Well, the thing is that not every server owner cares about being unique or is interested in learning lua, a lot of them just want something fun
[QUOTE=_FR_Starfox64;45809976]That is exactly the problem nowadays. The first thing a server owners do is go on CH and grad as much things as he can. When CH opened (or reopened) I don't recall how long ago it wasn't this big and I actually enjoyed making small scripts left and right, it was something that kept me busy and gave me ideas for script until a certain point where the jobs list became to get spammed by "setup-jobs" I think this happened about one or two month after they stopped moderation on jobs. The concept of "setup-jobs" is just completly dumb, I mean some peoples really aren't able to do anything on a computer and still they want to "own" a community.
I really can't tell if I'm against selling addons on CH or not, the one thing I'm sure about is that the jobs sections used to be a good place to keep yourself occupied and make some profit out of it while getting new ideas but it sure isn't anymore, I don't even go there anymore because I know all I'm gonna get are gonna be fix requests and "make me a server" requests.
I really hope we can throw some sort of contest to get some new gamemodes to become popular or even old gamemodes to get revived (fretta pls).[/QUOTE]
Lets throw some money and coders together in a room and let them code and host a fretta server. Then run 100 servers and have them populated to show up in the server browser, problem solved.
[sp]But that will never happen because of the fucking server browser and stubborn people who think the top-5 gamemodes are the only fun ones[/sp]
-snip-
That's actually a very good point and the giving back to the community aspect isn't something I've been taking into consideration. I believe learning is very important and that people shouldn't be afraid to make things for themselves, which it'd be nicer to see more of.
I personally have no problem with Coders receiving money for their work, because there are numerous hobbies that are profitable and sometimes you need that profit to actually continue it as a hobby. On the other hand, there are some things on Coderhire where I feel a bit disappointed that it's being sold i.e [url=http://coderhire.com/scripts/view/1293]this[/url]
Keep in mind, there are often posts on Facepunch where a user is asking for something simple and lots of posters will say to 'Go to Coderhire!' which I personally think is bad, unless the player clearly isn't listening and wanting to be spoonfed.
But yeah, your last point about the way out is to change people's mindset is completely correct.
A good solution (although Adam would never do it) could be to have CoderHire be primarily jobs only and have a small script section only for those premium massive addons such as Pointshop 2, full gamemodes like that NS Schema I saw, etc. Not petty things like a single TTT weapon. Basically more focus on jobs and less on scripts.
GMod isn't dying (as it is almost always the [b]top 5 played game on Steam[/b]) however I agree that more fun, well-made gamemodes that people want to host would be nice to see. Perhaps another gamemode contest as others have mentioned?
I agree that there are 2 demographics at play here: Facepunchers and Garry's Modders. The former are more worried about the uniqueness(?) of their product. The latter are more worried about "whats cool right now" which seems to move in phases quite quickly. Take a look at the PERP phase Garry's Mod went through.
Personally, after developing a gamemode for several years and having the server sit empty, I lost interest. Unless your gamemode is TTT or DarkRP or whatever is popular now-days, there is a very high chance that your server will be empty unless you get some "rent-a-player"s to take up slots. I think Garry's innovation-killing scoreboard has a lot to do with it, but at the same time I think that players dont want to have to learn how to play something all over again, the like what is familiar. It sucks but, thats just the way it works :(
[QUOTE=Cyberuben;45809230]I think Garry's Mod is dying because it lacks some dedicated developers like back in the days. I'm not saying that the developers that are here right now are doing a bad job or are not dedicated, but most of their work is either private for their own servers or own communities, or sold on Coderhire.
Coderhire ruined Garry's Mod because it doesn't even want people to release anything for free anymore (exceptions here and there, yes). Garry's Mod has become a build game with DLCs, a lot of plugins that back in the days would have been considered as "the best addon ever", or "a master piece" are currently sold on Coderhire, because it brings in money. I'm not trying to say that developing for money is bad, not at all, but there's a difference in moral between now and back in the days. Right now everyone is releasing their scripts on Coderhire, and not because they want it to be exclusive, no, they see it as work. They don't see it as a game they like to mod, they see it as work. When Garry's Mod had Garrysmod.org and nothing more, there were a lot of addons and maps that were genuinely good and great, all for free, and the only thing the developer gained was fame (reputation?) and maybe some money from donations.
