banned for forcing sv_cheats to 1) [url]http://nnjg.site.nfoservers.com/sb/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] [url]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fSL8s-iIcOcJ:www.conjointgaming.com/sourcebans/index.php%3Fp%3Dbanlist%26advSearch%3D30%26advType%3Dadmin+&cd=25&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a[/url] [editline]29th January 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Ruzza;34446320]You have an option to turn off banning, so it will just log it to a file saying this player is on the global sethhack list and should be watched or something along them mines, I'm not forcing people who would download this to ban the person on the list.[/QUOTE] Instead of a global banlist, why not just have a list of verified SH users, where server admins can choose to add to their banlist? Then they can choose the players to be banned based on their on discretion instead of trusting some random internet person.

[QUOTE=raBBish;34446390]No second chances, eh? I wouldn't trust a global banlist moderated by you. [url]http://easyban.net/bans/sG_|_Trouble_in_Terrorist_Town_1149[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=2438[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=2442[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=337[/url] [url]http://archives.gmodtheater.com/viewpage.php?page_id=13[/url] [url]http://sourcebans.surf-infamous.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] [url]http://bans.breakpointservers.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] (my favourite, banned for forcing sv_cheats to 1) [url]http://nnjg.site.nfoservers.com/sb/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] [url]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fSL8s-iIcOcJ:www.conjointgaming.com/sourcebans/index.php%3Fp%3Dbanlist%26advSearch%3D30%26advType%3Dadmin+&cd=25&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a[/url] [editline]29th January 2012[/editline] Instead of a global banlist, why not just have a list of verified SH users, where server admins can choose to add to their banlist? Then they can choose the players to be banned based on their on discretion instead of trusting some random internet person.[/QUOTE] That's nice to know, that you have so much free time and have nothing else better to do with your life. I used to share my account with my two brothers which got in quite a bit of trouble. Plus I don't understand that concept of having a list of verified SH users?

You know I hear that "Brother" story in almost every unban request I get. And only once has it been true. tldr bullshit

[QUOTE=Bawbag;34447928]You know I hear that "Brother" story in almost every unban request I get. And only once has it been true. tldr bullshit[/QUOTE] This is not an unban request, I don't give a flying rats ass if you believe it or not.

[QUOTE=Ruzza;34447516]That's nice to know, that you have so much free time and have nothing else better to do with your life. I used to share my account with my two brothers which got in quite a bit of trouble.[/quote] 15 minutes of google, it's not really hard. And I was bored and I indeed do have free time, it's weekend you know? e: Finding your account was trivial, since... well, you're on my friendslist :v: [QUOTE=Ruzza;34447516]Plus I don't understand that concept of having a list of verified SH users?[/QUOTE] For example a thread with a list of SH users in the OP, which is updated if more users are found. Something where admins can see the usernames and SteamIDs and can add them into their own servers' banlist. e: It's also nice to know that your brothers are such cheaters. What if somebody else's brother buys and uses SH on their account and gets it banned globally? Since apparently you shouldn't be held responsible of those things, neither should the SH user's brother.

[QUOTE=raBBish;34448043]15 minutes of google, it's not really hard. And I was bored and I indeed do have free time, it's weekend you know? e: Finding your account was trivial, since... well, you're on my friendslist :v: For example a thread with a list of SH users in the OP, which is updated if more users are found. Something where admins can see the usernames and SteamIDs and can add them into their own servers' banlist. e: It's also nice to know that your brothers are such cheaters. What if somebody else's brother buys and uses SH on their account and gets it banned globally? Since apparently you shouldn't be held responsible of those things, neither should the SH user's brother.[/QUOTE] I never said it was not my responsibilty for my own account, That sv cheats ban was me when i first started fiddling with hacky parts of lua. Getting that ban made me very intrested in anti cheats so i developed my own. However my concept was that server admins would get a friendly message telling them that the user is on the global list and that they should take caution if suspected of hacking.

[QUOTE=raBBish;34448043]For example a thread with a list of SH users in the OP, which is updated if more users are found. Something where admins can see the usernames and SteamIDs and can add them into their own servers' banlist.[/QUOTE] This is still a bit harsh, honestly. It kind of reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials, because with anything like this, the list will be abused by people adding in others they don't like just to see their possible banishment on a good deal of other servers. All the evidence that can be submitted that someone is cheating is easily faked if you'd care to do so. Really, in the end, locally banning people is still the best option in terms of humility and protecting the innocent from false accusations.

Global banlist with the reason they were banned (detected a concommand or global variable that links to a hack) + ability for the people to appeal in an FP thread and explain why they were wrongfully banned. [QUOTE=raBBish;34448043]For example a thread with a list of SH users in the OP, which is updated if more users are found. Something where admins can see the usernames and SteamIDs and can add them into their own servers' banlist.[/QUOTE] And then you can have a system that automatically downloads the OP contents every 2 or 3 minutes (NOT EVERY TIME A PLAYER JOINS), parse through each newline and space, grab all the SteamID's and put them into a mysql table or a text file for your own banlist. I'm aware that not everyone agrees with a ban list, but it's for the server owners to decide whether or not they want to use a global ban list. It's for the server owners to decide whether or not they want to put all the SteamID's that you guys put on pastebin or posted publicly into their ban list.

