Why is GMODS potential being limited?

[escenraL]

I thought everyone just used the legacy browser, I've used the new one like four times (and I've played a bunch of gmod, +200 hours)

[nettsam]

CoderHire, the server browser

need say more?

[mdmrzk]

First, hello everybody and sorry if I have a bad english because i'm not a native speaker. And in the begin, it sounds like I'm out of the topic, but I'm not, you'll see it later on the post.

I think Gmod entered in a vicyous cycle, because now, a game who get sells fast doesn't have to be good, doesn't have to be beautiful, a game who sells must be enjoyable to watch. Why ? Because people now (the young ones, who is a large part of the "gamers" now) buy the games they'r favorites youtubers (PewDiePie, UberNova, ...) plays. If PewDiePie make a video of Gmod where he make automatic turrets with Wiremod, a lot of people will buy it to make things with Wiremod. But will Pewds do that ? No. Why ? Because these youtubers make a facecam, and scream, and when they publish the video, the title is in caps with a dumb joke. The problems is, that in Gmod, they're (I'm not english, so if it is the wrong "they're", sorry) is only few gamemodes who are excellent for this kinds of videos. TTT, Prop Hunt, Murder, Cops and Robbers and more. So they make videos of Gmod with this gamemodes, and when theyre fans watch, they say "I must play this, it is hilarious". So they buy Gmods not for building or posing, no, they buy a Sandbox at 10 $ with CSS at 20$ just for 1 or 2 gamemodes.

When they launch Gmod, they have the new servers browser. The problem is, this browser show at the tops the most played gamemodes, and the less played gamemodes at the bottom. And what is the most played gamemodes ? The ones that the famous youtubers plays ! TTT, Prop Hunt ... So, a new Gmod's player who buy Gmod because of theyse youtubers will, because of the server browser, never discover others gamemodes, and for him, singleplayer is useless.

The problems is, if you do an AMAZING gamemodes, a gamemode you worked in it for 4 weeks or 2 month, nobody will play it, so now, the coders (not all of them of course) will think like this : "Why I create a free gamemode that nobody will play when I can create script for Codehire and gain money ?"

So, in my opinion, it's not Coderhire the main problems, it's "the players" (we can't blame them, they spend theyre money how they like) who watch some youtubers who show them only one vision of Gmod, and the new browser who let the not popular gamemode die.

[ph:lxyz]

[QUOTE=mdmrzk;45838535]So, in my opinion, it's not Coderhire the main problems, it's "the players" (we can't blame them, they spend theyre money how they like) who watch some youtubers who show them only one vision of Gmod, and the new browser who let the not popular gamemode die.[/QUOTE]

I think there is truth in this - and there is also truth that new gamemodes have little chance of gaining in popularity because TTT and DarkRP are pegged at the top. The alternative gamemodes won't be so easily seen. However, it does also mean that you have to make new gamemodes that are very good and competitive in order to even have a chance at getting up higher in the server browser list. So if you do see any new gamemodes up there, it's probably because they are either good, or, as you say - pewdiepie'd.

[kila58]

Here is the problem, all these gamemodes were(and still are, if you look past their popularity)very innovative. But due to some new problems (youtubers, server browser, 12 year olds) a "gamemode monopoly" has been created. You could make a gamemode just or more as innovative as them, but either 1 of 2 things will happen:
1. Your gamemode gets played for 2 weeks, then dies
2. Your gamemode gets popular, and you are just contributing to the monopoly

You can't blame the gamemodes, but the game and playerbase you can.
I think Garry knows he can change this problem and that he has noticed it.
However it's easy to put something aside if you are making bank on it.
Not to mention he pre-packs the game with ttt. I really thinks it's on the Garry's mod development teams shoulders at this point. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of their work, but they are ignoring the biggest problem so far, even after mass complaints. It's very obvious it wouldn't be hard removing ttt and the new server browser from the next release, but the chances of that happening are slim.

