We're just talking in circles now.
We need to find a solution to the problems with current HL2RP combat, of which we all agree on. Iirc, it's down to just making no-death SWEPs with text hit & damage notifications, adding a "combat mode", and skill/buff fighting system like XCOM.
What do we do? Do we have a vote or something?
Not sure really.
One thing about that SWEP though, it could be possible to create an animation which would specify damages so that it's not simply a ragdoll or player standing when they get shot and frozen. It might just be me, but that would just look so awkward in the middle of a fight or something like that.
Examples:
Shot in arms - You visually(not physically) drop your gun, and grab your arm. Possibly crouching.
Shot in legs - You fall onto whatever leg was shot, and you roll around slightly with your character visually grabbing their leg.
Shot in torso - Laying on ground, appearing to be fading in and out.
This could be based off the area which took the majority of damage, and once the character hits the "unconscious" state, it initiates sorta like an idle animation. The player can still roleplay, but they can't move and are stuck in the idle animation till someone helps them.
Why not just do something easy and have the players go into unconscious when past a certain damage threshold.
[QUOTE=Masterofstars;44295433]Why not just do something easy and have the players go into unconscious when past a certain damage threshold.[/QUOTE]
As long as they can still RP that'd be alright.
That's another thing: What does everyone think about no perma death, and instead you just get locked out of a certain character for a certain amount of time?
okay no, i'm gonna address this because the debate cannot progress unless this is clear.
[QUOTE=Monkah;44293111] Shoot to kill, shoot to miss, rolling, RPG-style combat moves, etc. are all simply ways of avoiding roleplay because your community is too immature to roleplay combat properly.[/QUOTE]
this is wrong
wait no, I'm not stressing this enough.
[B][U][I]this is wrong[/I][/U][/B]
this is the exact shitty attitude that results in shitty admins and shitty servers. it's wrong. it really is. like, it's part of the magical thinking shit that has lead HL2RP into being what it is today. "IF YOU CAN'T SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS THROUGH RP IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE A SHIT ROLEPLAYER", come the fuck on. like, shit, it's just an issue of rivaling character progression. in a perfect universe every battle is pretty much like wrestling and the winners are already defined before the battle even happens, but no, that's not how RP works. that's not what RP is, in fact, that contradicts this
[quote]Roleplay is defined as community-wide storytelling and writing through player-controlled characters, using character development and emotions to guide said characters through the story[/quote]
[I]i agree with this.[/I] the key word here is collaborative. you have to work with people, and there's often this extremely shortsighted belief that you can chop off OOC and IC to an absolute level, and no, what you're actually doing is minimizing the impact of OOC in IC and vice versa but you cannot remove it completely, and people, and their personalities, and their emotions are at least in some way reflected in their roleplay. that is what is cool about it, it's social, through roleplay you coexist with other people, forming a community, in order to collaboratively advance a story.
where there is a community, there is struggle, there are differences. eventually two players are going to come to a point where their situation cannot be solved through mere conversation, they want different things, OOCly, and their IC characters reflect that. the usual response to this is that somebody calls for an admin to be a third party. the usual solution involves really, really long and uninteresting debates that detract from roleplay.
and it's THIS, [B]THIS THING[/B] that is the reason why people propose a combat system, to tackle THIS. that unnecessary fucking drama that happens every time somebody cannot come to terms with one another, you can solve it, by telling them, "go duke it out, whoever wins gets to be right", and you do so in a way that is actually fun. roleplay can continue from then on, what you're doing, is removing that ridiculous fucking refereeing that RP communities force their admins to do. when people disagree, it's not players being shitty, it's people being people, drama will happen, GIVE people the means to solve them.
I agree with you on that much. As much as possible should be handled ICly, admins should really only be involved with meta disputes like prop abuse or ignoring RP, not as little referees.
[editline]a[/editline]
[QUOTE=Masterofstars;44295433]Why not just do something easy and have the players go into unconscious when past a certain damage threshold.[/QUOTE]
And they should be able to roleplay that themselves. In a scenario where something is voided or it's just an OOC accident, you shouldn't have to pause everything to wait for them to return to consciousness. Plus someone might be able to mingegrab them and run off, god knows how often that happens when you go unconscious in HL2RP.