The moral back then was just to develop something great, right now there are loads of plugins on Coderhire that in theory do the same thing, just slightly different, and they all cost money, separately. The moral right now is trying to get the most money out of your plugin, meaning, people are asking others "How much do you think I should put this on Coderhire for?".
I really don't think that the fact Garry's Mod is [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1257110]openly supporting Coderhire[/url] is good because it stimulates a monopoly in the hands of Adam, other people who try to start a competing website will get yelled at by all the people who support Coderhire. It's not fair, it destroys creativity and makes Garry's Mod another of those games where it is all about money.
Again, I do not disagree with developers earning money, but it's the way HOW they earn money and the lack of publicly released addons (because of the coders' moral) that kills Garry's Mod.
Just ask yourself, is there really any variety in Garry's Mod anymore? Everything's starting to be the same, nothing is unique, mainly due to Coderhire.[/QUOTE]
Hur hur hur evil capitalists.
I make scripts for coderhire. But I don't see it as work. I see it as a game.
Yeah, that's right, coderhire is a game for me. The profits I make are pennies compared to what I earned on my day programming job, so money is not that important. It's more of a reward I just enjoy.
That game consists of a few steps:
- Find a thing people lack, a demand in market
- Create something to fulfill the demand
- Find the proper price for it, try to find the balance between the amount of sales and price to maximize profit
- Support what you created and earn reputation
It's basically business world simulation for kids because [b]any startup[/b] follows the same steps!
Isn't it fun to solve that puzzle piece by piece? Business training and coding training and you even get paid for it.
But that was about me and coderhire. About the community.
Regardless of the "moral" nowdays more great projects get finished because people are motivated. Also most projects on coderhire are plugins and additions to TTT, DarkRP, Deathrun and a few other gamemodes.
[b] Exactly the things facepunch finds unoriginal and doesn't care about [/b]
And all new gamemodes get released for free except for some community creations.
So what's the fuss? These are parallel worlds. Great obscure projects people make for fun don't sell on coderhire anyways because coderhire visitors have very concrete demands. They need DarkRP and TTT stuff and they get it. So it's not like addons that would be released previously mostly go to Coderhire. Some do, but not the majority.
I don't see how Coderhire stopped us from creating great things.
Had someone really been motivated by "creating something great"? I can't even imagine that. I am motivated by "this is fun", "this is interesting", "this is challanging" and coderhire provides it all giving me a business game to play.
If you are that altruistic and motivated by greatness Coderhire shouldn't be a problem for you.
[editline]27th August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=YourStalker;45810843]A good solution (although Adam would never do it) could be to have CoderHire be primarily jobs only and have a small script section only for those premium massive addons such as Pointshop 2, full gamemodes like that NS Schema I saw, etc. Not petty things like a single TTT weapon. Basically more focus on jobs and less on scripts.[/QUOTE]
Then you will get "make me a single TTT weapon jobs".
There is a demand for it in the market. You might want uniqueness, but average server owners want something practical.
Yeah but "make me a single weapon for TTT" jobs are better since it will be custom to that one server. If it was a sold script them a lot more servers will have it.
Also, just as a quick thing, Kilburn has said before he understands that the current server browser has some issues and is taking solutions for an alternative. Only issue is, it's quite hard to come up with an idea that benefits new gamemodes but also isn't abusible.
the legacy browser did the job before garry added his fancy server browser.
[QUOTE=kibble;45815182]the legacy browser did the job before garry added his fancy server browser.[/QUOTE]
I still only use the legacy browser and can't really figure out how to use the new one (and don't want too).
The legacy browser still works wonders IMO
Some of you might remember that I did a bit of work on DarkRP (the 2.2 series) before Fptje took over.
I don't consider Garry's Mod to be dead yet, although a lot of players from 2007 (when I first started coding for it) have obviously grown up / moved on to other games now.
I'm actively writing an RP gamemode which (when released) will be
- A "Public Script"
- Modifyable (kind of how DarkRP is but with a very different file structure and just ONE config file.)
..and I will not be selling it on coderhire. That's right, it will be free (and not under the GPL, either).