[StarFox]

[QUOTE=kila58;45839149]Here is the problem, all these gamemodes were(and still are, if you look past their popularity)very innovative. But due to some new problems (youtubers, server browser, 12 year olds) a "gamemode monopoly" has been created. You could make a gamemode just or more as innovative as them, but either 1 of 2 things will happen:
1. Your gamemode gets played for 2 weeks, then dies
2. Your gamemode gets popular, and you are just contributing to the monopoly

You can't blame the gamemodes, but the game and playerbase you can.
I think Garry knows he can change this problem and that he has noticed it.
However it's easy to put something aside if you are making bank on it.
Not to mention he pre-packs the game with ttt. I really thinks it's on the Garry's mod development teams shoulders at this point. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of their work, but they are ignoring the biggest problem so far, even after mass complaints. It's very obvious it wouldn't be hard removing ttt and the new server browser from the next release, but the chances of that happening are slim.[/QUOTE]

Removing TTT would be complete discrimination.
The one thing to blame is the server browser, _Kilburn is aware of it and is working on a new version and we can expect server/gamemode filters and maybe a gamemode feature system.

[Tomvdr]

[QUOTE=_FR_Starfox64;45839284]Removing TTT would be complete discrimination.[/QUOTE]

Just wondering, why would it be discrimination if you were to remove TTT? Isn't it discrimination that only one popular gamemode get's shipped by default?

[kila58]

[QUOTE=Tomvdr;45840373]Just wondering, why would it be discrimination if you were to remove TTT? Isn't it discrimination that only one popular gamemode get's shipped by default?[/QUOTE]

I'm wondering the same. It's a sandbox game, and if ttt was removed in my eyes it would only make it more fair.

[StarFox]

[QUOTE=Tomvdr;45840373]Just wondering, why would it be discrimination if you were to remove TTT? Isn't it discrimination that only one popular gamemode get's shipped by default?[/QUOTE]

It's not what I meant, removing TTT wouldn't solve the problem, it's still a good thing to have less content to download even if it's from an overplayed gamemode.

[Vipes]

[QUOTE=Tomvdr;45840373]Just wondering, why would it be discrimination if you were to remove TTT? Isn't it discrimination that only one popular gamemode get's shipped by default?[/QUOTE]

There use to be more than one. We don't talk about them anymore.

[kila58]

[QUOTE=_FR_Starfox64;45840574]It's not what I meant, removing TTT wouldn't solve the problem, it's still a good thing to have less content to download even if it's from an overplayed gamemode.[/QUOTE]

Ttt doesn't need content however.

[editline]30th August 2014[/editline]

[QUOTE=Vipes;45840582]There use to be more than one. We don't talk about them anymore.[/QUOTE]

Sexy airboats

[ph:lxyz]

I don't think it is fair to say TTT is overplayed.

There is a TTT privilege which occurs from the fact that it is at the top of the list as a result of being preinstalled, but TTT doesn't take up the whole server browser. The main issue is that beyond the third position in the server browser, a lot of new players will probably not bother looking - why? Because that's also how they have been use Google now for years.

[mdmrzk]

Well, removing TTT from vanilla game will be fair, but will not solve the problem.

I think we(players) can't do anything because theyre is 4 problems :

_The youtubers, who show one vision of Gmod. (Can not be change)

_The players, who buy this game just for TTT, DarkRP, or killing NPC in singleplayer. (Can not be change)

_The server browser, who hide the less played gamemode.

_And the coders, who begin to create less free content. (Can not be change)

Theyre is 4 problems that make Gmod potentially limited, and they're is only one the devs can change : the server browser.

If they absolutely want to remove the old browser, then why they don't make a browser where they're is different category of gamemodes, but in alphabetical orders, like :

Action (Where we put things like TTT, Zombie,...)
Build (Sandbox, Spacebuild)
Mini-games (Prop Hunt)
Roleplay (DarkRP, PERP)

Something like that, in alphabetical order so they don't show the most played category and so the players will try others gamemodes. And the coders will create more gamemodes because they know the players will click on the category he want to play.

