GCC 2014 Results - Garry's Mod

[QUOTE=bitches;44441349]Would the judging take place after that week on the same servers, just without FTP/console access for the devs? Developers might make gamemodes that rely on server settings, which would be messy if everything was moved to one server. You could make an addon to put on each server that makes all players automatically connect to another one of the servers.[/QUOTE] the judging would take place after everyone has tested their gamemode. devs would not have any access at all, but they can leave the server configured. basically the idea is that contestants get full access to the server for a week, and that includes testing and configuring. they can put anything in server.cfg or launch options. i really do not care. after a week i just "mv garrysmod garrysmod_<gamemodename>" and reinstall it from scratch. doesn't sound horribly complicated to me. [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=faceguydb;44441358]I still don't get what evidence there is to support crowds can't make decisions, almost everything supports the opposite. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_the_crowd[/url] People often make the wrong decisions but if the pool is large enough someone usually makes the opposite wrong decision. Now it's not perfect but I think judging down to 1% of inaccuracy would suit this contest just fine. When the crowd had a different opinion as a whole then you all that means is you are part of the deviation, nobody is wrong just opinions don't and shouldn't match. The only problem with this is you have to make sure the people are separated and form an opinion with out coming in contact of each other. With a public vote, that wont happen perfectly, they will have to play together, but we will at least get a cluster of groups that have no contact. The reason we want to keep people apart is so they can form their own opinion. People in groups will follow the trend of the group. It's called conformity, it's a human survival behavior and it's pretty much unavoidable. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity[/url] So many times did I hear kilburn trying to give his opinion and he was cut off by someone else and he never said what he thought after that. It's not so that having the voting be public vote is necessarily the perfect or best way. It's just having a group, selected by one person (I assume Adam) will result in a bias group, that group then playing together will lead to conformity in opinions. That all leads to really shitty results. I can't think of a single worse way to get an accurate measurement of what the gmod community thinks except maybe a group of 4 instead of 5.[/QUOTE] the problem with public judging is that you cannot rely on lots of random people to give their opinions about every single gamemode in a reasonable amount of time. there are ways to passively see how much a gamemode is being liked by the community, but they're not really reliable or foolproof. i believe that having a jury is way better. hell, if it was better to have a public poll, why do we still have judges for game awards? why not just crowdsource them? [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Gran PC;44441247]depending on the number of contestants there will be a certain number of gmod servers available simultaneously. they will all have an entire week, monday to sunday, to test their gamemode. it is their responsibility to free up time to do so. whether they manage to test or not, the server will be taken away after a week.[/QUOTE] also something i forgot to say is that i think it would be even better if there was only one server (or maybe two at most) so players would help the dev test their gamemode if the dev needs help.

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44441391] hell, if it was better to have a public poll, why do we still have judges for game awards? why not just crowdsource them?[/QUOTE] If your argument is that it's better because we did it in the past then I guess we should go back to monarchies because democracy will never work, follow the law of the churches, hang people who could possibly be witches and quit using technology that makes public voting on this scale possible and affordable and just send messages using the post. This isn't a debate about how dumb game awards are, you can google that yourself. [QUOTE=Gran PC;44441391]the problem with public judging is that you cannot rely on lots of random people to give their opinions about every single gamemode in a reasonable amount of time.[/QUOTE] Why the hell not. It seems everyone thinks this can't be done. Some how it's impossible to let people submit a review on a gamemode after playing it. Honestly it's not that difficult. I will gladly volunteer to set it up this summer if it is needed. [QUOTE=Gran PC;44441391] also something i forgot to say is that i think it would be even better if there was only one server (or maybe two at most) so players would help the dev test their gamemode if the dev needs help.[/QUOTE] I agree two in rotation not in sync will also help people play the gamemodes they miss when they leave the server during it's rotation.