Half-Life 2: Roleplay can be an extremely good gamemode, depending on who is running it. If you get some 10 year old who can't even run the server without having script errors all over the place, and gives out weapons to basically everyone to improve roleplay, that's stupid. The gamemode is about passivness, you have to wait for Roleplay.
The Combine are frequently shown as harsh rulers over the citizens of Earth and they should bloody act like it, and not just run around the city going. "CITIZEN, HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!" for going to their ration duty,
[QUOTE=Big Bang;44295578]
and it's THIS, [B]THIS THING[/B] that is the reason why people propose a combat system, to tackle THIS. that unnecessary fucking drama that happens every time somebody cannot come to terms with one another, you can solve it, by telling them, "go duke it out, whoever wins gets to be right", and you do so in a way that is actually fun. roleplay can continue from then on, what you're doing, is removing that ridiculous fucking refereeing that RP communities force their admins to do. when people disagree, it's not players being shitty, it's people being people, drama will happen, GIVE people the means to solve them.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, for hand to hand combat, I really wouldn't mind-- but come the fuck on. We don't need OTA getting mingepunched to death-- and any PK caused over a S2K based fight is going to have more complaints than ever. "Lag", "I would have had the advantage", "He ignored that I had ____", etc.
[QUOTE=Monkah;44296022]Honestly, for hand to hand combat, I really wouldn't mind-- but come the fuck on. We don't need OTA getting mingepunched to death-- and any PK caused over a S2K based fight is going to have more complaints than ever. "Lag", "I would have had the advantage", "He ignored that I had ____", etc.[/QUOTE]
you're assuming that I want mingepunching, or an FPS shootout in any way, and, no, that's not actually what I want, it's not fitting with RP at all, in fact i'm one of the people who advocates for guns to be removed.
this is why the proposal is "combat system", not something specific. i'm leaning towards something with RPG elements but tbh for HL2RP it had to be something tailored for it. to fit the lore it'd had to use guns but not be like, "oh I shot you in the head you're dead", it'll have to balance weapon efficacy against other weapons but also the amount of people involved. the key part is making it fun.
it could in the end just be the regular FPS action but without actual deaths instead having the knockdown people are proposing, and with actually balanced weapons instead of the shit we have now. if you have a combat system that effectively removes the need for S2M, for NLR, and basically all the problems that guns currently cause then that would be a step in the right direction.
I still wonder why the servers wont let anyone who is non-admin collect enough resource to continue his own RP.
It kinda suck if you have to be 99.9% passive when other is doing hes RP.
If it was possible, what about trying to make a HL2RP similar to what it was like back around GMOD 9 or 10? it sounds like it was much better back then. seeing that I don't know what it was like, perhaps someone else could elaborate on it.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;44296202]you're assuming that I want mingepunching, or an FPS shootout in any way, and, no, that's not actually what I want, it's not fitting with RP at all, in fact i'm one of the people who advocates for guns to be removed.
this is why the proposal is "combat system", not something specific. i'm leaning towards something with RPG elements but tbh for HL2RP it had to be something tailored for it. to fit the lore it'd had to use guns but not be like, "oh I shot you in the head you're dead", it'll have to balance weapon efficacy against other weapons but also the amount of people involved. the key part is making it fun.
it could in the end just be the regular FPS action but without actual deaths instead having the knockdown people are proposing, and with actually balanced weapons instead of the shit we have now. if you have a combat system that effectively removes the need for S2M, for NLR, and basically all the problems that guns currently cause then that would be a step in the right direction.[/QUOTE]
I definitely think the idea of using knockdown guns could go really far in making HL2RP(and RP in general) much better and could probably satisfy everyone in the end. However, the thing I am concerned about the most with HL2RP is how we can make citizen RP enjoyable. Most of the action in HL2RP involves rebels and the cops. It would be nice if we managed to get every faction to have a very satisfying experience.
[QUOTE=Monkah;44293111]Please tell me you're trolling. You're asking how slaughter-- which doesn't have anything to do with character development or interaction-- should be defined as roleplay. Do you consider Call of Duty to be roleplay? How about Battlefield 3? Counter-Strike Source?
