So, I'm not sure what the general opinion here is of LTT, but they just put out a pretty interesting video regarding Intel's Optane, and making Windows treat it like RAM.
Basically, its latency is so low that it can compensate for a lack of real RAM in a lot of tasks. Even a REALLY severe lack of RAM, like <3GB in a >12GB task, in their tests, it shaved off about half the total time to complete versus low RAM alone, falling somewhere between that and 16GB of real RAM.
That might not sound terribly exciting, but if you're running an Intel platform, Optane is a fraction of the cost of RAM right now, actually resulting in a better cost-to-performance ratio in CPU heavy tasks like Blender. Even games don't seem to mind; since they tend to favor lots of little, occasional reads and writes, the performance difference can be almost imperceptible.
I dunno, I just found it fascinating, considering the current RAM and NAND supply/demand problems combined with high-end workloads seeming to get more demanding month to month. Maybe this could be a reasonable stopgap for CAD and extreme compute tasks until prices settle back down?
Alrighty, thanks guys. I've actually always started new builds from scratch, so being able to go into it this time without reinstalling everything brings a ton of peace of mind.
Now though, I'm trying to pick a CPU cooler. Would be simple, but learned about the liquid-metal thermal pastes, and now I'm too interested, so now I have to narrow it to Copper/Nickel ones.
I'm currently choosing between the Noctua NH and DEEPCOOL GamerStorm ASSASSIN II even though they still have SOME aluminum components. I'm GUESSING the copper/nickel bases are all that matter, because it's not like the gallium is going to leech THROUGH the other metals to the fins... I don't think.
The Noctua seems the safer bet, as people just RAVE over the thing... but damn it, it's just so UGLY. Why those earth-tone colors?
Still, figured I'd ask your opinions on coolers and on the liquid metal stuff in general. I know it's a risk and harder to apply, but it's fine if it just takes patient brushing if it means staving off the 8700K's temps.
Honestly, I'm more concerned about the material shedding while setting the cooler on top of the die. The last few aftermarket coolers I bought made me TERRIFIED of dealing with coolers during a build, because the cooler would end up sliding all over the place as I tried to engage their nerve-racking cross-bracket mounting method, which took considerable force to use.
BUT... from the installation videos I've seen of these new coolers, it looks like they've abandoned that in favor of a more stable, less potentially damaging method, so I don't see why not to try as long as I'm not a total idiot about the application process.
The Noctua is really nice. May as well delid and replace the toothpaste under the IHS with liquid metal too if you're going that far already.
Speaking from experience, Noctua is pretty much untouchable in terms of fan quality and acoustics. I replaced the case fans in the mail server at work with a set of Noctua 120s at full RPM, and I can barely tell the thing's on now.
But yeah, unless you go out of your way to buy their color -customized fans, they're a bit frumpy. Personally I don't care about looks as long as it gets the job done, but I suppose it's a valid concern if you want to build a showcase PC.
i bought a x470 board so i got a free licence for storeMI i was wondering if it would be worth getting a optane disk but i think i would have to upgrade to use all my drives
I've always been a fanboy of the Hyper 212 series of coolers. I'll probably use those til I die
2 360mm extra thick rads with NB E-loops or bust.
Okay, guess the I's have it with the Noctua...
Augh god, this delidding shit looks like a freaking black hole.
Special tools to do it safely... Voids warranty... Tutorials using silicon glue to reseal it after application... People doing heating tests saying the lid glue was the bigger problem and to just let the lid sit freely atop the cpu...
Tap dancing christ, I don't doubt it all helps, but this is seriously jank shit.
What's the difference between using the liquid metal under the lid and between the lid and cooler versus leaving the CPU itself as is and just applying normally?
There are certain lengths I'll go to, but stuff like leaving the lid sitting unglued is just nuts. I'm not a fan of introducing multiple points of failure.
TBH these days the CPU's lid is to prevent damage to the actual processor die. Processors haven't actually needed integrated lids for years; laptop heatsinks, for example, make direct thermal contact with the die.
There are actually water blocks and other things you can buy that mount directly onto a delidded CPU's die, and are by far the most effective way to cool it. And they look jank as fuck.
https://i.imgur.com/lDuFEcK.jpg
Mmm... Okay, so the Noctua is copper, and safe for the LM more or less, apart from the gallium trying to alloy with the copper base.
A big concern of mine is how frequent the stuff needs to be reapplied. One dude on Newegg seems to think the LM should only be used for the delid and then used normal paste for the cooler to avoid this issue. Wishing the Noctua used nickel for its base instead.
But in whatever case, I've seen different methodologies for application, largely involving whether or not BOTH surfaces are applied to. It seemed foolhardy to risk applying blindly to the IHS without any guide for it. Otherwise the risk seems minimal as long as you don't do the stupid thing and squirt the LM directly upon the die. No reason not to squirt it onto some cardboard or something first, and THEN just paint it on with a cotton swab or something. FAR more precise than hoping you don't add too much with the applicator, I'd think.
Funny thing is, I don't even overclock. Never done it, too scared to run out of spec. I prefer having a cool, energy efficient system that runs forever past its life expectancy.
If you aren't going to OC, just go Ryzen TBH.
I'd also avoid LM unless you really need it (overclocked 8700k) for the exact reasons you're running into.
Its much better to just get a good heatsink and good fans on it (get a nice double fan noctua cooler, stick their new a-series fans on there once they come out) and you'll be cool and silent unless you're really really pushing hardware.
Otherwise, you're doing the same as someone putting a spoiler on their Ford fiesta.
But again, no freesync on an Nvidia GPU, correct? Or can you hack it? Gsync panels are still hilariously overpriced, and don't offer a latency advantage anymore, so I want to avoid Gsync if I can, even if it means hacking the BiOS or getting a more expensive card.
I'm going to be doing 100+Hz gaming, and I don't want tearing. Anything above 75Hz without some kind of adaptive hardware sync is basically unacceptable, as it'll just drop back down to double digits the moment things start to struggle, unless the base 1080 is so OP that it can push modern games at a full 120/144Hz (at 1080p, granted) without ever dipping.
Hey, I managed to snag the MSI 1080 TI from Amazon (with warranty) for under a grand, so it's still possible. Seen the bastard for for $1.4k, so feel like I SCORED.
If you aren't going to OC, just go Ryzen TBH.
Oh dear GOD no... That... that's just not what I DO. Better dead than red, dude.
Always Intel, always NVidia, with as many great MSI components as can apply.
I'd also avoid LM unless you really need it (overclocked 8700k) for the exact reasons you're running into.
I dunno, it's kind of one of those THINGS now. I AM getting an 8700K, but regardless I hate knowing it runs at like 80-90C. And the allure of LM is calling me. But hey, I might actually go in for an overclock this time, if only to beat out my 4790k for per-core speeds, thus outstripping it in every facet.
Its much better to just get a good heatsink and good fans on it (get a nice double fan noctua cooler, stick their new a-series fans on there once they come out) and you'll be cool and silent unless you're really really pushing hardware.
Honestly, all you're convincing me to do now is attempt my first overclock.
Otherwise, you're doing the same as someone putting a spoiler on their Ford fiesta.
If you really want LM CPU, and good clocks, just buy one from silicon lottery.
Whoa... I didn't know THIS existed... If they offer a warranty on their work, I might just take you up on that, by thunder. Though I do admit, after seeing so many vids of the delid process, I'd almost feel like I'm missing out just BUYING a delidded CPU. It WOULD be the safer option though...
Speaking from experience, I went from a top-end (for its time, 7-ish years old) Intel/Nvidia system to an all-AMD system, and so far, it's been pretty great. The ability to just casually overclock (or underclock!) your CPU via software is something I never knew I wanted, and the Radeon hardware/software experience is miles ahead of where I remember it.
Also, maybe it was just a quirk of my particular hardware, but the old system got kinda worryingly unstable by the end. I suspect poor implementation/support of the 860m, but the i7 4910mq kept throwing memory errors at me even though I verified my RAM was good, so... Who knows. Either way, they both left me kinda sour, and red's been pretty sweet so far.
Better dead then red? What is this, the 1950's? How ya doing, McCarthy?
At least it's not ASUS. With MSI you'll get a replacement under warranty in a couple of days, took ASUS 2 whole months to get a replacement motherboard. Their support takes a week to respond with a copy past of the FAQ, then another week to tell you to send it to the retailer, then it takes 3 weeks after the retailer sends it to ASUS, then you have to wait for it to get from the retailer back to you.
Is this guy trolling? Nothing I've purchased from MSI has ever been anything less than stellar. Awesome cooling, awesome build quality, afterburner... You're flat out wrong.
Sure, because there's totally a manufacturer that's never sold a subpar product.
So what's YOUR end-all be-all then...?
There used to be a whole lot of good reasons to not go AMD/ATI. Awful power efficiency, extreme heat, unstable overclocking, bad warranties, poor longevity...
Most of this has been addressed in the Zen and Polaris architectures though, Ryzen in particular being on par with or better than Intel's offerings for gaming.
Okay? I already know that. Why are you telling me this?
Sure, fine, I'm glad Intel is being pushed by competition... But AMD doesn't play nice with Nvidia, and Nvidia is better supported by games.
You pick AMD and ATI or you pick Intel and Nvidia. Red, or Green... and for me it's Green every time.
Was it the old 5770's that could heat a standard bedroom?
I remember back during the days of those and the fermi cards NOBODY needed a spaceheater on this forum cause it was already blistering hot in their room year round.
Why are people saying AMD CPUs and Nvidia GPUs don't get along? I hear that a lot, but whenever I look into it and read through actual studies done on the matter, performance seems to be within a margin of error between red/green and blue/green, aside from some edge cases like brand new games or flunky driver updates.
While I've never had the chance to delid something as all my Intel cpus have been soldered. My advice is to just buy the Rockitcool and some grey RTV then just use a quality paste such as the NT-H1 that will come with the Noctua. You don't need to make it more complicated with more points of potential failure like you said.
Buying Noctua products is always a treat, even their cheapest stuff. I bought a NH-D14 with all of it's ram slot blocking glory which really isn't a big deal at all to me. Most heatspreaders generally do very little and with the airflow you're going to have in a standard "enthusiast" case unless you're overvolting the living hell out of them, heat won't be an issue. I removed most of mine and even installed a NF-P14 over the ram where a NF-P12 was provided originally for ram clearance. You can simply just clip the fan up a little higher if you have issues provided you don't have serious heatsink height restrictions. My fans lasted nearly 8 years with over 6 years of actual powered on use and abuse in a fairly high dust room. If a new platform comes out, just email Noctua and they'll ship you free brackets as long as you have proof of purchase, I'm pretty sure they come international from Austria too.
BeQuiet is also an option you should consider, they pretty much have a competing heatsink/knockoff of everything in Noctua's line. I imagine they're pretty similar in quality but Noctua products are pretty much the standard of quality and have been for a very long time for a reason.
Liquid metal isn't the end all solution for everything. You only should put it on specific applications where gallium won't and can't damage anything. Anywhere but inside of the IHS for your average enthusiast consumer is overkill unless your application has demanded it. You definitely don't need liquid metal on top of the IHS if it is already under the IHS unless like the prior your temps are just too high and you can't upgrade your cooling solution.
You just buy a cpu from Silicon Lottery or even send your own to them for about the money of a delid tool and liquid metal. Although with a delid tool for any future maintenance, some good thermal paste such as MX-4, NT-H1 or a Thermal Grizzly paste and something to hold the corners of the IHS. You'll be just fine with all the tools to fix anything that could and probably will go wrong at some point.
I would recommend to be very weary of guides using RTV on their IHS though. I've seen a few videos using red RTV and that stuff is completely junk outside of specific use cases. It's even fairly corrosive unless it specifically says it's not. I would go for something more modern and commonplace like ultra grey Permatex which you should be able to find at any auto parts store or even a Walmart, often in smaller cheaper tubes. Make sure it says sensor safe and noncorrosive at least. I've also seen super glue used and I'm sure you could use anything from the hardware store that dries quickly and shouldn't be too hard to remove. I would use ultra grey personally as I know I can remove it with a plastic gasket scraper or a fingernail since I always have a tube on hand from sealing valve covers, oil pans and transmissions.
I have an obnoxious triple channel motherboard with what would be considered 5 slots "blocked", while I had to remove my ram heatsinks which wasn't the most fun and have had to only remove more of them since I switched to 2 NF-P14 Redux's. It would kill me to do it to ultra expensive DDR4 but most of the non-rgb stuff has pretty weak heatsinks anyways. With a bit of heat and some plastic pry tools they should fall right off. You can always buy the single fan NH-D15S and add a second 120mm with the provided fan clips, which is actually what they recommend to do though. Noctua also generally has a compatibility list on how their heatsinks fit a specific motherboard to see if the full D15 will work for you.
https://i.imgur.com/vPIxoFi.jpg
RIP old laptop. Was planning on using it as a ghetto home automation server, but both the HDMI out and its own internal screen failed simultaneously, leaving me no way to set it up for that. Even if it's gonna be headless in the end, I need to see to get it that far.
Well, I thought to myself, since it's dead, maybe I can perform a little... autopsy. After all, having used it so long, I got kinda curious just what made it tick. Morbid curiosity, you know? I've fixed a few laptops in my time, this'll be fun.
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/228820/6135b232-bd29-4429-951e-f91bfeaea004/spoils.png
Sure I was expecting to be able to recover the 8x2 SODIMMs and HDD, maybe snag its wireless N card as a spare, but the freaking CPU wasn't soldered. I don't think I've ever seen that on a laptop before. Well, at least, never in person. The ones I've had to dismantle for parts or repair at work have always been bolt-on affairs, so this outta nowhere just kinda came as a surprise. I could have upgraded it this whole time, who would've thought? Rather charmingly, it even has its model ID sharpied onto it, which stuck even after a good alcohol rub to clear the thermal gunk.
So... Now what? It feels wrong to just let these bits of my former daily driver rot in a parts drawer, and even if I put them back in the thing and tried to sell it, I doubt I'd get much with a dead GPU and broken hinge. Is there anything else I could use these for? Especially the CPU, that thing's still an i7 quad after all. Think there's a way to put it back to work, instead of just selling it?
If Freesync is your requirement then yeah, you're gonna need to go AMD.
Good luck on getting Vega, I've heard they're a bit more available now, but ymmv.
Hey man, your loss.
Its mostly nice for people like you who don't OC, you basically just get QVL parts, then buy the CPU speed you want, and punch in the numbers they tell you to. EZPZ.
Bulldozer was pretty problematic, but honestly Phenom was great, ATi HD was great against nVidia GeForce (at the time), and AMD only really had a problem with the 79xx series, the R9 series was very good, and I personally really liked Fury. Only with Vega vs Pascal has there been such a gap.
IIRC Vega unlocked (water-cooled etc) literally uses more power than any other consumer Single-GPU graphics card. Ever.
Optimistic. Unless they seriously change their frontend bottleneck, ROP deficiency, memory compression, and general raster technology (like what DSBR was supposed to do) - then they're fucked in the consumer facing GPU segment.
My only issue is I REALLY don't like going in and operating on my PC after the fact, so I tend to just go for nuclear options under the presumption that I'll never have to deal with it again. As I've said, cooler installations have triggered aversions in my brain, because it was ALWAYS the most stressful part of the build, usually working a screwdriver into the incredibly tight space to alternate between sides of the bracket as you crushed the cooler against the board. I hate ANY part in a pc, from coolers to certain power connectors, that DEMAND forceful insertion or removal, and one wrong move will likely lead to you snapping something in half.
Good news is, the Noctua stuff looks like it has a super-easy install method, and my new case is a HUGE full tower compared to my current mid-case. Definitely gonna grab one of those fan-kits to change those awful colors while I'm at it.
And yeah, this Silicon Lottery website looks like the perfect balance, PLUS being able to buy a CPU that's vetted to operate at a frequency, getting around the chances of finding a "dud." It's enough to actually make me want to clock-up for once.
Speaking of that, went into some 1-star Newegg reviews on the MSI M5 motherboard I was looking at... and now I'm not sure WHAT to do. I figure most products have stuff that slips by QA testing, but...
I knew people complained that it had bad audio, but you can fix that with a soundcard. MY concern is people saying it straight-up won't boot from an M.2 NVME and a few other horror stories.
Yet this board has topped a number of "which board is best?" lists and Youtube videos online.
All I want is something that supports those NVME drives, only use single GPUs so don't need tons of PCIE slots, good sound is nice, not using optical drives, and I'm using an 8700K...
Owned an ASRock board and a Gigabyte board, but never ASUS... EVGA only experienced the GPUs which were fine.
Ugh, now I have no idea which board to go for.
Honestly, just pick your platform, do some research to determine which brand has the strictest QA (or if you don't mind replacing stuff, the best support), find the board that has the features you want, and go for it.
Just remember, shop selfishly. Throw out prior good experiences, look into each option as if it's your first experience with that brand, ask yourself if there's anything better out there for what you want to do. Build detailed comparisons, pit each and every one you like against eachother, until the winner is obvious.
Personally I'm not a fan of MSI boards, I've found good luck with Asus boards. Currently rocking an EVGA board that I love. Recently got an ASrock board that seems fine (esp for how cheap it was) and have been liking their lineup (esp for Ryzen).
ASUS ROG Strix Z370
Probably going with this. Only issue I'm seeing is with Windows 7, and I THINK that can be solved in the BIOS?
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.