General Linux Chat and Small Questions v. Install Arch
4,946 replies, posted
[QUOTE=kaukassus;39436971]Source: [url]https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman#Q:_An_update_to_package_XYZ_broke_my_system.21[/url][/QUOTE]
And that's exactly what I'm criticizing. I don't want to have to look on an operating system's website to know if an update will fuck up my system or not.
Sabayon seems to do better, which is what I'm running now (so don't tell me not to use Arch, I'm already not using it). Its update progress is MUCH more verbose than Pacman. I love this.
[QUOTE=FPtje;39436935]When an update is run of which the Arch developers know it will fuck shit up (like they post on their blog), simply break the update progress, tell the user to read the blog or w/e, and ask to continue (yes/no).[/QUOTE]
pacmatic can do just that if you [i]really[/i] don't want to read arch-announce.
Watching YouTube on Linux Mint, I get green static
[QUOTE=kaukassus;39436971]Source: [url]https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman#Q:_An_update_to_package_XYZ_broke_my_system.21[/url][/QUOTE]
Meanwhile, if you use Gentoo, it says pretty loudly "OY WE GOT NEWS ABOUT SOME PACKAGES" and you can read it right there in your terminal.
I shouldn't have to wait for my web browser to load just to see if udev's going to do anything weird this update.
What are the pros of using Arch vs. Ubuntu? If I wanted to remove ubuntu from a dual boot machine (currently windows / ubuntu) and replace Ubuntu with Arch, what's the best way to do so?
[QUOTE=lavacano;39439456]Meanwhile, if you use Gentoo, it says pretty loudly "OY WE GOT NEWS ABOUT SOME PACKAGES" and you can read it right there in your terminal.
I shouldn't have to wait for my web browser to load just to see if udev's going to do anything weird this update.[/QUOTE]
Pacman shouldn't need to tell it to you either, though. It should just handle fetching packages from repositories and installing them.
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense to integrate a news system into what's supposed to be a package manager. If you want news with it you write a wrapper or alternate client.
[QUOTE=esalaka;39439559]Pacman shouldn't need to tell it to you either, though. It should just handle fetching packages from repositories and installing them.
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense to integrate a news system into what's supposed to be a package manager. If you want news with it you write a wrapper or alternate client.[/QUOTE]
well if you don't want notifications for it, that's one thing
But why in the fuck does it not ship with a fucking program, separate or otherwise, to read package news? Why should I be forced to load up a full blown web browser, or barrage my email with news for zillions of packages (of which only 5% I actually have installed) for important information like "We're going to drastically fuck up your system by pretty much deleting /lib, better copy all your shit over to /usr/lib quick!"
[editline]1st February 2013[/editline]
And another thing that absolutely fucking pisses me off about Arch is its developers and most of its userbase are completely fucking deaf to any sort of criticism. If I were to go to them and ask that very same question I asked just now, they'd all start screaming "THE ARCH WAY" at the top of their lungs and refuse to actually offer an answer.
See, at least here if I start ranting against Arch, I get some sort of reasoning as to why they do things (see: just now, with esalaka's view on not wanting package managers to handle package news)
[QUOTE=lavacano;39439648]well if you don't want notifications for it, that's one thing
But why in the fuck does it not ship with a fucking program, separate or otherwise, to read package news? Why should I be forced to load up a full blown web browser, or barrage my email with news for zillions of packages (of which only 5% I actually have installed) for important information like "We're going to drastically fuck up your system by pretty much deleting /lib, better copy all your shit over to /usr/lib quick!"
[editline]1st February 2013[/editline]
And another thing that absolutely fucking pisses me off about Arch is its developers and most of its userbase are completely fucking deaf to any sort of criticism. If I were to go to them and ask that very same question I asked just now, they'd all start screaming "THE ARCH WAY" at the top of their lungs and refuse to actually offer an answer.
See, at least here if I start ranting against Arch, I get some sort of reasoning as to why they do things (see: just now, with esalaka's view on not wanting package managers to handle package news)[/QUOTE]
The "It's the <X> way" thing happens pretty much everywhere, though.
Also, what I'd like to note is that the distro-breaking updates are kind of really rare. Additionally, I've noticed that they mostly don't go through at all without user intervention - when a routine pacman -Syu doesn't finish you can go and see if there's news about it on the Arch website. Basically the only way to even break your system by accident most of the time is forcing an update which generally is a bad idea.
Which is also part of the reason I don't think pacman needs a news system. It just breaks horribly if there's a major update.