Roleplay is defined as community-wide storytelling and writing through player-controlled characters, using character development and emotions to guide said characters through the story. Shooting everything in sight isn't roleplay. It's not writing, it's not character development. More likely, it's a seventh grader taking his anger out on a video game after getting his hands on a firearm.[/QUOTE]
You're not defining rolepay here, roleplay is just playing a role, nothing more, nothing less.
[IMG]http://puu.sh/7CBnR.png[/IMG]
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roleplay_(disambiguation)"]source[/URL]
Character development happens naturally (your character develops in real life, doesn't it?). This "community wide story telling" stuff is story-driven roleplay, where you obey some stuff written by someone and have limited freedom inside it. The background story of hl2rp is all the half life lore available until the time period the server is in and maybe some added stuff by the community.
Also combat being not a "part" of roleplay is just bullshit.
You are playing a role, doesn't matter whether in a completly open RP scenario or in a story driven one (except if the story is that bad and combines and citizen are best friends).
Your character will make interactions with other characters. He might fall in love them, or start hating them. Maybe he starts hating them more and more, or joins a group that hate another group. (character development!) Then combat is just a thing that can happen when there's tension between the different sides. In half life (the story-driver in this thread) there is tons of combat because events ended up in that and in real life there also is combat in certain circumstances. You could also just roleplay a crazy person that shoots everybody (remeber school shootings exist and stuff and in a setting like half life it would be even more understandable for some people to go mad). You are probably fearing that everybody will do that and it will turn into a deathmatch, but that won't happen since there are people roleplaying combines that shut that stuff down and guns are incredibly hard to acquire.
I mean if you love story driven rp so much you could write a story without any combat and just play it out (yes actors in movies are also just roleplayers in a strictly story-driven roleplay). I don't see why you would do that in a game instead of filming a movie, but whatever suits you.
Guys stop. We need to come up with an agreement if we ever want a HL2RP server.
Personally, I like DoomKiwi's idea.
When you get shot, you get put into basically a ragdoll state. You aren't dead and are still able to RP. You can only die:
1. If you choose to, like refusing to revived in the battlefield games
2. A kill shot from another player.
3. Or something absolutely ridiculous, like getting killed by a RPG or something.
There should also be notifications for the player when they ragdoll. It will tell them where they were hit. This will allow for proper medical RP. I'm thinking after a set time the player will receive an option to get back up. I'm thinking 5-10ish minutes.
I've heard the argument "Just let people roleplay" and "Script over RP." but people [I]-do-[/I] suck. Script is essential.
Now please lets stop arguing in circles and get stuff done.
Agreed on all counts.
you should only be able to die if you decide to do so (or as a stretch, by an admin deciding for you), that's the only way to truly remove RDM. it's ultimately healthier on the long run, maybe people will stop trying to kill eachother and go for options that will be better for RP on the long run, like, going for injuries, be them permanent or not.
what you do is you enforce that, every time you're knocked down, you're injured, no way to escape that. you leave it up to consent to decide the severity of the injuries. if you die because of an RPG blast you better bet you're going to be in critical condition, or missing a couple of limbs. attempting to avoid injuries should be deemed powerplaying.
Could always have the script say where the injury is when you look at a person. The same info you're told when you're injured. Would help when you find a body and stop them from trying to say they weren't injured.
[editline]20th March 2014[/editline]
And of course admins can step in on special occasions like someone somehow getting an RPG.
If FP ever had an RP serve would we use Tacoscipt or like hand-craft our own?
[QUOTE=Gatekeeper828;44297787]I definitely think the idea of using knockdown guns could go really far in making HL2RP(and RP in general) much better and could probably satisfy everyone in the end. However, the thing I am concerned about the most with HL2RP is how we can make citizen RP enjoyable. Most of the action in HL2RP involves rebels and the cops. It would be nice if we managed to get every faction to have a very satisfying experience.[/QUOTE]
This is one of the only problems that I don't think is fixable with a script solution. After cruising around on some HL2RP servers yesterday, I realized that it's entirely built around "cops vs robbers", and civilians don't have anything to do. Some people have tried to use solutions, like sending citizens to work in the factory and do "/me picks up the metal" a few dozen times, or letting them go through long and very boring CWU applications so they can refill vending machines and pick up pretend-trash.
