General Linux Chat and Small Questions v. Install Arch
4,946 replies, posted
Any way to fix the audio crackle with Virtualbox and ALSA?
Pretty annoying :/
Partially fixed it.
[url]http://uscms1.fltech-grid3.fit.edu/diagnostics.php[/url]
i am a noob to linux who is going to install debian tomorrow on my laptop
here goes nothing
c'mon Valve, announce you're gonna do something to encourage/coerce devs into making Linux versions of games, Windows just needs to go, it's the worst modern and relevant OS out there
[QUOTE=The Baconator;37769086]c'mon Valve, announce you're gonna do something to encourage/coerce devs into making Linux versions of games, Windows just needs to go, it's the worst modern and relevant OS out there[/QUOTE]
Valve just bringing steam to Linux will probably be enough
I just hope lazy developers don't start packaging their games with wine instead of actually trying
also sfl beta next month (???)
I don't think valve will leave this as a simple wine wrap with the hope they have put in linux.
[QUOTE=Ol' Pie;37771092]I don't think valve will leave this as a simple wine wrap with the hope they have put in linux.[/QUOTE]
IIRC Valve stated that they wanted to make it easier for the rest of the games on Steam to work on Linux, so even if they're not going to use Wine for their own games, I think maybe they're going to contribute to the Wine project.
You're not going to convince every developer ever, including of games that are no longer maintained and on Steam, to put out a Linux version. It's just not happening.
I mean, I would be fine with WINE if it wasn't so buggy at the moment.
WINE has serious potential, but it isn't very viable for me at the moment (hence why I use a VM instead :v)
[QUOTE=FlubberNugget;37771205]I mean, I would be fine with WINE if it wasn't so buggy at the moment.
WINE has serious potential, but it isn't very viable for me at the moment (hence why I use a VM instead :v)[/QUOTE]
I agree with this, which is why I'd ponder on Valve doing some contributions to Wine. I'm not gonna say it's impossible. Some might say it's unlikely, but if the Linux market share gets an accelerated boost of growth, then that might change some minds around the globe.
[QUOTE=T3hGamerDK;37771355]I agree with this, which is why I'd ponder on Valve doing some contributions to Wine. I'm not gonna say it's impossible. Some might say it's unlikely, but if the Linux market share gets an accelerated boost of growth, then that might change some minds around the globe.[/QUOTE]
Google fund WINE, don't they?
[QUOTE=T3hGamerDK;37771162]You're not going to convince every developer ever, including of games that are no longer maintained and on Steam, to put out a Linux version. It's just not happening.[/QUOTE]
A lot of games are still maintained on Steam. Personally I'd rather have them contribute the changes the WINE without making easy game packaging possible. The last thing we need is a bunch of "Linux" shitty games making the platform look bad because the devs were idiots.
[QUOTE=T3hGamerDK;37771355]but if the Linux market share gets an accelerated boost of growth, then that might change some minds around the globe.[/QUOTE]
So your logic is that if Linux market share gets accelerated growth, people will suddenly contribute more to the project that tries to bring Windows software over due to the poor market share of Linux? I don't see that happening. I hope WINE dies a quick death if Linux happens.
[QUOTE=gparent;37772504]A lot of games are still maintained on Steam. Personally I'd rather have them contribute the changes the WINE without making easy game packaging possible. The last thing we need is a bunch of "Linux" shitty games making the platform look bad because the devs were idiots.
So your logic is that if Linux market share gets accelerated growth, people will suddenly contribute more to the project that tries to bring Windows software over due to the poor market share of Linux? I don't see that happening. I hope WINE dies a quick death if Linux happens.[/QUOTE]
For the purpose of currently maintained and future software, I hope that wine is not used either, but that's not what I'm refering to. I'm refering to old games and applications that are no longer maintaned, but still in use.
[editline]23rd September 2012[/editline]
Honestly I think you're being overly aggressive about it. If Linux does get popular, wine will get less used. Thus, it will no longer be required for use, and developers will cease to look for it, except for the reasons I refered to above.