Isn"t this thread supposed to be about Anti-Cheats, Not how to ban hackers?

I would participate in a global ban system, so long as it was with people I could trust. But that facepunch thread idea is pretty retarded. You need a better system than just parsing a facepunch thread. [QUOTE=dingusnin;34449227]Isn"t this thread supposed to be about Anti-Cheats, Not how to ban hackers?[/QUOTE] Banning is a part of anti-cheats.

[QUOTE=BlackAwps;34450644] Banning is a part of anti-cheats.[/QUOTE] It doesn't have to be, we could just want to prevent then using their hacks and profiting from the players that would normally be banned a keeping a playable environment .

[QUOTE=dingusnin;34450748]It doesn't have to be, we could just want to prevent then using their hacks and profiting from the players that would normally be banned a keeping a playable environment .[/QUOTE] If people are bypassing and running scripts they shouldn't, I don't want them on my server. Period.

[QUOTE=BlackAwps;34450793]If people are bypassing and running scripts they shouldn't, I don't want them on my server. Period.[/QUOTE] And you have a right to an opinion just as much as I do, wich is why I did not imply that they HAVE to obey my opinion, but that they don't NEED to.

[QUOTE=BlackAwps;34450644]You need a better system than just parsing a facepunch thread.[/QUOTE] So you would rather have someone host the list on their own server and have us parse it anyways? I mean if you can pay for a server to handle all the requests and the inevitable DDoS attacks then go ahead and host it. The facepunch thread way is just a ghetto way of doing it since I've seen facepunch resist several DDoS attacks before.

Newsflash: Garry has to pay for bandwidth.

[QUOTE=Hentie;34451144]So you would rather have someone host the list on their own server and have us parse it anyways? I mean if you can pay for a server to handle all the requests and the inevitable DDoS attacks then go ahead and host it. The facepunch thread way is just a ghetto way of doing it since I've seen facepunch resist several DDoS attacks before.[/QUOTE] I think he meant more along the lines of the fact that anyone could post anyones SteamID in the thread regardless of whether they're a hacker or not, then they'd be banned from any server participating.

[QUOTE=Drakehawke;34451328]I think he meant more along the lines of the fact that anyone could post anyones SteamID in the thread regardless of whether they're a hacker or not, then they'd be banned from any server participating.[/QUOTE] That's why I said to only parse the OP didn't I? [QUOTE=Bawbag;34451270]Newsflash: Garry has to pay for bandwidth.[/QUOTE] If he doesn't want to deal with the bandwidth then he can just close the thread down. Somebody has to pay if there's going to be a global ban list. Just going to repeat myself, this is just a ghetto way of hosting a global ban list. If anyone wants to volunteer a server up for hosting a global ban list, then step forward. I don't have the money to do so.

[QUOTE=Hentie;34451487]That's why I said to only parse the OP didn't I?[/QUOTE] But how would the OP know who to believe? I could post someones SteamID and say my SethHack detector caught them, when really it didn't. Sure I could spectate them and get video evidence that they're hacking, but why would I go to all that trouble just to get one user banned, sure I feel for servers who have problems with hackers, but that's a whole lot of trouble to go to just to help them get 1 user banned. I don't see many others willing to go to that much trouble either. And even then the OP could have his own personal agenda and add people he has personal issues with to the list. At the end of the day, a system like that requires a lot of trust in one person, and even if people are willing to do that, they'd still have to get valid evidence (which can be a bitch to acquire, especially if you don't have a custom spectate system, cause if I remember rightly SethHack can detect spectators), and a lot of people wont do that and will just ban them off their own server. The only way to properly beat SethHack is get garry to do something about it, i.e. getting VAC to detect it, if he could, VAC's delayed banning system would mean Seth would find it much harder to fix, and even then after the first few people start getting VAC banned, he's gonna start losing the trust of his clients. Lua anticheats are the most viable and practical option for dealing with it at the moment, the only problem is you can't really release it as it's too easy for Seth to see how you're detecting it and patch it, which means the common server owner will struggle if they don't know Lua or don't know where to start detecting it. I think what you did a couple of pages back was good Hentie, it sure helped me a lot you posting that code. If someone did that whenever SethHack was updated, and just kept posting it in this thread, people can come up with their own ways of detecting it and see when they're patched. However I'd guess it's a lot of work on your part and you've always got the malicious intentions of the SethHack community lurking around out to get you.

Some like [url=http://mcbans.com/]mcbans[/url], but for gmod would be nice.