[QUOTE=faceguydb;44441560]If your argument is that it's better because we did it in the past then I guess we should go back to monarchies because democracy will never work, follow the law of the churches, hang people who could possibly be witches and quit using technology that makes public voting on this scale possible and affordable and just send messages using the post.[/QUOTE] yes that is completely relevant thank you for your feedback. im done here.

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44441604]why do we still have judges for game awards? why not just crowdsource them?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Gran PC;44441604]yes that is completely relevant thank you for your feedback. im done here.[/QUOTE] Anyways. The point being made her is the contest was planed to have this type of voting, that never happened, the contest had rules that where ignored, the had promises about format that never happened, and the was meant to have fair judging and that went bottom up. This is what I imagine. Any number of servers running the gamemodes in a loop. At the end of each gamemodes play time (either they bailed out early or they hit a timelimit) a menu comes up as a survey that the players can selects criteria based scores about the game. The same way judges are meant to. They give it a 1-10 for Gameplay, In Game Art, UI/Hud, Closeness to Theme, Use of Twist, etc. These are just logged in a database and at the end we run some simple functions to aggregate the scores. If some gamemode gets a little less players because of how the rotation plays out and times zones affect it that is ok because it's not about how many people rank it, its bout what the people that play it think.

[QUOTE=faceguydb;44441781]Anyways. The point being made her is the contest was planed to have this type of voting, that never happened, the contest had rules that where ignored, the had promises about format that never happened, and the was meant to have fair judging and that went bottom up. This is what I imagine. Any number of servers running the gamemodes in a loop. At the end of each gamemodes play time (either they bailed out early or they hit a timelimit) a menu comes up as a survey that the players can selects criteria based scores about the game. The same way judges are meant to. They give it a 1-10 for Gameplay, In Game Art, UI/Hud, Closeness to Theme, Use of Twist, etc. These are just logged in a database and at the end we run some simple functions to aggregate the scores. If some gamemode gets a little less players because of how the rotation plays out and times zones affect it that is ok because it's not about how many people rank it, its bout what the people that play it think.[/QUOTE] and then people would just vote randomly to get that screen out of their face.

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44441837]and then people would just vote randomly to get that screen out of their face.[/QUOTE] The screen wouldn't go away, we would give them a timer before the next gamemode. I wouldn't force anyone to vote and giving a bullshit vote has no advantage, nothing changes.

[QUOTE=faceguydb;44441859]The screen wouldn't go away, we would give them a timer before the next gamemode. I wouldn't force anyone to vote and giving a bullshit vote has no advantage, nothing changes.[/QUOTE] how does nothing change? also, giving a 1-10 score is not really what i had in mind. i was thinking of actually writing proper reviews instead of "9/10 its ok". that way the reviews are actually constructive. guess helping devs make good gamemodes isn't very high in your priority list? [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] hey in any case you're free to organize your own gamemode contest just like i will be. i am not affiliated with anyone here to run it, i'm just doing it myself out of pocket for fun.

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44441391]the judging would take place after everyone has tested their gamemode. devs would not have any access at all, but they can leave the server configured. also something i forgot to say is that i think it would be even better if there was only one server (or maybe two at most) so players would help the dev test their gamemode if the dev needs help.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=faceguydb;44441781]Anyways. The point being made her is the contest was planed to have this type of voting, that never happened, the contest had rules that where ignored, the had promises about format that never happened, and the was meant to have fair judging and that went bottom up. This is what I imagine. Any number of servers running the gamemodes in a loop. At the end of each gamemodes play time (either they bailed out early or they hit a timelimit) a menu comes up as a survey that the players can selects criteria based scores about the game. The same way judges are meant to. They give it a 1-10 for Gameplay, In Game Art, UI/Hud, Closeness to Theme, Use of Twist, etc. These are just logged in a database and at the end we run some simple functions to aggregate the scores. If some gamemode gets a little less players because of how the rotation plays out and times zones affect it that is ok because it's not about how many people rank it, its bout what the people that play it think.[/QUOTE] I think a select amount of servers in several area's (I can provide one in Aus) that are all running the exact same thing, and all on a timer, with ratings at the end as said above would be a great way. If you're still worried about how that may pan out, then you could 50:50 it with a judging panel, and combine the results from both. Judges would give reviews, Players on the server would give a bigger variety of votes.