What do you guys think ?

EDIT: Of course, it's the gamemode maker who decide in wich category his gamemode go (with the workshop, he just choose one or two)

[ph:lxyz]

Categories: Yes!

Gamemodes:
Build
Roleplay
Minigames
Running and Jumping
Survival
Zombie Related

[Teddi]

[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;45844133]Categories: Yes!

Gamemodes:
Build
Roleplay
Minigames
Running and Jumping
Survival
Zombie Related[/QUOTE]

I think Zombies would fall under Survival, given the only other gamemode based on the latter is Stranded (or Winter Survival) :v:
I honestly do blame the browser for quite a bit of the issues GMod has in terms of player because ultimately anything original is potentially pushed out of the way and kept is its own category because there aren't enough servers to push it to the top. (One of my servers currently masquerades as a DarkRP server to fool the list, and it gets far more players than when it did in its own category).

That said, the comments about youtubers are fairly apt - they come in, show a tiny portion of the game then fuck off. As a result you have players that enter with a certain mindset and almost attempt to replicate any terrible behaviour the yter was performing, thus degrading the quality further.

And then there's the servers made for generating cash by selling $50 admin... :suicide:

[mdmrzk]

[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;45844260]I think Zombies would fall under Survival, given the only other gamemode based on the latter is Stranded (or Winter Survival) :v:
I honestly do blame the browser for quite a bit of the issues GMod has in terms of player because ultimately anything original is potentially pushed out of the way and kept is its own category because there aren't enough servers to push it to the top. (One of my servers currently masquerades as a DarkRP server to fool the list, and it gets far more players than when it did in its own category).

That said, the comments about youtubers are fairly apt - they come in, show a tiny portion of the game then fuck off. As a result you have players that enter with a certain mindset and almost attempt to replicate any terrible behaviour the yter was performing, thus degrading the quality further.

And then there's the servers made for generating cash by selling $50 admin... :suicide:[/QUOTE]

Nice categories ph:lxyz, and you removed Action, good idea, because a lot of people would only go to this category thinking the others are boring :)

And for Zombies, if we think with logic, yes, it go to survivals, but for exemple, a lot of players were disapointing with Rust when the zombies were removed, even if the game was the same.

And yes, the 50$ admin is awful

[ph:lxyz]

I put zombies into its own category in that list because some players specifically want to keep killing zombies over and over again whereas survival is more for stranded type games. That said, there aren't many other "Stranded"-like gamemodes that I'm aware of so maybe they do go together:

It could be:

Build (would include space gamemodes)
Roleplay (would include DarkRP, Space RP gamemodes, GTA stuff, HL2RP, etc)
Minigames and Side-Scrollers (Go Fish!, Flood, etc)
Puzzles (for things like js_coop build puzzle style gamemodes in HL2:DM)
Running and Jumping (bunnyhop, + several others)
Zombie & Survival Games (stranded, ZombieRP, etc)

[Khub]

Serious Roleplay should get it's own category, it doesn't deserve to be buried under all the DarkRP servers.
I'm thinking of a section for gamemodes that utilize round systems, such as TTT or Murder. Can't think of a good name, though.

The built-in tag system could be used to sort servers, but unless we establish some kind of moderation (unlikely), the categories will end up getting abused and servers misplaced.

[mdmrzk]

[QUOTE=Khub;45844483]Serious Roleplay should get it's own category, it doesn't deserve to be buried under all the DarkRP servers.
I'm thinking of a section for gamemodes that utilize round systems, such as TTT or Murder. Can't think of a good name, though.