Again, I have to recommend an aftermath or alternative canon, one without CPs versus Rebels explicitly. Among lots of other things, it encourages typecasting of all of the dumb things about CPs and Rebels we've seen on other servers, and discourages the changes we're trying to do.
Back at TnB after city roleplay got extremely stale, we pushed forward to the actual rebellion, which for a while worked quite well. Why not attempt a rebellion RP. We could base it in a different city than City 17, so the actual rebellion lasts a lot longer than a week and three days. All different groups could form as well. There doesn't just have to be Rebels vs. Cops. There could be pro-Combine militias, gangs, off-shoot rebel factions. We have plenty of options to choose from.
[QUOTE=VOSK;44300649]If FP ever had an RP serve would we use Tacoscipt or like hand-craft our own?[/QUOTE]
Probably would either be Tacoscript or Nutscript, those seem to be the only decent scripts around currently.
[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;44300678]Again, I have to recommend an aftermath or alternative canon, one without CPs versus Rebels explicitly. Among lots of other things, it encourages typecasting of all of the dumb things about CPs and Rebels we've seen on other servers, and discourages the changes we're trying to do.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, if we were going to go with an alternative canon, we'd probably be better off creating our own Dystopian story for RP for two reasons: we wouldn't have people confused by it saying HL2RP when it might seem drastically different from the story they know and we would have a lot more flexibility in terms of what we can do. As for the aftermath idea, I think it could be pretty neat if we had the rebels vs combine stuff going on along with various people trying to survive in the outlands. The aftermath idea also provides a lot of flexibility assuming we don't use a location near City 17.
[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;44300678]This is one of the only problems that I don't think is fixable with a script solution. After cruising around on some HL2RP servers yesterday, I realized that it's entirely built around "cops vs robbers", and civilians don't have anything to do. Some people have tried to use solutions, like sending citizens to work in the factory and do "/me picks up the metal" a few dozen times, or letting them go through long and very boring CWU applications so they can refill vending machines and pick up pretend-trash.
Again, I have to recommend an aftermath or alternative canon, one without CPs versus Rebels explicitly. Among lots of other things, it encourages typecasting of all of the dumb things about CPs and Rebels we've seen on other servers, and discourages the changes we're trying to do.[/QUOTE]
actually citizen RP is less about "doing shit" and more about social interaction, which is what people don't get. there should never, ever be more CPs than citizens, hell, the citizen/CP ratio should be at most one CP per two citizens.
there's actually easy ways to encourage interaction between citizens, often the easiest way is just cramming a bunch of people in one place. forcibly add like, 4 people into one apartment when you do shit like judgement waivers. have the ration line take a really, really long time, and don't punish people for speaking to each other, punish when they step out of line or when they speak out loud. give shit to loyalists, like, extra rations in the ration line or permission to set up stores and so on.
something i would also propose is removing all the unnecessary hierarchy on the CPs, they should have a relatively flat progression so they work more in promoting citizen roleplay than trying to advance their characters.
On most servers I did, the ranks for CPs would go:
RCT, 04, 03, 02, 01, EPU, OFC, DVL, SEC
Then you get the other branches (technology, which is pretty redundant unless the server is huge, and medical) and it gets a little out of hand when there is like one person in each rank.
We could simplify it to:
RCT, 02, 01, OFC, DVL, SEC
We need a recruit rank, cause we gotta make sure those who get the job aren't pants on head retarded when they actually get in game. 02 is trusted MPF who can be given some more rights and a gun and 01 is meant to show potential for a higher rank, and makes it so everyone isn't stuck at the same rank for months until they make OFC. OFC is of course the officers, DVL only appears during big things like judgement waivers and serves to boss around OFCs and the SEC is only for super special events, symbolizing the man who controls a city or even multiple ones.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;44301322]there's actually easy ways to encourage interaction between citizens, often the easiest way is just cramming a bunch of people in one place. forcibly add like, 4 people into one apartment when you do shit like judgement waivers. have the ration line take a really, really long time, and don't punish people for speaking to each other, punish when they step out of line or when they speak out loud. give shit to loyalists, like, extra rations in the ration line or permission to set up stores and so on.[/QUOTE]
This is another 'solution' that I've seen tried over and over again for the last 3-4 years. Just because you force everyone to be in a small area with other people, doesn't mean they're going to interact and make interesting RP. I've been in this position literally dozens of times, and every single time the same thing happens. If you're lucky, two of the people will make small talk about why they're locked in the apartment, but then everyone sits around quietly and waits until they can fucking leave. If you "encourage interaction" like this a lot, then look at that - you have one of the single [i]biggest[/i] complaints I've ever heard in HL2RP.