I'm doing this because it is the gamemode that I wanted RP to become. I hope people will want to take it as a base and add their own items - that they will want to build communities around it.
I am making sure it is more enjoyable than DarkRP (for me at least!).
It will still be a while yet though, unfortunately (writing a decent gamemode takes time).
Edit:
This is not a DarkRP edit as some might expect. It did contain some DarkRP code originally (from a 7 year old version) but all of it has now gone, the files are completely reorganized, there is a new hud, new organizations system, locks and the ability to give keys to other public and private organizations, NLR is just part of the game, etc. It's coming along but I won't go into more detail yet since I have learned that it can be foolish to show something off too much before having something people can play otherwise they get too impatient. This has been on the backburner for 7 years so I can do patience... but my own patience has run out with DarkRP so I'm seeing how quickly I can get it done.
[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;45816210]Some of you might remember that I did a bit of work on DarkRP (the 2.2 series) before Fptje took over.
I don't consider Garry's Mod to be dead yet, although a lot of players from 2007 (when I first started coding for it) have obviously grown up / moved on to other games now.
I'm actively writing an RP gamemode which (when released) will be
- A "Public Script"
- Modifyable (kind of how DarkRP is but with a very different file structure and just ONE config file.)
..and I will not be selling it on coderhire. That's right, it will be free (and not under the GPL, either).
I'm doing this because it is the gamemode that I wanted RP to become. I hope people will want to take it as a base and add their own items - that they will want to build communities around it.
I am making sure it is more enjoyable than DarkRP (for me at least!).
It will still be a while yet though, unfortunately (writing a decent gamemode takes time).
Edit:
This is not a DarkRP edit as some might expect. It did contain some DarkRP code originally (from a 7 year old version) but all of it has now gone, the files are completely reorganized, there is a new hud, new organizations system, locks and the ability to give keys to other public and private organizations, NLR is just part of the game, etc. It's coming along but I won't go into more detail yet since I have learned that it can be foolish to show something off too much before having something people can play otherwise they get too impatient. This has been on the backburner for 7 years so I can do patience... but my own patience has run out with DarkRP so I'm seeing how quickly I can get it done.[/QUOTE]
If you haven't made a thread for it, I would highly suggest you do! This sounds interesting. :)
[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;45816210]Some of you might remember that I did a bit of work on DarkRP (the 2.2 series) before Fptje took over.
I don't consider Garry's Mod to be dead yet, although a lot of players from 2007 (when I first started coding for it) have obviously grown up / moved on to other games now.
I'm actively writing an RP gamemode which (when released) will be
- A "Public Script"
- Modifyable (kind of how DarkRP is but with a very different file structure and just ONE config file.)
..and I will not be selling it on coderhire. That's right, it will be free (and not under the GPL, either).
I'm doing this because it is the gamemode that I wanted RP to become. I hope people will want to take it as a base and add their own items - that they will want to build communities around it.
I am making sure it is more enjoyable than DarkRP (for me at least!).
It will still be a while yet though, unfortunately (writing a decent gamemode takes time).
Edit:
This is not a DarkRP edit as some might expect. It did contain some DarkRP code originally (from a 7 year old version) but all of it has now gone, the files are completely reorganized, there is a new hud, new organizations system, locks and the ability to give keys to other public and private organizations, NLR is just part of the game, etc. It's coming along but I won't go into more detail yet since I have learned that it can be foolish to show something off too much before having something people can play otherwise they get too impatient. This has been on the backburner for 7 years so I can do patience... but my own patience has run out with DarkRP so I'm seeing how quickly I can get it done.[/QUOTE]
can you please not add printers? they completely ruin any RP by making people stay in little rooms cowering from each other. I would really love to see this as a fun RP gamemode. Best of luck!
I'm not sure about the statistics around Garry's Mod's popularity now a days compared to the past, and I don't want to draw any general conclusions about Garry's Mod's future. However, since so many people have chosen to bring up what they think is worse with Garry's Mod now a days, I'd like to bring up what I consider improved.
