On top of what Falco said:
The concept of public banlists itself is flawed to the core. They are biased and there's always a good fraction of the bans being given out by intolerant people with a superiority complex or people who lack critical thinking and ban on the spot without analyzing situations.
There's already been a perfect display of a banlist(/anti-cheat) that got abused to hell and back because its creator regularly doled out bans to people he personally hated or were part of certain groups.
It's not a matter of "if you don't like it then don't use it", there's a way bigger picture to take into account. Hundreds of server owners are under the illusion that a public banlist is like updating their antivirus' virus database, but the difference is that this database is maintained externally and there's no job on the line to discourage people from tampering with the database for malicious gains or for personal vendettas.
This addon would not get as much flak if it was a local ban database that could at most be shared by multiple servers owned by the same group/community (the way SourceBans does). But instead, it's just a leap of faith where people have to trust that the system won't be abused, but people aren't machines and are often controlled by emotions so there is a possibility that the system will be abused.
So the safest route for something like this would be to localize the database so owners have to maintain their own, and will be in turn punished if they abuse it instead of granting people maintaining a single main database and who are disconnected from those communities the ability to temper with all the servers.
And how does SteamRep matter in this? And all the other services related to trading and scamming? And even community banlists, it's absolutely basic knowledge that every communities have different rules and blanket banning someone from most servers because they irritated a sensitive community is just completely unreasonable.
[QUOTE=Uke;51126730]The first thing is taking everybodies work for granted and post dumb comments with no respect. I mean if I release my script here it's meant to increase the value of the community in some way (I do it for you and it costs too much of my time just get bs comments). I know that not everybody can possibly like it. But why can't you just ignore the stuff then or give constructive, reasonable, respectful and useful feedback? I'd just do the same as I respect everyone right away as fellow gmod player but most of the reactions here are just seem plain unfriendly when the content doesn't match your conception.[/QUOTE]
People are able to appreciate work for what it is, but sometimes no matter the intention behind the work it can contain sloppy/unstable or exploitable code that causes people to react boldly. And sometimes there are cases like this one where the root of the concept itself is harmful and contains issues and abuse potential. The internet can be harsh sometimes, and your work has as much of a right to be appreciated or praised as it has the right to be disliked or hated, and it's your job as a content creator to not let it get to you if you choose to publish your work (people will keep bashing on you if you keep reacting to every single criticism).
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]A: A proper conversation starts with text. And only few provide useful text for a proper conversation. I'm didn't mean to attack you but challenge them to join the conversation. I'd prefer anyone I made a screenshot of to defend themself instead you doing it for them. Thats my point.[/QUOTE]
Ratings are frequently used to quickly display agreement or disagreement and can often avoid repeated arguments, it doesn't matter what the name of one is as you can practically categorize them as positive and negative, where as an example "dumb" would be a stronger variant of disagreement. Trying to call out people for rating you is a good way to get shamed for it, and making a good portion of your posts dedicated to that is practically the same as getting worked up over different opinions. Personally this part didn't incite me to post that much, I just wanted to add more things over all the things everyone previously said as you still can't seem to understand how such addons can be harmful to servers and the players.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]Thats propaganda and instigation. Looking at the votes it sadly works well for you.[/QUOTE]
That was merely a jab at someone who has been extremely toxic and harmful to the community by creating a banlist/anti-cheat that he extensively abused to punish those he hated (plus a couple of innocent players he doesn't even know), something that could have happened to the addon from this thread if it was given the chance to spread. Also it's pretty disappointing that you'd dig up year old unrelated posts in an attempt to devaluate someone's opinion and to deviate from the discussion.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]It's not about the relevance it's about improving the quality instead of making the OP delete his post.
Next time you refer to someone doing the same mistakes you could give him examples of how it's done better instead of showing what else posts ended like this. Maybe he gets to the conclusion himself instead of smacking it in his face. (tone)[/QUOTE]
The response above is enough of a proof that this system is flawed. There is no way to salvage this addon, the only way to make it better would be to scrap the entire idea and create something similar but that keeps the banlist localized to a community and maintained by its admins and moderators instead of having a huge exploitable global database.
All in all, maintaining a server is a demanding responsibility and trying to minimize every effort will greatly impact on the health of your community (and possibly of the game if too many servers decide to use public banlists). People should be monitoring and banning people themselves instead of relying on a flawed system. The reason VAC works is because it's a machine that does the job of deciding if a player must be banned game-wide, not a person susceptible to be driven by emotions and vengeance. And only on extreme cases VAC is used to manually ban players, and Valve employees have their job on the line and may lose it if they use VAC for malicious intents.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]
A: A proper conversation starts with text. And only few provide useful text for a proper conversation. I'm didn't mean to attack you but challenge them to join the conversation. I'd prefer anyone I made a screenshot of to defend themself instead you doing it for them. Thats my point.