People shouldn't be working on software that provides a compatibility layer.
People should be working on software that works on all platforms natively.
The more you give shitty compatibility layers to people, the more they'll use it out of laziness, especially as they get better. I don't want Linux to turn into Windows, so yeah, we need to be pretty "aggressive" (way too strong of a word) for it not to happen.
So yeah while it's good for old games, I don't want the rest.
32-bit Windows systems had rather good 16-bit compatibility layers and I never saw people use those that much.
Hence I'm suspecting the key is actually making the developers believe that using this "new" technology is beneficial for their development (which it totally is in my opinion)
Dammit, everytime I try to install Arch, I just end up after reboot on GRUB failing to load linux images.
I should take a deeper look at the Arch Installation guide.
Also, Ubuntu got a bit better since 12.04.01. WAY BETTER.
[QUOTE=Foxconn;37773706]Dammit, everytime I try to install Arch, I just end up after reboot on GRUB failing to load linux images.
I should take a deeper look at the Arch Installation guide.
Also, Ubuntu got a bit better since 12.04.01. WAY BETTER.[/QUOTE]
If you can, maybe installing Grub 2 will help you out. I've had problems with booting up and such that were caused by installing grub1.97.
Solution: Don't install grub during the installation, but instead, before rebooting, chroot into your installation and perform the updates and installation of grub 2. I believe the Arch Wiki even has a guide on this.
[QUOTE=esalaka;37773204]32-bit Windows systems had rather good 16-bit compatibility layers and I never saw people use those that much.
Hence I'm suspecting the key is actually making the developers believe that using this "new" technology is beneficial for their development (which it totally is in my opinion)[/QUOTE]
People didn't use 16-bit that bad because there was a clear advantage to going 32-bit at the time. They didn't need to worry about much else because Microsoft made sure to re implement every bug that applications used so that they kept working (and WINE probably has to do similar things in some places of the code). Windows is its own compatibility layer.
[QUOTE=gparent;37773899]People didn't use 16-bit that bad because there was a clear advantage to going 32-bit at the time.[/QUOTE]
Which sort of is my point: If there is no clear advantage to going native on Linux (Which... frankly, there is: WINE does not work. Making it work better is not a quick job either since there are most likely less active devs on WINE than on Windows.) developers won't do it.
Indie devs are already doing things in a multi-platform way and Humble Bundle sales indicate that on average Linux users are quite ready to pay for their games so it's probably a matter of mitigating development costs for bigger companies, too. It takes a longer time to develop something for several platforms than for just one.
Basically developers need to be convinced that it's better for them to write native Linux games.
[QUOTE=T3hGamerDK;37773816]If you can, maybe installing Grub 2 will help you out.[/QUOTE]
I was installing GRUB 2 all the time and this wasn't working for me anyway.
Maybe I should really take a deeper look at the guide on the wiki...
Workspaces paired with dual monitors
This is sooo good.
[QUOTE=esalaka;37774691]Which sort of is my point: If there is no clear advantage to going native on Linux (Which... frankly, there is: WINE does not work. Making it work better is not a quick job either since there are most likely less active devs on WINE than on Windows.) developers won't do it.
Indie devs are already doing things in a multi-platform way and Humble Bundle sales indicate that on average Linux users are quite ready to pay for their games so it's probably a matter of mitigating development costs for bigger companies, too. It takes a longer time to develop something for several platforms than for just one.
Basically developers need to be convinced that it's better for them to write native Linux games.[/QUOTE]
Glad we completely agree.
[QUOTE=Foxconn;37774915]I was installing GRUB 2 all the time and this wasn't working for me anyway.
Maybe I should really take a deeper look at the guide on the wiki...[/QUOTE]
I haven't used Arch Linux for a looong time, but in case you turn away, I do recommend taking a look at Sabayon, as it provides some of the efficiency of binary distributions, alongside the beauty and sublimity of source based distributions. It's based on Gentoo, and uses Anaconda for the installation.