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44441865]how does nothing change? also, giving a 1-10 score is not really what i had in mind. i was thinking of actually writing proper reviews instead of "9/10 its ok". that way the reviews are actually constructive. guess helping devs make good gamemodes isn't very high in your priority list?[/QUOTE] What do you mean "how does nothing change?", there is an absence of action. You click submit on the review and goes thank you. Nothing changes, the play doesn't get a Nobel peace prize, the server doesn't change early just for them, just nothing happens. People won't submit reviews because they are lazy, it would be much easier to just do nothing. You know you are absolutely right. I mean if I got a score of 2/10 on UI I wouldn't have any clue what I should change, it's probably an issue with the spawning or something that people don't like, that's it. Letting people vote is dumb because 5 people should speak for all of them. Judges comments like "really fucking shit" and "is fun because it requires teamwork and shit" really help a developer more than public opinion on selected criteria by far. [QUOTE=sacred1337;44441961]I think a select amount of servers in several area's (I can provide one in Aus) that are all running the exact same thing, and all on a timer, with ratings at the end as said above would be a great way.[/QUOTE] I think one server in America, one in Europe, and one in Australia would cover most of the players so they wont have ping issue. I have a us box I would donate, cover Europe and servers are sorted.

[QUOTE=faceguydb;44442217]You know you are absolutely right. I mean if I got a score of 2/10 on UI I wouldn't have any clue what I should change, it's probably an issue with the spawning or something that people don't like, that's it. Letting people vote is dumb because 5 people should speak for all of them. Judges comments like "really fucking shit" and "is fun because it requires teamwork and shit" really help a developer more than public opinion on selected criteria by far.[/QUOTE] what if you get 2/10 on gameplay? what exactly is it about the gameplay that is broken? maybe the rounds are too short? too long? no replay value? [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] also why the hell are you assuming the reviews will be along the lines of "really fucking shit"? do you think im going to choose the same judges? are you just being naïve on purpose? [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] one last note, i find it kinda amusing how you weren't complaining until the results were announced. funny, huh?

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44442240]what if you get 2/10 on gameplay? what exactly is it about the gameplay that is broken? maybe the rounds are too short? too long? no replay value? [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] also why the hell are you assuming the reviews will be along the lines of "really fucking shit"? do you think im going to choose the same judges? are you just being naïve on purpose? [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] one last note, i find it kinda amusing how you weren't complaining until the results were announced. funny, huh?[/QUOTE] I never complained about the results. Also it's a bit hard to complain about the way judging happened, before judging happens. I know I am pretty awesome, but not so much as to see the future.

[QUOTE=faceguydb;44442217]You know you are absolutely right. I mean if I got a score of 2/10 on UI I wouldn't have any clue what I should change, it's probably an issue with the spawning or something that people don't like, that's it. Letting people vote is dumb because 5 people should speak for all of them. Judges comments like "really fucking shit" and "is fun because it requires teamwork and shit" really help a developer more than public opinion on selected criteria by far.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I keep trying to believe that you're simply frustrated at how this GCC was planned out but at this point I think you're just being a really really sore loser. Yes the GCC was poorly organized, we all got that already and it's nice to suggest alternatives so we don't repeat the same mistakes. However all I see is you complaining because the judges didn't like your gamemode. And because of that, you're trying to convince yourself that you would have had a chance if the community voted instead. Plus you didn't seem so upset about this contest before the results were announced. You didn't even seem to mind the "really fucking shit" part. Of course you'd have nothing to say if you had won.