(Also, I think it doesn't ship with a separate program to read package news because there aren't package news per se. They're just... News.)
[editline]1st February 2013[/editline]
Basically, you're right about a lot of things there but things that drastically fuck up your system usually drastically fuck up updates in that pacman throws errors and cancels the update.
[QUOTE=lavacano;39439648]barrage my email with news for zillions of packages (of which only 5% I actually have installed) for important information like "We're going to drastically fuck up your system by pretty much deleting /lib, better copy all your shit over to /usr/lib quick!"[/QUOTE]
arch-announce (the only one that really matters unless you're on [testing]) is very quiet with only one or two posts a month or so.
I had the same issue with steam, so I just deleted all steam related folders ( .steam and Steam ) and reinstalled. It now resides in a more sensible location ( .local/share/Steam/ or something like that ) and it boots fine. You lose all downloaded games, but hell the thing [b]is[/b] still in beta so the best you can do is report the problem.
[editline]1st February 2013[/editline]
Also, does anyone find it slightly gratifying to see a large update have a negative net upgrade size? Just went to update Arch and out of 72 packages, including Linux, LibreOffice, Blender, etc. there is a net upgrade size of -1.44 MiB. Also the compression is substantial: I only have to download ~300MiB for ~1200MiB worth of uncompressed packages.
As of late it seems like Arch is shrinking, yeah
[QUOTE=FPtje;39438504]And that's exactly what I'm criticizing. I don't want to have to look on an operating system's website to know if an update will fuck up my system or not.
Sabayon seems to do better, which is what I'm running now (so don't tell me not to use Arch, I'm already not using it). Its update progress is MUCH more verbose than Pacman. I love this.[/QUOTE]
Ohh man I bought this manual car. It's such a fucking piece of shit. This is nuts I have to switch speeds manually, I mean what in the fuck. Plus, every time I do, I risk fucking up my car if I don't use the clutch properly. This is fucking stupid. This manual car should be switching speeds automatically. It's not a hard fix at all. A shit ton of cars already switch speeds automatically, I don't know why they couldn't do it. Seems simple enough.
[editline]1st February 2013[/editline]
On a side note, I found out why my upgrade failed
Here's the yaourt man page:
[code]
--sucre
Equivalent to -Sfyyua --devel --noconfirm
[/code]
The import part to note here is the f in -Sfyyua. That is the force options. Just about everywhere it says to "not use --force" This is with good reason, that thing will fuck shit up if you're not careful.
Good work there yaourt, you're magical update everything shortcut will fuck up just about anything. I learned my lesson, no more yaourt for updates.
[QUOTE=Boris-B;39443899]Ohh man I bought this manual car. It's such a fucking piece of shit. This is nuts I have to switch speeds manually, I mean what in the fuck. Plus, every time I do, I risk fucking up my car if I don't use the clutch properly. This is fucking stupid. This manual car should be switching speeds automatically. It's not a hard fix at all. A shit ton of cars already switch speeds automatically, I don't know why they couldn't do it. Seems simple enough.
[editline]1st February 2013[/editline]
On a side note, I found out why my upgrade failed
Here's the yaourt man page:
[code]
--sucre
Equivalent to -Sfyyua --devel --noconfirm
[/code]
The import part to note here is the f in -Sfyyua. That is the force options. Just about everywhere it says to "not use --force" This is with good reason, that thing will fuck shit up if you're not careful.
Good work there yaourt, you're magical update everything shortcut will fuck up just about anything. I learned my lesson, no more yaourt for updates.[/QUOTE]
Oh god my sides (concerning the first part of your post), I couldn't think of suitable metaphor, but this is gold.
I have no problem with people in here bashing any distro, but berating Arch consistently with suggestions that it abandon its basic principles so they don't have to understand how their OS works goes a bit far, and borders on insanity. I understand most people who bash it are no longer using it, so I implore you to let it go. Or, better yet, search for or contribute your own fixes to problems: if you want a wrapper for pacman that fetches any important news, search around and you will find it (I've seen a script which changes the MOTD to the latest post on the archlinux.org site, but I've never used it before because it takes very little effort at all to quickly check the frontpage before an update).
I could sit here and complain about how Ubuntu treats its users like ignorant plebs without enough mind to maintain their own system, but luckily Arch is already a thing so I need only install it instead.
tl;dr there are enough distros out there that Arch has its own place, even if it is a niche which most users find useless.