"The CPs keep locking down the apartments and forcing me to stay in a small room for half an hour while the cops and rebels get to participate." "Citizens are always just stuck in their apartments during events, we literally can't do anything." "I've spent 3/4ths of my HL2RP experience locked in an apartment jacking off". You have no clue how huge of a problem people have with that. I can guarantee that if you ask a random HL2RP player what their biggest problem is, they're going to bring up the "interaction" techniques. Nobody talks in ration lines, making them take a really long time just makes it quietly standing in line, not moving, not talking - and that adds to the boredom and OOC oppression that breeds all of the problems like server hierarchy we're talking about. Server admins don't see the problems with that and keep doing it because they're [i]never[/i] the ones being locked in the apartments, they're having an exciting battle with antlions in the sewers or whatever. For all they know it's working excellently.
[QUOTE=Gatekeeper828;44301093]To be honest, if we were going to go with an alternative canon, we'd probably be better off creating our own Dystopian story for RP for two reasons: we wouldn't have people confused by it saying HL2RP when it might seem drastically different from the story they know and we would have a lot more flexibility in terms of what we can do. As for the aftermath idea, I think it could be pretty neat if we had the rebels vs combine stuff going on along with various people trying to survive in the outlands. The aftermath idea also provides a lot of flexibility assuming we don't use a location near City 17.[/QUOTE]
By aftermath server, I meant after the fall of the Combine, with a new society without any typecasting or stereotypes behind it. Something that people would still be able to mold naturally without being restricted by the conventionalism and cliches associated with CPs and rebels and HL2RP in general. An alternative canon without any relation to HL2, but still with the same themes, would be good too.
When constructing a system for how Civil Protection should be organized and run, I think it's important to realize that on one hand they're there to serve as tools for roleplay, but at the same time, it's difficult to convince people that their character doesn't matter, which I'm staunchly against. Assuming you have enough players to flesh out each ranking, character development along the lines of rank progression isn't something to be ignored, especially since it can work hand in hand in showing the evolution of how they interact with citizens as they're pressured by higher powers to react differently. It's also sort of disappointing for players who ascend in ranking and are given more out-server responsibilities while losing their capacity to appear in-server. If you limit the SEC or its equivalent to appear only during events, he risks becoming this sort of robotic, one-dimensional character that causes a real loss of interest.
I'm sort of losing interest in this discussion because it seems a majority of people intend to use the script less like a framework to better allow a real time forum-like experience, which I feel like will become a problem because then you'll end up promoting and encouraging players to play the script rather than to roleplay. Not that I'm saying you can't have combat and script-related experiences incorporated alongside roleplaying, I just believe you'll attract more and more script-guided players who become dependent on the script rather than their ability to write a story.
[editline]20th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;44301726]This is another 'solution' that I've seen tried over and over again for the last 3-4 years. Just because you force everyone to be in a small area with other people, doesn't mean they're going to interact and make interesting RP. I've been in this position literally dozens of times, and every single time the same thing happens. If you're lucky, two of the people will make small talk about why they're locked in the apartment, but then everyone sits around quietly and waits until they can fucking leave. If you "encourage interaction" like this a lot, then look at that - you have one of the single [i]biggest[/i] complaints I've ever heard in HL2RP.