I even highlighted the IF to make the condition clear thats appended here. No need to feel addressed if the condition doesn't apply. You tend to exaggerate.
About the tone: [URL]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1483607[/URL]
Thats propaganda and instigation. Looking at the votes it sadly works well for you.
[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what you're saying about texts and screenshots here. I don't think I want to know either. This looks like mindless drivel.
You're reasoning in drama. Quit the god damn accusations of [i]propaganda[/i] of all fucking things. I'm sick of the posts saying you [i]expect[/i] dumb ratings, the laughing about actually [i]getting[/i] those dumb ratings, telling people in general that they can't argue and addressing criticism of tone by referring to [u]unrelated[/u] posts in another god damn thread. Stop fucking around and stop trying to find things you don't like about [b]me[/b] when [b]you[/b] are being told off. Your behaviour makes you a [u]massive[/u] pain to argue with.
Right, to your actual points.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]
My point is exactly that it's not a roll of dice but depending on proper data analysis.
[/QUOTE]
You've mentioned cluster analysis and neural networks. Both brilliant pieces of technology, but you haven't described in the slighest how you would want to use them. Judging by the way you've talked about them, I'm not sure you know how those technologies work, are implemented or even they calculate from a given set of data. Unless you have a specific application of those technologies or a specific application of "data analysis", there's little to address here. For any kind of data analysis you need data, and I don't even know what specific data you're talking about here or what properties you want to get from that data.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]
C: Thats where our opinions differ. The person whos banned could notice if the server affects him.
[/QUOTE]
Of [i]course[/i] they notice. Imagine this situation:
I create and release a big ban list addons which contains all terrible people I know of: Cheaters, pirates, real life criminals, mingebags and you. Thousands of them, and you, because by god, I don 't like you. It's a hypothetical situation of course. Let's just say I'd be prepared to make this addon [u]just[/u] to have you in it too.
I create like an advertisement in DarkRP, telling all the server owners to download my anti-cunt addon. This turns out to be hugely successful: almost all servers run the cunt repellant system and are properly protected by people that I deemed to be terrible.
You try to join a DarkRP server only to find yourself banned. That's where you notice. Before deciding that you'll never play DarkRP again, you come to my thread to complain about the ban being unjustified. You ask to be taken off the list. Do you know what I would say? I'd say [b]NO[/b]. After all, it's clear that (in this hypothetical situation) I really don't like you.
But oh then you ask me for proof of any wrongdoing. I grab some server logs of some mingebag that had joined my server a while ago, find and replace nickname and SteamID before posting it on the forum. "[i]There you go![/i]" I say. [b]You[/b] would know damn well that I'm lying, but quite a few other people are stupid enough to believe me, [i]even[/i] after you tell them that I'm lying.
After all, what [i]proof[/i] do you have that you're innocent? I've given my server log proof, where's your proof? Can you prove to me (or anyone) that you don't minge, don't cheat or haven't raped and murdered someone? Good luck with that. Even if you do find something, I can just say that your proof isn't strong enough and leave the ban in place.
Would you trust me to be the author of a ban list addon, [i]knowing[/i] that I don't like you?
Would/should [i]someone else[/i] trust me if they don't know that I don't like you?
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]
D: Thats what I meant. It's more trustful because it's designed to ban people.
[/QUOTE]
In my hypothetical situation, my addon was designed to ban people, specifically you. By your logic, my addon is trustworthy and you're fucked.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]
It's not about the relevance it's about improving the quality instead of making the OP delete his post.
Next time you refer to someone doing the same mistakes you could give him examples of how it's done better instead of showing what else posts ended like this. Maybe he gets to the conclusion himself instead of smacking it in his face. (tone)
[/QUOTE]
Ideas that cannot withstand criticism are to be rejected. The idea at the base of this addon has time and time again proven to be ultimately indefensible and is therefore to be rejected.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127175]
If you'd design such an addon you openly take the responsibility and the risk of getting called out.
[/QUOTE]
Which in this case happened immediately.
There's one point that I haven't addressed here. That's using not one person's opinion on who should be banned, but that of many. That happens in some crazy malicious addon called MCBans for MineCraft, in which a player's reputation affected by [i]many[/i] servers. Players with a low reputation go on the ban list by default. I've discussed that at length [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1530735&p=50894937&viewfull=1#post50894937]this post[/url], although you need the context of what's said in the rest of the thread to know what I mean.
That'll be the closest thing I can do to address your "data analysis" argument.
[QUOTE=Gamaz;51127456][...][/QUOTE]
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. Some of the information were not as clear to me.
How about making the banlist public? Also one of my point was that theres no banlist but an intelligent reputation system backing it. You can make everything public also trends and changes. To maintain transparency in a way it's useful.