Yes, there is a huge supply of DarkRP and TTT servers now a days, whereas more original gamemodes seem to fade away (Spacebuild, Flood, SpiderMod, PirateShipWars etc.), but on the other hand, this large supply creates very healthy and sharp competition among communities. DarkRP has - for those who enjoy it - improved severely. I used to play DarkRP for a long time ago, and nothing else than nostalgia can make me say that things were better back then. There's a range of new features and stability around DarkRP now a days, and there are many more large servers gathering high amounts of players. Essentially this is rather basic - fierce competition increases quality.
With regards to CoderHire, I'd also draw the conclusion that less scripts become available for free, although there are still quite a few that do. However, CoderHire and the whole concept of lua projects being sold to the masses have given so many more opportunities to server owners that don't have the knowledge of coding themselves. They can now gain professional and qualitative scripts that used to be a luxury of the very large communities in the past. Many more server owners have the ability to use a cool and neat loading screen today. They can now customize their servers to a far degree and can even buy very well coded gamemodes and admin mods that always would have been restricted to wealthy individual communities in the past.
I am of the belief that all this new competition, supply and monetary reward for coders and communities have increased the quality of both servers and scripts, while allowing almost everyone to have the opportunity to make a good server without having to know how to code or hire a coder for their individual community. Management and structure will always be more important than scripts, but they can still undeniably make a server more competitive and enjoyable. I'm not saying that I personally enjoy the servers now a days more than the ones in the past, but I won't be stubborn or nostalgic enough to say that more people now a days aren't enjoying a more open and competitive Garry's Mod. I'm neither saying that Garry's Mod is better in all ways today than it used to be, but I do see many severe improvements as well.
All of this "competition" just makes servers become carbon copies in order to gain players; they just copy the popular servers trying to gain players. CoderHire contributes to this greatly as they think their servers become more "customized", but it just sets a new standard for what servers [i]should[/i] have to appeal to players.
Garry's Mod servers have become way to "businessy" to actually seem like they put their servers up for fun. 99% of the time, it's a scheme to rake in extra Steam games/PC part money.
[QUOTE=Chessnut;45818660]All of this "competition" just makes servers become carbon copies in order to gain players; they just copy the popular servers trying to gain players. CoderHire contributes to this greatly as they think their servers become more "customized", but it just sets a new standard for what servers [i]should[/i] have to appeal to players.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the new scripts that are purchasable do set a new standard. It does that however, because players desire and want the new standard. Server owners adapt to the demands and desires of their potential players. We can sit here and be elitists judging players for wanting servers which use purchasable scripts, but who are we to judge them for what they enjoy and demand? Quality is something subjective and is determined by what people perceive as value.
[QUOTE=Chessnut;45818660]Garry's Mod servers have become way to "businessy" to actually seem like they put their servers up for fun. 99% of the time, it's a scheme to rake in extra Steam games/PC part money.[/QUOTE]
As long as players by their free will chose the "businessy" servers because they find them enjoyable, who are we to judge the servers? Most players don't care about whether the server owner profits or not - they don't bother being envious. They just want an enjoyable experience and will seek the server they enjoy the most. Driving forces of the server owner is rather irrelevant as long as they create something of value.
[QUOTE=da space core;45816404]can you please not add printers? they completely ruin any RP by making people stay in little rooms cowering from each other. I would really love to see this as a fun RP gamemode. Best of luck![/QUOTE]
Well, although I admit that it was me that added printers to DarkRP 2.2 in the first place (they originated in Render's Roleplay RRPX) - my WIP gamemode is not designed to use money printers. There is a central bank (which kind of counts as printing money) but then it is up to the currently elected government organization as to how they manage the economy. I haven't implemented that part quite yet but I have designed it (mostly) so it's not a massive job.
It is not designed for money printers to be present at all - unfortunately, there is a danger that someone might create printers for SeriousRP after I have released it - (I'm watching you..!) - but since there are other ways of making money as a member of a business, you shouldn't want to sit in the corner printing cash in the first place (which would actually interfere with the game's intended economy design).