"The CPs keep locking down the apartments and forcing me to stay in a small room for half an hour while the cops and rebels get to participate." "Citizens are always just stuck in their apartments during events, we literally can't do anything." "I've spent 3/4ths of my HL2RP experience locked in an apartment jacking off". You have no clue how huge of a problem people have with that. I can guarantee that if you ask a random HL2RP player what their biggest problem is, they're going to bring up the "interaction" techniques. Nobody talks in ration lines, making them take a really long time just makes it quietly standing in line, not moving, not talking - and that adds to the boredom and OOC oppression that breeds all of the problems like server hierarchy we're talking about. Server admins don't see the problems with that and keep doing it because they're [i]never[/i] the ones being locked in the apartments, they're having an exciting battle with antlions in the sewers or whatever. For all they know it's working excellently. [/quote]
Unfortunately this falls back on the lack of independency of the player and reliance on someone to guide them in their roleplay. They don't see the opportunity and expect it to be handed to them, so forcing them into an apartment ends up doing nothing for a lot of people. Ration lines are also problematic because most servers probably expect citizens to be completely silent, and the interaction that happens is always either conflict between parties or interaction outside of the ration line, e.g. conversing about their rations, while eating, etc. etc.
[quote]By aftermath server, I meant after the fall of the Combine, with a new society without any typecasting or stereotypes behind it. Something that people would still be able to mold naturally without being restricted by the conventionalism and cliches associated with CPs and rebels and HL2RP in general. An alternative canon without any relation to HL2, but still with the same themes, would be good too.[/QUOTE]
I'm a bit busy, so I can't elaborate further, but this was actually what TnB's recent writing for HL2RP was, "Post-HL2" roleplay. There was a lot of writing behind what happened, how humanity was trying to revive itself, how civilizations were reforming, and how conflict was spurring between groups. Unfortunately, there was a lot of behind-the-scene backstabbing, conflict, and rushed development that lead to an early death of the attempt.
This thread turned into a mass debate thread...
Time to get off-topic
The best part about Half-Life 2 RP is the noobs and their questions:
"how i be cop"
"/votecp"
"that is funny lol :D"
"i wanna apply for a job the f4 menu dont work halp"
Shit like that.
[QUOTE=TurtleeyFP;44301726]This is another 'solution' that I've seen tried over and over again for the last 3-4 years. Just because you force everyone to be in a small area with other people, doesn't mean they're going to interact and make interesting RP. I've been in this position literally dozens of times, and every single time the same thing happens. If you're lucky, two of the people will make small talk about why they're locked in the apartment, but then everyone sits around quietly and waits until they can fucking leave. If you "encourage interaction" like this a lot, then look at that - you have one of the single [i]biggest[/i] complaints I've ever heard in HL2RP.
"The CPs keep locking down the apartments and forcing me to stay in a small room for half an hour while the cops and rebels get to participate." "Citizens are always just stuck in their apartments during events, we literally can't do anything." "I've spent 3/4ths of my HL2RP experience locked in an apartment jacking off". You have no clue how huge of a problem people have with that. I can guarantee that if you ask a random HL2RP player what their biggest problem is, they're going to bring up the "interaction" techniques. Nobody talks in ration lines, making them take a really long time just makes it quietly standing in line, not moving, not talking - and that adds to the boredom and OOC oppression that breeds all of the problems like server hierarchy we're talking about. Server admins don't see the problems with that and keep doing it because they're [i]never[/i] the ones being locked in the apartments, they're having an exciting battle with antlions in the sewers or whatever. For all they know it's working excellently. [/QUOTE]
of course, if you lock them in ALONE then there's not a single chance they'll get any interaction. if they're not interacting insert somebody in the scene to get them going. an admin, or turn one of your CPs into a civvie and insert them in the scene to kind of get citizens to RP along.
it's more of a problem with people simultaneously not wanting citizens to interact, and then wanting citizens to interact, there's a dichotomy, and people get confused as to when are they supposed to talk to other people. in the servers I have been to i'm one of the few people who "initiates" rp by talking to random people.
it's more of an issue of it being done wrong than the concept itself being flawed.
It's not a matter of sending somebody out to make small talk with citizens, the biggest part of it falls on the cliches associated with HL2RP. Most servers try to enforce an attitude of depression and loneliness in citizens, and of course "isolate citizens!" becomes ingrained in a person after a while. I've tried to "initiate" rp with plenty of people, almost none of them bother responding to me, or at least do more than awkwardly say "hey" and walk away in the other direction. That's why I'm pressing for an alternative canon, to remove all of the formula for disaster connected to stock HL2RP.
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