(Not to extend this even further. I just see possible solutions where you just see flaws. I like to discuss possible solutions. Most of you... not so much.)
I didn't know about the story of one actually abusing it. Doesn't mean everybody does this mistake.
Until now I saw the dumb rating just as rating an entire post dumb because it's content is useless.
I didn't mean to shame them but asking for their own opinion. (in an ironic way tbh due to not seeing my posts as just completely dumb)
Even if this addon would be the most useless and harmful bs doesn't give you the right of being disrespectful. That just impairs your arguments.
If HEX was toxic he deserves more to be ignored than to be the target of anybodies hate, effectively wasting your time.
The first reply could have been yours and everything would have been fine.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127578]How about making the banlist public?[/QUOTE]
This is the very thing people have been arguing against from the start. Like I and everyone else have already stated multiple times before, the only viable way to make such a system was if the database was maintained by a community and restricted to affect [B]only[/B] the servers of that same community. You wouldn't put people in jail for crimes committed inside another country.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127578]Also one of my point was that theres no banlist but an intelligent reputation system backing it. You can make everything public also trends and changes.[/QUOTE]
Reputation systems are as easily abused as banlists are. See SteamRep, someone's reputation is completely worthless as people give "+rep"'s like candy, and people can easily be influenced to mass "-rep" someone out of spite.
SteamRep even has this notification at the top of the page telling you that reputation weighted by votes is ultimately useless and that you should yourself make the effort to find out if a player is trustworthy or malicious.
[IMG]https://puu.sh/rrREw/50b0d02f8f.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Uke;51127578]I just see possible solutions where you just see flaws.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the flaws greatly outset the benefits. The potential that you see relies purely on human perfection and benevolence, while anything that may be gained from this system is completely destroyed by basic human behavior.
To repeat it one last time and to make it as clear as possible: If you want a ban database you must do it [B]yourself[/B], your community must create its own list of bans and use that list for [B]itself only[/B]. Pushing this database to make it global immediately renders your attempts at improving the game harmful.
[QUOTE=FPtje;51127516]Your behaviour makes you a [U]massive[/U] pain to argue with.[/QUOTE]
Dito. tbh
Points:
I only know those things theoretically but they seem to provide a solution thats yet to be tested. I tried describing the principle what to do with that tools not the actual code.
Ok your point is the abusing. My point is that it still can be solved.
You're refering to people that personally dislike people. I'm expecting a neutral and professional approach in [I] my hypothetical situation[/I]. Just to be able to deal with the raw problem itself rather than turning it down expecting everybody as untrustworthy.
Feel better now?
Yeah you never/barely touched the reputation system in your arguments while I only did. We were talking past one another it seems.
Gamaz, I didn't see your post before posting my own response. It's really well written.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127578]
Even if this addon would be the most useless and harmful bs doesn't give you the right of being disrespectful. That just impairs your arguments.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. Sometimes being blunt (and thus, disrespectful) with criticism can much better convey how you feel about something. When the arguments are valid, being blunt and upfront can be a very good way to communicate an opinion.
One thing I really appreciate about forums like this is that people aren't afraid to tell me when they think I'm being completely ridiculous. I don't take personal offense when I get called out on my actions. This stretches even to ratings. I seriously reconsider what I said and how I said it when I get a pile of boxes.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127578]
How about making the banlist public? Also one of my point was that theres no banlist but an intelligent reputation system backing it.[/QUOTE]
The link in my previous post addresses systems like this. Besides what Gamaz said, please take a look.
[QUOTE=FPtje;51127741]Not necessarily. Sometimes being blunt (and thus, disrespectful) with criticism can much better convey how you feel about something. When the arguments are valid, being blunt and upfront can be a very good way to communicate an opinion.
One thing I really appreciate about forums like this is that people aren't afraid to tell me when they think I'm being completely ridiculous. I don't take personal offense when I get called out on my actions. This stretches even to ratings. I seriously reconsider what I said and how I said it when I get a pile of boxes.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but it just doesn't suit a gaming forum imo. Also feelings make blind when it comes to weigting all solutions reasonablly because you can only think of yours really.
Not being afraid is good but still being polite is better in my opinion.
I guess I'm not used to the boxes then because I rather get the informaion than a blunt response.
[QUOTE=Uke;51127851]Yeah but it just doesn't suit a gaming forum imo. Also feelings make blind when it comes to weigting all solutions reasonablly because you can only think of yours really.
Not being afraid is good but still being polite is better in my opinion.
I guess I'm not used to the boxes then because I rather get the informaion than a blunt response.[/QUOTE]
Why even post and bring this thread back?
what if we make a global ban list and put all the people who make global ban lists on it :downs:
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