[QUOTE=gparent;37775157]Glad we completely agree.[/QUOTE]
We agree on everything except the fact that I find WINE development a positive thing as far as I understood
[QUOTE=esalaka;37774691]Which sort of is my point: If there is no clear advantage to going native on Linux (Which... frankly, there is: WINE does not work. Making it work better is not a quick job either since there are most likely less active devs on WINE than on Windows.) developers won't do it.
Indie devs are already doing things in a multi-platform way and Humble Bundle sales indicate that on average Linux users are quite ready to pay for their games so it's probably a matter of mitigating development costs for bigger companies, too. It takes a longer time to develop something for several platforms than for just one.
Basically developers need to be convinced that it's better for them to write native Linux games.[/QUOTE]
And hopefully Valve does this convincing, because Windows is just awful
[QUOTE=esalaka;37775246]We agree on everything except the fact that I find WINE development a positive thing as far as I understood[/QUOTE]
You think developing Wine will make developers switch over. I think that's a bunch of bullshit, because only developers who don't give a shit about Linux actually care about WINE, so I don't see why they would suddenly switch over to substandard support just to please 2-3 people. VALVe on the other hand (who have easily survived without Linux users since the beginning of the company), is working on native ports at the moment, no WINE involved, even though it's a shitload more effort. It's already possible to make native games without WINE, why pour some development in a compatibility layer for a bad OS when it's not even needed?
As much as I don't think older games will get ported over, I don't see how wine patches would help them much either. I'd rather developers spend their time making new games Linux compatible than wasting their time porting older games to a compatibility layer. Spending multiple hundred thousands of dollars a year in dev salary on that seems ridiculous to me.
WINE needs to be around for the same reason DOSBox needs to be around, really.
It's just that right now most games are for Windows and before we get them on Linux, before we get the developers to care, we should get a better compatibility platform.
Not really about getting the devs in here.
[QUOTE=esalaka;37776283]WINE needs to be around for the same reason DOSBox needs to be around, really.[/QUOTE]
The difference is that Windows software is still popular, so you only need WINE if you wrongly insist on using Linux for Windows software. Whereas with DOS, nobody develops for it anymore. Although nowadays you have VMs, so most of the point is moot with regards to Windows / Linux. Only games tend to run slow as fuck on VMs.
[QUOTE=esalaka;37776283]It's just that right now most games are for Windows and before we get them on Linux, before we get the developers to care,[/QUOTE]
I really can't see why spending time on WINE is better than spending time on actual games. In both cases, you're bringing games to Linux, except in one case you're doing it for a compatibility layer that almost nobody dares touching, and in the other case you're bringing native Linux games straight to the platform. In both cases, you have to assign significant developer time on the project, so you might as well spend it somewhere that won't have to be rewritten constantly whenever Windows behavior changes (or existing behavior is found to be different than prior so WINE fixes it).
Would you rather VALVe stop working on porting source and that the Linux cabal starts working on WINE instead? That is, you would give up an AA(A) title, a game distribution platform, various patches to open source drivers, improvements in the Linux kernel and improvements in Ubuntu just so WINE works better for older games? Thinking that this will bring MORE developers to Linux than a successful game company the same thing natively? I don't see it. You think we "need" the layer because nobody bothers going native. With more native games, there's no need. We need devs.
If you don't want VALVe to do it, why would you want other companies to do it? If you want to bring users to Linux, do it in a way that isn't hackish and flimsy.
Anyway, I think my point is as clear as I can make it, so if I can't sway you then we'll just end it there and disagree with each other.
Wouldn't it be easier on the developers to base their Linux engine on their Mac code? That's OpenGL on a UNIX based system right there
[QUOTE=lavacano;37776752]Wouldn't it be easier on the developers to base their Linux engine on their Mac code? That's OpenGL on a UNIX based system right there[/QUOTE]
Do we know they aren't?
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