The built-in tag system could be used to sort servers, but unless we establish some kind of moderation (unlikely), the categories will end up getting abused and servers misplaced.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, this is my biggest fear actually, we should put a 2 categories limit, but it's hard. But theyre is not a lot of gamemode, yeah I know, there is 27 pages on the Workshop for gamemodes, but in one page, I found 6 prophunt , and a lot of addons/horror map.

[ph:lxyz]

I think the workshop categories are quite limiting - but I guess it is difficult to have them either broad enough or detailed enough when you have to limit the number of tags to prevent people selecting all of them.

gamemode categories could be like this:

choose one of each to describe your gamemode:

[Environment]
City
Suburbs
Forest
Space
Sea
Any

[Gameplay Style]
Free Play
Rule-Based Play
Strictly Rule-Based Play

[Game Type]
Side Scroller
Roleplaying
Don't Fall Off
Team Strategy
Survival

[kila58]

Remember guys, you can't get too specific. If someone made a gamemode that didn't fit these descriptions they would feel pressured trying to put it into one. Maybe a Misc. Category?

[Teddi]

Really, the problem with categories is they're meant to be a catch-all. It still doesn't solve the issue of players using the legacy browser.

[MrOmNomNom3]

I have to say the reason is this:
When you are limited you are more creative.
Since Gmod isn't limited at all to what you can do, most people end up coming in with a blank, because since you can do ANYTHING, you think of too much and end up not being able to choose what to do.

That's what I think anyway.

[mdmrzk]

[QUOTE=MrOmNomNom3;45846219]I have to say the reason is this:
When you are limited you are more creative.
Since Gmod isn't limited at all to what you can do, most people end up coming in with a blank, because since you can do ANYTHING, you think of too much and end up not being able to choose what to do.

That's what I think anyway.[/QUOTE]

I don't think so, I mean, yes, if we make limits people will be more creative, but even without, that dosen't kill the creativity as it does right now.

[kibble]

I'm all for a category system, but how will this be enforced if it is up to server owners to set whatever category they want their gamemode in? As already visible, children who buy coderhire scripts want to change their gamemode name because they think their server is unique - how would you stop them from setting their server category to the most popular or one that is completely irrelevant.

[Da Space Core]

[QUOTE=kibble;45848082]I'm all for a category system, but how will this be enforced if it is up to server owners to set whatever category they want their gamemode in? As already visible, children who buy coderhire scripts want to change their gamemode name because they think their server is unique - how would you stop them from setting their server category to the most popular or one that is completely irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

just about any system one can come up with will be abused, the problem is right now the server browser is way too biased towards over played gamemodes.

[Хум]

How about have the default server browser choose 5 random gamemodes to display each time you launch GMod? And preferably check so that not all have 'RP' in the name.

Of course, the legacy browser would still be available to people who want to play 1 server, but mot everyone knows how to use it, so that'd introduce the kiddies to some new gamemodes.

[StarFox]

[QUOTE=kibble;45848082]I'm all for a category system, but how will this be enforced if it is up to server owners to set whatever category they want their gamemode in? As already visible, children who buy coderhire scripts want to change their gamemode name because they think their server is unique - how would you stop them from setting their server category to the most popular or one that is completely irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

You could add a tag and a server would obviously only be able to be put in one category. Servers without the tag would be put in Misc or Others. You could add a blacklist and every server in this blacklist would be forced into the Misc / Others category for not being in the right category if the owner refuses to edit it after a warning.

[mdmrzk]

[QUOTE=_FR_Starfox64;45849924]You could add a tag and a server would obviously only be able to be put in one category. Servers without the tag would be put in Misc or Others. You could add a blacklist and every server in this blacklist would be forced into the Misc / Others category for not being in the right category if the owner refuses to edit it after a warning.[/QUOTE]

Or why not putting they're gamemodes on a "Dumb" category to punish them :p ?