[editline]1st February 2013[/editline]
And concerning yaourt I've had nothing but trouble in the past. Packer seems a suitable replacement, but for system updates I prefer to use pacman first and then update from the AUR separately.
Also, Steam finally recognizes other distros (this might have happened a while ago):
[code]
Running Steam on arch rolling
STEAM_RUNTIME is enabled automatically on arch
[/code]
And it has an icon in the system tray (even though the actual icon image is missing...).
-snop-
[QUOTE=Boris-B;39443899]Ohh man I bought this manual car. It's such a fucking piece of shit. This is nuts I have to switch speeds manually, I mean what in the fuck. Plus, every time I do, I risk fucking up my car if I don't use the clutch properly. This is fucking stupid. This manual car should be switching speeds automatically. It's not a hard fix at all. A shit ton of cars already switch speeds automatically, I don't know why they couldn't do it. Seems simple enough.
[/QUOTE]
This metaphor does not accurately represent my point, which is that you have to look on an external place.
how about
having to drive to a shop, get out of the car, buy a newspaper, read the newspaper to see if changing gears fucks up your car, get back in the car. Drive, change the gears. If the car shuts down and fails to start, open the bonnet, do the willy dance and shit on the engine.
What is everyone's thought on fedora? I'm going to put fedora on my laptop and desktop in place of ubuntu. Fedora > Ubuntu? What about for dev purposes? I'm a cs major btw, so I'm on my computer coding for quite some time per week. Ima put Arch on my netbook though, there's some features that have really peaked my interests.
[QUOTE=Relaxation;39446423]What is everyone's thought on fedora? I'm going to put fedora on my laptop and desktop in place of ubuntu. Fedora > Ubuntu? What about for dev purposes? I'm a cs major btw, so I'm on my computer coding for quite some time per week. Ima put Arch on my netbook though, there's some features that have really peaked my interests.[/QUOTE]
If you like re-installing, you've found your system!
[QUOTE=T3hGamerDK;39446689]If you like re-installing, you've found your system![/QUOTE]
We used to have Fedora in the labs when I was at uni. Enough said.
[QUOTE=FPtje;39446322]having to drive to a shop, get out of the car, buy a newspaper, read the newspaper to see if changing gears fucks up your car, get back in the car. Drive, change the gears. If the car shuts down and fails to start, open the bonnet, do the willy dance and shit on the engine.[/QUOTE]
It's more like getting in your car, not checking to see if there's an accident on the traffic
announcements, then driving directly into the car pileup.
Just stop with the car metaphors, Arch is not a truck
Arch is an American rustbucket from the 60's where half the car has been replaced with newer parts, but the other half still mostly rust, and it's trying to not fall apart every time you change it.
Might as well buy a cheap, used Toyota from early 2000's, it'll serve you well with little maintenance and you get to focus on what cars are designed for, driving, instead of having to spend weeks on repairing little problems.
Actually, Arch is a chassis with a mechanic waiting for you to instruct it what vehicle you want to drive. Some people [b]actually like cars[/b] and do spend [b]just as much time in the garage[/b] as they do driving.
Arch has a niche where it fits the bill for a basic system very nicely. Why install a system already pre-loaded with anything at all which you might prefer to remove anyway? Why buy a car for the chassis?
[editline]2nd February 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=FPtje;39446322]This metaphor does not accurately represent my point, which is that you have to look on an external place.
how about
having to drive to a shop, get out of the car, buy a newspaper, read the newspaper to see if changing gears fucks up your car, get back in the car. Drive, change the gears. If the car shuts down and fails to start, open the bonnet, do the willy dance and shit on the engine.[/QUOTE]
In terms of metaphors the car falls flat because shifting is inherently done within the car when [b]any[/b] update must actually be downloaded. Updates might come through the radio or something, which you can easily tune to a few channels specifically designed to let you know what these updates might change and how you can make sure the car keeps running.
Hey guys, small problem here.
I made a script to record the output of various commands into txt files, chuck them all in a dated tarball and email it to me. Having some trouble with mail/mailx.
If there's an attachment added it (most of the time) won't send the email at all. When it does send it, it takes a VERY long time to get there. Any email I send with the same command, sans the attachment bit, sends just fine and is received immediately.
I'm using CentOS 6 x64 and mail/mailx version 12.4 7/29/08.
The specific command I'm using is:
[code]
mailx -s "MYSUBJECT - $MDT" -a MYFILE_*.tar.gz myemail@mydomain.com<<MSG
This email was automatically generated at $MDT. This email was sent by my@server and will send again 24 hours from now.