Another note is that when you die in SeriousRP, you begin a new life. You lose all the money in your wallet, you get a new character with a new RP name which is given to you by the server from a selection of about 30,000 different hard-coded names in the config. If you were a member of an organization, you can ask them to hire you again - but the point is, try not to get killed. And since guns need to be manufactured from raw materials by companies using machines, there should be less of them in the game - they are more valuable, people are less likely to waste bullets, etc (in theory)
[QUOTE=Gurrazor;45818756]Yes, the new scripts that are purchasable do set a new standard. It does that however, because players desire and want the new standard. Server owners adapt to the demands and desires of their potential players. We can sit here and be elitists judging players for wanting servers which use purchasable scripts, but who are we to judge them for what they enjoy and demand? Quality is something subjective and is determined by what people perceive as value.
As long as players by their free will chose the "businessy" servers because they find them enjoyable, who are we to judge the servers? Most players don't care about whether the server owner profits or not - they don't bother being envious. They just want an enjoyable experience and will seek the server they enjoy the most. Driving forces of the server owner is rather irrelevant as long as they create something of value.[/QUOTE]
That's until you have to "donate" to gain perks for almost anything enjoyable.
[QUOTE=Chessnut;45818935]That's until you have to "donate" to gain perks for almost anything enjoyable.[/QUOTE]
Jobs I can't fucking stand being exclusive, especially because they're often better versions of normal ones (eg. Swat is basically a better police officer). Or they're exclusive jobs, like radio manager who gains the ability to micspam and be heard all over the town.
Even admin-on-duty jobs I don't get, why not just make yourself invisible and noclip around as a citizen? You won't break any "immersion" by having people see some guy flying around.
[QUOTE=Chessnut;45818935]That's until you have to "donate" to gain perks for almost anything enjoyable.[/QUOTE]
If a server doesn't provide anything enjoyable without the requirement of purchasing perks, players will leave that server unless they chose to pay. Most players chose not to purchase perks on servers and I can imagine that it would be very challenging to rely on a player-base entirely consisting of people who are able and willing to pay. Such a server would likely have a lack of players. From what I can tell, most servers have a balance where the default experience is still enjoyable and appreciated.
I'd also like to add that it's very challenging to run a large-scale server without selling any sort of perks, unless you pay for it all from your own pocket. There are many hefty costs - hosting, domains, security (DDOS-firewalls), licenses, software, development and other services. I find the idea that only wealthy people should be able to run a server rather disturbing, and these perks are essentially an opportunity for skilled people to run a server without having to spend their own spare money.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45819024]
Even admin-on-duty jobs I don't get, why not just make yourself invisible and noclip around as a citizen? You won't break any "immersion" by having people see some guy flying around.[/QUOTE]
It makes it easier for players to identify who they can contact & If they're citizen, they are in character; as an admin on duty they aren't.
[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;45818802]Well, although I admit that it was me that added printers to DarkRP 2.2 in the first place (they originated in Render's Roleplay RRPX) - my WIP gamemode is not designed to use money printers. There is a central bank (which kind of counts as printing money) but then it is up to the currently elected government organization as to how they manage the economy. I haven't implemented that part quite yet but I have designed it (mostly) so it's not a massive job.
It is not designed for money printers to be present at all - unfortunately, there is a danger that someone might create printers for SeriousRP after I have released it - (I'm watching you..!) - but since there are other ways of making money as a member of a business, you shouldn't want to sit in the corner printing cash in the first place (which would actually interfere with the game's intended economy design).
Another note is that when you die in SeriousRP, you begin a new life. You lose all the money in your wallet, you get a new character with a new RP name which is given to you by the server from a selection of about 30,000 different hard-coded names in the config. If you were a member of an organization, you can ask them to hire you again - but the point is, try not to get killed. And since guns need to be manufactured from raw materials by companies using machines, there should be less of them in the game - they are more valuable, people are less likely to waste bullets, etc (in theory)[/QUOTE]
What if someone dies from prop pushing, rdm or something like that? There should be a way to restore lost progress when the death was an accident.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45819210]What if someone dies from prop pushing, rdm or something like that? There should be a way to restore lost progress when the death was an accident.[/QUOTE]
You can rejoin the organization where you left off and since you are paid by that organization (or have funds with them) you don't lose as much as you might think. Also, I don't have an inventory (since nobody carries that amount of stuff around with them in real life) so instead, you can hold cash and a certain amount of raw materials which can be dropped - but the rest is invested. It can be stored in the bank, held with a company, etc. If you have someone set up as a beneficiary when you die, they can inherit your account - although I haven't got the full details of that down yet.