[Praesdynamite]

[IMG]http://johanslabbert.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Change.jpg[/IMG]
So, with all these ideas and opinions:

[QUOTE]I think Garry's Mod is dying because it lacks some dedicated developers like back in the days. I'm not saying that the developers that are here right now are doing a bad job or are not dedicated, but most of their work is either private for their own servers or own communities, or sold on Coderhire.

Coderhire ruined Garry's Mod because it doesn't even want people to release anything for free anymore (exceptions here and there, yes). Garry's Mod has become a build game with DLCs, a lot of plugins that back in the days would have been considered as "the best addon ever", or "a master piece" are currently sold on Coderhire, because it brings in money. I'm not trying to say that developing for money is bad, not at all, but there's a difference in moral between now and back in the days. Right now everyone is releasing their scripts on Coderhire, and not because they want it to be exclusive, no, they see it as work. They don't see it as a game they like to mod, they see it as work. When Garry's Mod had Garrysmod.org and nothing more, there were a lot of addons and maps that were genuinely good and great, all for free, and the only thing the developer gained was fame (reputation?) and maybe some money from donations.

The moral back then was just to develop something great, right now there are loads of plugins on Coderhire that in theory do the same thing, just slightly different, and they all cost money, separately. The moral right now is trying to get the most money out of your plugin, meaning, people are asking others "How much do you think I should put this on Coderhire for?".

I really don't think that the fact Garry's Mod is openly supporting Coderhire is good because it stimulates a monopoly in the hands of Adam, other people who try to start a competing website will get yelled at by all the people who support Coderhire. It's not fair, it destroys creativity and makes Garry's Mod another of those games where it is all about money.

Again, I do not disagree with developers earning money, but it's the way HOW they earn money and the lack of publicly released addons (because of the coders' moral) that kills Garry's Mod.

Just ask yourself, is there really any variety in Garry's Mod anymore? Everything's starting to be the same, nothing is unique, mainly due to Coderhire.[/QUOTE]

This guy is kind of advertising but we need to do more stuff like this:

[QUOTE]Some of you might remember that I did a bit of work on DarkRP (the 2.2 series) before Fptje took over.

I don't consider Garry's Mod to be dead yet, although a lot of players from 2007 (when I first started coding for it) have obviously grown up / moved on to other games now.

I'm actively writing an RP gamemode which (when released) will be

- A "Public Script"
- Modifyable (kind of how DarkRP is but with a very different file structure and just ONE config file.)

..and I will not be selling it on coderhire. That's right, it will be free (and not under the GPL, either).

I'm doing this because it is the gamemode that I wanted RP to become. I hope people will want to take it as a base and add their own items - that they will want to build communities around it.

I am making sure it is more enjoyable than DarkRP (for me at least!).

It will still be a while yet though, unfortunately (writing a decent gamemode takes time).

Edit:
This is not a DarkRP edit as some might expect. It did contain some DarkRP code originally (from a 7 year old version) but all of it has now gone, the files are completely reorganized, there is a new hud, new organizations system, locks and the ability to give keys to other public and private organizations, NLR is just part of the game, etc. It's coming along but I won't go into more detail yet since I have learned that it can be foolish to show something off too much before having something people can play otherwise they get too impatient. This has been on the backburner for 7 years so I can do patience... but my own patience has run out with DarkRP so I'm seeing how quickly I can get it done.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

Join if you are interested in developing Garry's Mod:

crazyscouter posted:
Feel free to join this. Most of the active developers here are a part of it.
For more ideas just scan this whole thread section.
[/QUOTE]
We need to do something about this. At this point this thread is just words and I can tell you that this thread is eventually going to hit the dust. So instead of ideas of how we can make Garrys Mod better, how about we discuss ideas about how we can change Garrys Mod and implement these ideas? I am personally new to the Garrys Mod developer community so I can only suggest ideas and give feed back. I am hoping this can persuade more knowledgeable and connected people into changing Garrys Mod

“You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take.” -Wayne Gretzky - :)