[QUOTE=_Kilburn;44442390]I'm sorry, I keep trying to believe that you're simply frustrated at how this GCC was planned out but at this point I think you're just being a really really sore loser. Yes the GCC was poorly organized, we all got that already and it's nice to suggest alternatives so we don't repeat the same mistakes. However all I see is you complaining because the judges didn't like your gamemode. And because of that, you're trying to convince yourself that you would have had a chance if the community voted instead. Plus you didn't seem so upset about this contest before the results were announced. You didn't even seem to mind the "really fucking shit" part. Of course you'd have nothing to say if you had won.[/QUOTE] You are right, this contest went perfect, you handled judging exactly as was claimed and it was very well handled at that. All the gamemodes followed the rules and if they didn't I am sure you would take action. I haven't been talking about how judging should be handled int he future this whole time I just been being a sore loser complaining about how I didn't win. I never offered to have myself removed from future competitions to beable aiding in making sure everything goes smooth and fair, and I never offered up any of my time, resources or thoughts. I only been complaining about the competition. I mean I didn't even offer up some honest words to the contestants. I am just a selfish little prick because I believe people should be honest and that everyone who plays gmod isn't a complete moron. Does this help you: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1352549&p=44405763#post44405763[/url] [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=adamdburton;43634073] The format for this GCC is a little different that it has been in the past. Instead of telling you a theme and twist, you [b]suggest your own[/b], and then those suggestions are [b]voted for by others[/b]. Once the theme and twist have been voted for and decided, entries open up for anyone. After a month of development time, a few servers will host all of the (playable) entries for a week, and then entry voting starts. Unlike previous contests, this one will not be judged by a select few, and instead [b]judged by members of the community[/b]. You must play on the entries on the GCC hosted servers for a short time before being able to vote for them when the play testing segment ends. Once the votes are in and closed, the winners will be announced and prizes given out.[/QUOTE] Not trying to be mean to you, but you put yourself in charge of judging, you where responsible for that. I added you on steam before the judging and asked you if you need assistance, I was there before judging to help. Those bold points aren't even me, that's how they are in the thread. Why? They are kind of important. Sure I can come off as rude or mean, but that's what happens when honest and bullshit collide. [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] Know what, fuck it. This contest will be great next year because you said so. Happy?

I've seen some suggestions about leaving the voting up to the public, but that's what we did with the themes/twist originally, wasn't it? You even quoted Adam in the post above: [quote]The format for this GCC is a little different that it has been in the past. Instead of telling you a theme and twist, you suggest your own, and then those suggestions are voted for by others.[/quote] If I recall, wasn't everyone really unhappy with this and kept asking for change, so doesn't that give some indication that leaving judgement up to a public audience would also make people grumpy?

[QUOTE=NiandraLades;44442735]I've seen some suggestions about leaving the voting up to the public, but that's what we did with the themes/twist originally, wasn't it? You even quoted Adam in the post above: If I recall, wasn't everyone really unhappy with this and kept asking for change, so doesn't that give some indication that leaving judgement up to a public audience would also make people grumpy?[/QUOTE] I would have loved to see what would have came out of the stricter theme before. Procedural generation or w/e it was. People vote in mass on the site, then a few complain in the thread and then to try to make everyone happy he ignores the mass and only listens to the few. It's the exact problem I am getting at, and if you think that is unbias I really don't think I can make you believe other wise.

Do you really think that if a huge dev with a fanatical community submitted something, it wouldn't dwarf over small devs' gamemodes in a public vote, no matter the quality? [editline]3rd April 2014[/editline] Arguments aside, I'm not a fan of even categorized voting (1-10 polish, 1-10 idea, etc), compared to discussion. My preferred judging method would be three to ten well-selected users discussing and coming to an agreement on the ranking.