The problem is, we do need some kind of NLR in the script since I think it's silly to die and then just go back to what you were doing - in DarkRP, you "die" and then you are kind of the same person again... if you never lose at least some of your resources, you would end up with a destroyed economy and players running around with billions in cash and just buying guns instead of trying to earn more. Hopefully the people that want to prop push and rdm will have more fun over on a DarkRP server and disconnect, while those that want to run businesses and an economy will maybe lean more towards this instead.
Also, if players don't fully die, it has the implication that their in-game-created companies shouldn't fully die when all the members of that company have died, which means they would have to stay in the database even when all the members of that organization are not online and it starts to make everything more complex since more players will be joining and creating new ones all the time - and if those players are not online, you will want to be part of another one anyway. I want players to be able to connect, jump into a new role, self-organize into a company (even if it is temporary) get to work, earn some money - but try to avoid getting killed. There will be less killing since guns are harder to acquire - as for prop pushing, that comes down to a server admin - since the script unfortunately can't stop everything or decide who was innocent.
When you get a new life in SeriousRP, it is a bit like being born as a new character, you are given a new (single-word) RP name randomly selected, you are given a gender and you are given an age (so not exactly like being born). From there you can choose who you want to work for or if you want to start an organization.
[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;45819677]You can rejoin the organization where you left off and since you are paid by that organization (or have funds with them) you don't lose as much as you might think. Also, I don't have an inventory (since nobody carries that amount of stuff around with them in real life) so instead, you can hold cash and a certain amount of raw materials which can be dropped - but the rest is invested. It can be stored in the bank, held with a company, etc. If you have someone set up as a beneficiary when you die, they can inherit your account - although I haven't got the full details of that down yet.
The problem is, we do need some kind of NLR in the script since I think it's silly to die and then just go back to what you were doing - in DarkRP, you "die" and then you are kind of the same person again... if you never lose at least some of your resources, you would end up with a destroyed economy and players running around with billions in cash and just buying guns instead of trying to earn more. Hopefully the people that want to prop push and rdm will have more fun over on a DarkRP server and disconnect, while those that want to run businesses and an economy will maybe lean more towards this instead.
Also, if players don't fully die, it has the implication that their in-game-created companies shouldn't fully die when all the members of that company have died, which means they would have to stay in the database even when all the members of that organization are not online and it starts to make everything more complex since more players will be joining and creating new ones all the time - and if those players are not online, you will want to be part of another one anyway. I want players to be able to connect, jump into a new role, self-organize into a company (even if it is temporary) get to work, earn some money - but try to avoid getting killed. There will be less killing since guns are harder to acquire - as for prop pushing, that comes down to a server admin - since the script unfortunately can't stop everything or decide who was innocent.
When you get a new life in SeriousRP, it is a bit like being born as a new character, you are given a new (single-word) RP name randomly selected, you are given a gender and you are given an age (so not exactly like being born). From there you can choose who you want to work for or if you want to start an organization.[/QUOTE]
Discuss your gamemode in another thread or over Steam, this is derailing the thread.
[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;45818802]Well, although I admit that it was me that added printers to DarkRP 2.2 in the first place (they originated in Render's Roleplay RRPX).[/QUOTE]
Oh my, it has been a long time since I have even heard about RRPX, now continuing on to the thoughts at hand, I believe we need more developers to work together. It has been a while since I have seen a real group of good developers huddling in a voice chat discussing things and truly working together. I think if we bring back the idea of trust we may be able to do something yet again.
[QUOTE=MadkillerMax;45820508]Oh my, it has been a long time since I have even heard about RRPX, now continuing on to the thoughts at hand, I believe we need more developers to work together. It has been a while since I have seen a real group of good developers huddling in a voice chat discussing things and truly working together. I think if we bring back the idea of trust we may be able to do something yet again.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gmodcoders"]Feel free to join this[/URL]. Most of the active developers here are a part of it.
[QUOTE=crazyscouter;45820743][URL="http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gmodcoders"]Feel free to join this[/URL]. Most of the active developers here are a part of it.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow, how have I not noticed this? Thank you (sir? madam? it?)
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