MSG
[/code]
'$MDT' is `date +"%Y/%m/%d %H:%M:%S"`
Any help would be VERY appreciated. I've been trying to get these fucking mails to send for 2 hours now.
if MYFILE_*.tar.gz matches multiple files it could be thinking one of them is the email address, couldn't it?
[QUOTE=esalaka;39448560]if MYFILE_*.tar.gz matches multiple files it could be thinking one of them is the email address, couldn't it?[/QUOTE]
There's only ever one tarball in the working directory. I put the wildcard there because of the timestamp in the tarball's filename.
[QUOTE=Hookerbot9000;39448542]Hey guys, small problem here.
I made a script to record the output of various commands into txt files, chuck them all in a dated tarball and email it to me. Having some trouble with mail/mailx.
If there's an attachment added it (most of the time) won't send the email at all. When it does send it, it takes a VERY long time to get there. Any email I send with the same command, sans the attachment bit, sends just fine and is received immediately.
I'm using CentOS 6 x64 and mail/mailx version 12.4 7/29/08.
The specific command I'm using is:
[code]
mailx -s "MYSUBJECT - $MDT" -a MYFILE_*.tar.gz myemail@mydomain.com<<MSG
This email was automatically generated at $MDT. This email was sent by my@server and will send again 24 hours from now.
MSG
[/code]
'$MDT' is `date +"%Y/%m/%d %H:%M:%S"`
Any help would be VERY appreciated. I've been trying to get these fucking mails to send for 2 hours now.[/QUOTE]
I've never used mail(x), but you can just use SMTP over telnet if you want.
[URL="http://moze.koze.net/?p=113"]This[/URL] seems like a pretty nice beginners guide.
A "clean" way to send the mail through telnet in a bash script or the like is to use echo and sleep to feed SMTP commands into telnet and just hopeing everything goes off without a hitch:
[code]
# Group all of our commands together and pipe output into telnet
(
echo open email.mydomain.com 25
sleep 4
echo helo myemail@mydomain.com
echo mail from: \<myemail@mydomain.com\>
sleep 2
echo rcpt to: \<myemail@mydomain.com\>
sleep 2
# Now we can start composing the message
echo DATA
# All lines _immediately_ after DATA can be headers
echo From: myemail@mydomain.com
echo To: myemail@mydomain.com
echo Subject: Daily Output Log ($MDT)
# Now we need a few headers to indicate we will send attachments inline
echo MIME-Version: 1.0
echo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary='<boundary>'
# Now one newline indicates we will start to send the message body
echo
echo This email was automatically generated at $MDT. This email was sent by my@server and will send again 24 hours from now.
# Not sure if we need a newline here, but I don't think it can hurt
echo
# Now the attachment is preceeded by two hyphens, the boundary, and some header information
echo '--<boundary>'
echo Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
echo Content-Type: text/plain; name="<filename>"
echo Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="<filename>"
# Newline at end of header
echo
# Now insert the encoded file. Not sure how to encode a *.tar.gz so you may have to figure this part out yourself
cat MYFILE_*.tar.gz
# Newline at end of attachment
echo
# End attachment
echo '--<boundary>--'
# A line starting with one . sends the message to the server
sleep 2
echo .
sleep 2
echo quit ) | telnet >output_log.txt
[/code]
Anything in <> braces can be whatever you want so long as it is consistent, and the calls to sleep are to allow for a response in time. This isn't the greatest solution but in most cases it works. If there IS a problem there will at least be a lot of it in output_log.txt so you can debug until you get it working.
If this isn't reliable enough then I have no clue how to get mail(x) working :v:
[B]Disclaimer[/B] I've only ever sent simple messages using this, so I can't assure you this code actually works with attachments... godspeed and good luck.
[editline]2nd February 2013[/editline]
Another note, the Content-Type might be application/gzip or something like that.
Jumped from Mint to a minimal debian install, feels good
I would have used something like arch but I don't see a reason since being so accustomed to Debian
[editline]2nd February 2013[/editline]
Oops, I'm having the weird blue people flash bug after installing the NVIDIA drivers, how do I fix that?
Is there a way to have a background image on Raspbian's console?
[QUOTE=Darkwater124;39450753]Is there a way to have a background image on Raspbian's console?[/QUOTE]
The default is lx(de)terminal, but you can install anything. Do you want transparency or a per-terminal background?
I like Terminator, gnome-term is OK too, but isn't really as functional
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