[QUOTE=faceguydb;44442797]I would have loved to see what would have came out of the stricter theme before. Procedural generation or w/e it was. People vote in mass on the site, then a few complain in the thread and then to try to make everyone happy he ignores the mass and only listens to the few. It's the exact problem I am getting at, and if you think that is unbias I really don't think I can make you believe other wise.[/QUOTE] yes, removing the theme was absolutely stupid in my opinion. finally something we can agree on!

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44443287]yes, removing the theme was absolutely stupid in my opinion. finally something we can agree on![/QUOTE] Absolutely. Creativity isn't having no limits, it's finding a way to overcome the limits.

man this contest was dope ! everything when according to plan ! Bomberman won fair and square and no one broke rule 7 ... Like its really awesome how EA gave that guy the right to the song from battlefield heroes. Im sure yall got written permissions. Also kilburn is absolutely right ! everything he says makes total sense. Thank you facepunch for giving us this contest in the first place. I wish max could have submitted his opinion because he is clearly the best guy for the job. He read all of the help menu before asking questions. For real cant wait till next year when Melonic the Hedgemelon wins the contest. [URL="sarcasm"][/URL]

I find it funny how the guy who made Pedobear Escape 2, the gamemode which i found the most distasteful, is the one who is complaining the most. Maybe if you themed your gamemode on something else it would have done better. I don't care if you "Don't endorse rape" or "Don't endorse pedophilia" in real life, the topics and subject you chose to base your game off of is disgusting and morally wrong. Even if the gamemode had the slightest chance of getting 3rd place or above, I would have done everything in my power to prevent you from getting any prize money. Someone who makes a game about a pedophile bear chasing you, and if you are caught your character is raped, does not deserve a penny. Rape is real, pedophilia is real, it's not something you should make a video game about, that's sick.

strongly worded notions aside, to me the purpose of the GCC is to fund and inspire new TTT-quality gamemodes that represent garrysmod as a whole, to boost sales; naturally the pedobear meme is something to be distanced from in this regard [editline]5th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Remscar;44457883]I find it funny how the guy who made Pedobear Escape 2, the gamemode which i found the most distasteful, is the one who is complaining the most. Maybe if you themed your gamemode on something else it would have done better. I don't care if you "Don't endorse rape" or "Don't endorse pedophilia" in real life, the topics and subject you chose to base your game off of is disgusting and morally wrong. Even if the gamemode had the slightest chance of getting 3rd place or above, I would have done everything in my power to prevent you from getting any prize money. Someone who makes a game about a pedophile bear chasing you, and if you are caught your character is raped, does not deserve a penny. Rape is real, pedophilia is real, it's not something you should make a video game about, that's sick.[/QUOTE] [editline]5th April 2014[/editline] but i don't think he was complaining just because he lost; he had a lot of valid points that should be considered in proper planning of future GCCs

I couldn't even play half of the gamemodes but my tie for 1st in terms of fun is melon bomber and pedobear escape 2. Anyway, too bad the judges have moral agendas and the contest was poorly ran. Rape and pedophilia is real but I guess murder, arson, theft, and bombings aren't. I think pbe2 would be higher in ranks if pedobear was a different sprite that impaled you, dismembered you, then smeared your entrails all over the map while your guy makes agonizing screaming noises. They all get old after a while. Nobody made these with lasting appeal as their primary focus. But you guys are retarded if you think people can't see through you.

Both parties have a few extremely valid points; you’re just failing to see the other side’s view In my opinion you should use the feedback from both parties to focus your attention on the next GCC instead of moaning about the result of this one. Sure it was poorly organised, but adam was caught up in family affairs (iirc) and Kilburn did a pretty good job considering he had to manage the next gmod update as well I think the fact that the last contest produced actual money and winners will be more incentive for the next pool of contestants. Plus all the people who simply didn't have any time to compete in this contest (myself included). So maybe for the next contest (IMO): - Themes and twist from the community ([i]don’t change it when the vocal minority who didn’t vote for the winner inevitably complain[/i]) - Have more than one person in full control - Organise staff better, figure out a judging date and time a few weeks prior I’m sure other people have more ideas So at least this contest got results, and more importantly - [i]we can learn from what did and didn't work[/i]. with some improvements I’m excited to see what the next one will foster

[QUOTE=JetBoom;44458528]I couldn't even play half of the gamemodes but my tie for 1st in terms of fun is melon bomber and pedobear escape 2.[/QUOTE] That's because they're the only two gamemodes that have been hosted on multiple servers. The others barely received any exposure. [QUOTE=JetBoom;44458528]Anyway, too bad the judges have moral agendas and the contest was poorly ran. Rape and pedophilia is real but I guess murder, arson, theft, and bombings aren't. I think pbe2 would be higher in ranks if pedobear was a different sprite that impaled you, dismembered you, then smeared your entrails all over the map while your guy makes agonizing screaming noises. They all get old after a while. Nobody made these with lasting appeal as their primary focus. But you guys are retarded if you think people can't see through you.[/QUOTE] I don't know what the other judges based their reviews on but I don't mind rape jokes at all (and actually found the death animation funny) and I still thought the gamemode was boring. We already went through that argument. The fact that the gamemode is distasteful to some is only secondary, and I would honestly have given it bonus points for that if it was actually fun. He took risks by taking a terrible meme and trying to turn it into something fun, but it simply didn't pay off. Better luck next time. The contest is already over and we already agreed to select the judges more carefully next time, I don't see why we're still talking about this. All the gamemode contests so far (even the Fretta one) were judged by a few select member of the community and no one ever complained about that. I wanted to make up for the delayed judging by letting everyone watch the judging process, and it obviously turned out to be a terrible idea because the other judges weren't prepared for it so I just won't do it again. Public voting would be a disaster because it would all come down to popularity and original gamemodes would never be given a chance. There's nothing left to argue about.

Well, as far as I can see, Remscar and I were the only two judges in the OP to mention the theme being a bit distasteful, meaning there were three others who either didn't care about it or liked it. Let's quickly ask some of the people in this thread. Guys, what do you personally think of Pedobear? Like, do you think it's funny or dull or what.

i played it with a few people and found it incredibly boring to play. don't find the pedobear meme very funny either but it just wasn't fun to play since all you do is run in circles

The meme itself is stale because it's one of the oldest memes around. I don't mind rape jokes (or any other jokes people may find "in bad taste") but if the joke repeats itself over and over it's only a matter of time until it stops tickling your funny bone. That being said, there's only so many times you can run around in circles before it gets boring. Unless you're a child that easily forgets what it's been doing for the past few minutes (if not seconds) you're likely to get bored of the gamemode pretty soon.

[QUOTE=NiandraLades;44458875]Well, as far as I can see, Remscar and I were the only two judges in the OP to mention the theme being a bit distasteful, meaning there were three others who either didn't care about it or liked it. Let's quickly ask some of the people in this thread. Guys, what do you personally think of Pedobear? Like, do you think it's funny or dull or what.[/QUOTE] the meme itself is pretty stupid. the gamemode is pretty repetitive.

[QUOTE=Gran PC;44440870]if everything pans out as intended i will be hosting an 'Original Gamemode Contest' this summer. something i was thinking about to avoid trouble for everyone would be to allow every contestant to use my gmod server for one whole week to troubleshoot issues with the server. once they're done the install would be backed up. that means that when i judge the gamemodes it would be the exact same setup as they tested it in -- which would lead to people no longer bitching about their gamemode being broken because my server sucks. does that sound any good?[/QUOTE] Would we be able to run our own dedicated servers for you guys to judge on? If I were to enter I'd prefer to test/develop on my own machine.

[QUOTE=rbreslow;44459704]Would we be able to run our own dedicated servers for you guys to judge on? If I were to enter I'd prefer to test/develop on my own machine.[/QUOTE] no