[QUOTE=ralle105;34451714]Some like [url=http://mcbans.com/]mcbans[/url], but for gmod would be nice.[/QUOTE] I remember MCAdmin had a global ban list, and there was loads of drama about it because the creator went on servers and added their owners to the global ban list unless they gave him admin. The ban list was on by default as well, and you can imagine some kid who just got his new Minecraft server not knowing how to turn it off and ending up stuck banned from his own server.

[QUOTE=Drakehawke;34451691]But how would the OP know who to believe? I could post someones SteamID and say my SethHack detector caught them, when really it didn't. Sure I could spectate them and get video evidence that they're hacking, but why would I go to all that trouble just to get one user banned, sure I feel for servers who have problems with hackers, but that's a whole lot of trouble to go to just to help them get 1 user banned. I don't see many others willing to go to that much trouble either. And even then the OP could have his own personal agenda and add people he has personal issues with to the list.[/QUOTE] I just want to step away from my whole using facepunch to host the global ban list and head towards the idea of a global ban list. Who can we trust? Well who contributed the most in this thread so far? And what if you're not a trusted person? Then you can just deal with it and locally ban the person from your own server. The ban list is not a wikipedia page where anyone can add whoever they want. A global ban list will ban known hackers from joining your server prior to them joining your server. People trust mcbans because it has a good reputation. Who has a good reputation to host a global ban list? Trust is not an issue, you'd need to build trust.

Do what VAC does. Make it automated and have support un-ban players and give them L4D if they claim VAC was mistaken.

[QUOTE=Hentie;34451897]I just want to step away from my whole using facepunch to host the global ban list and head towards the idea of a global ban list. Who can we trust? Well who contributed the most in this thread so far? And what if you're not a trusted person? Then you can just deal with it and locally ban the person from your own server. The ban list is not a wikipedia page where anyone can add whoever they want. A global ban list will ban known hackers from joining your server prior to them joining your server. People trust mcbans because it has a good reputation. Who has a good reputation to host a global ban list? Trust is not an issue, you'd need to build trust.[/QUOTE] Whether it's done via a Facepunch thread or not, there's still plenty of ways it can be exploited and abused. No-one's going to know whether the "trusted person" is legitimately banning hackers or not, unless someone complains they're on the list when they shouldn't, but then how is it decided who is right and who isn't? The only way I can see it working is by requiring a SteamID to be submitted by several people before being added to the list. 3 server owners reporting a SteamID as a hacker is much more reliable than 1 server owner reporting it. Even then, it could be pretty easy to get around, SethHack seems to have quite a sizeable community, so 3 of them could easily get together to get someone banned who shouldn't be. So really, for it to work, you'd need some sort of website hosted by someone trustworthy, which gives well-known and trusted server owners the ability to submit their detected SteamIDs to, and maybe require a SteamID to be submitted twice before it's added to the ban list. And then of course you hit the problem of the SethHack communities love for DDoS, I doubt that website would stay up long before it was hit. At the end of the day, the point mentioned earlier is valid, Facepunch is much more likely to be able to withstand any attack than any website you or anyone else could realistically come up with. Don't get me wrong it's a good idea in theory, and in an ideal world it could work, but this isn't an ideal world and I think finding and developing methods of detecting SethHack is a much more viable solution to the problem.

[QUOTE=raBBish;34446390]No second chances, eh? I wouldn't trust a global banlist moderated by you. [url]http://easyban.net/bans/sG_|_Trouble_in_Terrorist_Town_1149[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=2438[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=2442[/url] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=337[/url] [url]http://archives.gmodtheater.com/viewpage.php?page_id=13[/url] [url]http://sourcebans.surf-infamous.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] [url]http://bans.breakpointservers.com/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] (my favourite, banned for forcing sv_cheats to 1) [url]http://nnjg.site.nfoservers.com/sb/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:1:19084184&advType=steamid[/url] [url]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fSL8s-iIcOcJ:www.conjointgaming.com/sourcebans/index.php%3Fp%3Dbanlist%26advSearch%3D30%26advType%3Dadmin+&cd=25&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a[/url] [editline]29th January 2012[/editline] Instead of a global banlist, why not just have a list of verified SH users, where server admins can choose to add to their banlist? Then they can choose the players to be banned based on their on discretion instead of trusting some random internet person.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=337[/url] was my personal favorite, normally we disregarded any ban requests which the requester broke the rules in getting the proof but it just funny [QUOTE=Ruzza;34447516]That's nice to know, that you have so much free time and have nothing else better to do with your life. I used to share my account with my two brothers which got in quite a bit of trouble. Plus I don't understand that concept of having a list of verified SH users?[/QUOTE] no you didn't

[QUOTE=slayer3032;34456673][url]http://www.exiledservers.net/showthread.php?t=337[/url] was my personal favorite, normally we disregarded any ban requests which the requester broke the rules in getting the proof but it just funny[/QUOTE] oh god I'm famous :v: