General Linux Chat and Small Questions v. I broke my Arch Install - Hardware & Software

[QUOTE=esalaka;40948436]He didn't exactly dismiss Valve's work for Linux support but certainly seemed to think that it isn't the best strategy businesswise.[/QUOTE] Well hey, Valve doesn't have to please stockholders, so as long as the numbers don't dip into red then they're good.

I think the Linux guys get too upset about what I have to say. There are a few problems with Linux. It's not going to be a successful desktop if you're expected to ever go into the command line to do stuff for example. It's only really ever used as a desktop for bragging rights by nerds. I'm not saying these things because I hate Linux. I'm saying it how I see it as an outsider. I like the idea of Linux. I want it to beat the shit out of Windows and OSX. But in the current condition it's not going to happen. Especially when Ubuntu is being touted as the Linux desktop - when it's arguably the most awful desktop you can get on Linux. It's confusing to me that Windows is closed source and it has a few hundred, maybe thousand people working on it. The same with OSX. But they can be so much more user friendly than Linux.. when Linux has the potentially everyone in the world contributing to it. Why isn't it the best platform yet? It can't just be because of a lack of users - right?

[QUOTE=esalaka;40948436]Carmack's point was more about how Linux is a less uniform platform than Windows, wasn't it, though, and how the amount of people who use only Linux is so low that it makes no real sense to develop for two platforms. He didn't exactly dismiss Valve's work for Linux support but certainly seemed to think that it isn't the best strategy businesswise.[/QUOTE] id Software is owned by ZeniMax so I can imagine they have difficulty thinking beyond the next quarter.

Also people think I'm upset because GMod for Linux isn't making much money. That couldn't be further from the truth. Even OSX which is much more popular than Linux doesn't even put a dent in the Windows sales. I was just pointing out how few linux users there actually are. And yes that's because they already bought it on windows, and it isn't released properly etc etc.

I'm disliking Awesome more as I use it. :( It seems to lack things that should be included as default, like a battery meter and volume control. I'm also finding adding the widgets is a total bitch, completely given up with installing a battery meter because the instructions don't actually work.

[QUOTE=garry;40948862]I think the Linux guys get too upset about what I have to say. There are a few problems with Linux. It's not going to be a successful desktop if you're expected to ever go into the command line to do stuff for example. It's only really ever used as a desktop for bragging rights by nerds. I'm not saying these things because I hate Linux. I'm saying it how I see it as an outsider. I like the idea of Linux. I want it to beat the shit out of Windows and OSX. But in the current condition it's not going to happen. Especially when Ubuntu is being touted as the Linux desktop - when it's arguably the most awful desktop you can get on Linux. It's confusing to me that Windows is closed source and it has a few hundred, maybe thousand people working on it. The same with OSX. But they can be so much more user friendly than Linux.. when Linux has the potentially everyone in the world contributing to it. Why isn't it the best platform yet? It can't just be because of a lack of users - right?[/QUOTE] Partially because everything is more or less done from scratch to avoid licensing. whereas Microsoft or Apple can pay a existing company a nice license fee to use their drop-in tech to obtain certain features. Reinvent the wheel or pay up front.

How many things have to be re-written from scratch though?

[QUOTE=garry;40948862]I think the Linux guys get too upset about what I have to say. There are a few problems with Linux. It's not going to be a successful desktop if you're expected to ever go into the command line to do stuff for example. It's only really ever used as a desktop for bragging rights by nerds.[/quote] I don't think you should ever need to go into the terminal for day to day usage, I can't say I use a computer in the same way as the average user but I'm sure that in the ideal case (i.e. the case where none of the drivers fall over) you shouldn't have to use a terminal at all. I would be interested to see where Linux DEs [i]do[/i] miss certain graphical interfaces for configuring the system, since I don't think there's anything an end user would be pining but like I said that's not how I use it so I haven't got a lot of experience. [QUOTE=garry;40948862]I'm not saying these things because I hate Linux. I'm saying it how I see it as an outsider. I like the idea of Linux. I want it to beat the shit out of Windows and OSX. But in the current condition it's not going to happen. Especially when Ubuntu is being touted as the Linux desktop - when it's arguably the most awful desktop you can get on Linux.[/quote] Outside of any technical issues, I'd say it's certainly suitable for the average user. I've set a few people (who have little to no computing knowledge) up with various Desktop Linux installations here and there and when I ask them about how it is they don't seem to have any complaints. Other than my father, who kept complaining that firefox kept zooming out. [QUOTE=garry;40948862]It's confusing to me that Windows is closed source and it has a few hundred, maybe thousand people working on it. The same with OSX. But they can be so much more user friendly than Linux.. when Linux has the potentially everyone in the world contributing to it. Why isn't it the best platform yet? It can't just be because of a lack of users - right?[/QUOTE] Well the Kernel itself is quite well developed, but when you look at all of the components that come into play on the desktop (the kernel, the window manager, the services like semantic desktop, the sound system, the drivers etc.) then it's quite a large area to cover. I'd wager that a lot of problems people have other than not knowing how to configure a certain part of the system arise from running on a hardware configuration that nobody had tested on until it was released.

[QUOTE=Leestons;40948893]I'm disliking Awesome more as I use it. :( It seems to lack things that should be included as default, like a battery meter and volume control. I'm also finding adding the widgets is a total bitch, completely given up with installing a battery meter because the instructions don't actually work.[/QUOTE] Well, with awesome you're sorta expected to do the heavy lifting yourself, so you shouldn't be too surprised. If you want a tiling WM that's a easier to use, try openbox. Another thing, one of the reasons the instructions aren't working could be because they were written for an older version of awesome, a few months ago it got a major update to how it's lua backend works.

[QUOTE=sabreman;40949091]Well, with awesome you're sorta expected to do the heavy lifting yourself, so you shouldn't be too surprised. If you want a tiling WM that's a easier to use, try openbox. Another thing, one of the reasons the instructions aren't working could be because they were written for an older version of awesome, a few months ago it got a major update to how it's lua backend works.[/QUOTE] It seems the git was missing files, I've gone back to XFCE for now. I expect having to do most things myself, but I also expected at least a battery meter considering it had a clock widget already.

i3 has a very nice status app which is easy to configure; I have: / size remaining | /home size remaining | Ethernet IP | Wireless IP and Strength | Battery Status and Charge % | CPU load avg | CPU core temp | Volume | Day(Date) Time | StatusBar Icons And its all fully configurable and color coded. Plus, you can configure it to hide by default, and only show up (on top of _everything_ else) when you hold a designated key down (I use the Super key) so you can monitor system info even while watching a fullscreen video or playing a full screen game.

[QUOTE=Rayjingstorm;40949211]i3 has a very nice status app which is easy to configure; I have: / size remaining | /home size remaining | Ethernet IP | Wireless IP and Strength | Battery Status and Charge % | CPU load avg | CPU core temp | Volume | Day(Date) Time | StatusBar Icons And its all fully configurable and color coded. Plus, you can configure it to hide by default, and only show up (on top of _everything_ else) when you hold a designated key down (I use the Super key) so you can monitor system info even while watching a fullscreen video or playing a full screen game.[/QUOTE]I really love i3, although I didn't think so going in. I was bouncing between different DEs, trying to see one that fit, then I tried i3 out, and I just fell in love with the simplicity and the tiling window manager style. Being able to set up and bounce between different workspaces with just the keyboard quickly became second nature for me. That, and the i3bar is really nice and simple, like you said.

[QUOTE=garry;40948862]There are a few problems with Linux. It's not going to be a successful desktop if you're expected to ever go into the command line to do stuff for example. It's only really ever used as a desktop for bragging rights by nerds.[/QUOTE] That's actually kind of curious, since common CLI shells are not difficult to operate at all. And one of the things I honestly miss on Windows is a proper command line. I mean, it's 2013, they could at least make the new terminal windows which speficially made for PowerShell work like proper terminal emulators! I can't even select text reasonably because it's not handled like text! Seriously, it's more of a what you like thing. The issue people seem to have with CLIs is that they seem difficult or complex because you don't have a predefined set of options to choose from. On the other hand, that can be overly restrictive. Microsoft and Apple have been at the business for several decades so they've got it down [i]reasonably[/i] well but especially GNOME seems to be having issues doing anything on the Linux side. I couldn't imagine using Linux without a terminal, but I think Ubuntu is aiming to be something you [i]can[/i] use without having to do anything on the command line. And while I'm OK with that, I like that you still have the terminal in case you need it for something. The reason Ubuntu is seen as a terrible user experience is... Well, because of Unity, I guess, but it's less "terrible" and more "different from before". It's not necessarily a bad thing. I personally can't say how it works because I stopped using Ubuntu by the point a fresh install would crash gdm. (I'm assuming they fixed that issue.) I think the main reason people don't use Linux is that nobody seems to be aware that it is actually in many ways easier to use than Windows. To say a few things about Ubuntu, specifically: No reboots, no defrag (Well, sometimes - but you [i]can't[/i] defrag ext2/3/4 online, I think), programs are easy to install and are stored in standard locations = less clutter, few unstable programs (Though I can still remember the absolute catastrophy gwibber was), most programs distributed as blobs are packaged for Ubuntu which means they're simple to use, large community and forums to look up solutions on to problems you might have, easy-to-use installer (I think you just need to press "next" if you want to save your existing Windows installation, though not sure), the user interfaces - being GNOME - are relatively old and as such relatively well-developed... If the Ubuntu installer hasn't changed much, it's almost less confusing than the Windows 7 one, if only because it tells you what it's doing. That's a good starting point. Then you just need to be shown how to install programs and you can pretty much start using it. [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] I mean, I could figure out how to use Ubuntu back when I was maybe 13. I firmly believe it isn't difficult at all.

Unity isn't all that bad for simple use, especially on small screens but it has the same problem as metro on larger displays - too much stuff is spread out over the whole screen (why is the menu bar at the top for fuck sake put it back).

[QUOTE=Rayjingstorm;40949211]i3 has a very nice status app which is easy to configure; I have: / size remaining | /home size remaining | Ethernet IP | Wireless IP and Strength | Battery Status and Charge % | CPU load avg | CPU core temp | Volume | Day(Date) Time | StatusBar Icons And its all fully configurable and color coded. Plus, you can configure it to hide by default, and only show up (on top of _everything_ else) when you hold a designated key down (I use the Super key) so you can monitor system info even while watching a fullscreen video or playing a full screen game.[/QUOTE] I've just tried i3 and I'm in love with it already, I have one question though (well, two) how do I close a window/workspace?

[QUOTE=Leestons;40949404]I've just tried i3 and I'm in love with it already, I have one question though (well, two) how do I close a window/workspace?[/QUOTE]Mod key+shift+Q.

You guys are brilliant, thank you!

[QUOTE=garry;40948862]It's only really ever used as a desktop for bragging rights by nerds.[/QUOTE] Please do remember that there are people who actually use Linux for real work etc., but they're probably a minority. [QUOTE=garry;40948862]Why isn't it the best platform yet??[/QUOTE] Because of stupid people fighting with each other, thinking they're all right. When you let everyone voice their opinions, you end up in a gridlock when ideas conflict. Just look at the desktop environment space: Unity, GNOME, KDE, Xfce, Lxde, Cinnamon, Openbox... That list doesn't even begin to list all the available desktop environments. At the end of the day, the kernel works because we have a benevolent dictator.

The more I see Linus yell at people about the kernel and git, the more I respect the guy. His ideas are often crazy at first sight (e.g. "git shouldn't make a separate item for file moving in the diff"), but when you look at his reasoning it makes perfect sense. People often hate it at first, but appreciate it later on.

Competition is a good thing, in just about every situation imaginable. Why work on one grand unifying desktop environment when it would end up trying to be everything to everyone, but in reality be nothing to anyone. This violates KISS and would just produce a giant mess. Everyone was up in arms about Windows scrapping the start menu button... in Linux this is [B]completely impossible[/B] because it isn't removable. [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] Another way of phrasing this is that monopoly is always bad, and Windows claims an effective monopoly on its window manager and desktop environment, unless you are comfortable hacking in your own.

[QUOTE=nikomo;40950448]Because of stupid people fighting with each other, thinking they're all right. When you let everyone voice their opinions, you end up in a gridlock when ideas conflict. Just look at the desktop environment space: Unity, GNOME, KDE, Xfce, Lxde, Cinnamon, Openbox... That list doesn't even begin to list all the available desktop environments. At the end of the day, the kernel works because we have a benevolent dictator.[/QUOTE] I don't quite see what you're trying to say.

[QUOTE=danharibo;40950988]I don't quite see what you're trying to say.[/QUOTE] With windows, you pretty much only have Microsoft's vision for a complete operating system, and if you don't like it, then you can go gobble on Ballmer's balls and then attempt some hacky workarounds. Whereas with Linux, it's like letting a bunch of kids loose in a candy store, but telling them they're only allowed one thing of each type of candy. You can bet none of them would mix up the exact identical pile of candy. And let's not forget the GTK2+ vs GTK3 and Xorg vs wayland and all that. After all, a standard everyone agrees with makes it all easier, but it's tough when there's even disagreements on what the standards should impose. Even though of most fronts the standards are more or less agreed upon, but there's always some troublemakers.

[QUOTE=danharibo;40950988]I don't quite see what you're trying to say.[/QUOTE] Groups break apart because they consist of humans, causing duplicate work, aimed at the same goal, thus wasting effort, whilst inside Microsoft or Apple they can just go "You will do this or you're fired". More choice is not inherently good: better choices is.

[QUOTE=nikomo;40951088]Groups break apart because they consist of humans, causing duplicate work, aimed at the same goal, thus wasting effort, whilst inside Microsoft or Apple they can just go "You will do this or you're fired". More choice is not inherently good: better choices is.[/QUOTE] That makes no sense, whom do you propose is qualified to dictate what choice is "better"? Microsoft allows some level of choice, but it is most certainly inadequate, and by many standards it is not "better". With competition, the most popular ideas will get the most support and will prosper the most. There will always be other ideas and projects with marginal followings, but to think that this effort is actually [i]detracting[/i] from the other efforts is ludicrous; its like claiming all piracy is in fact "lost sales" when many pirates would never even consider buying the product in the first place. [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] TL;DR multiple efforts != wasted effort [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] I also do not advocate piracy in the slightest, but I am not so naive as to believe that the pie is of a fixed size.

Right down to GRUB, even Ubuntu is troublesome. There isn't any point in arguing that linux is already suitable for the average person, because it isn't. There are so many glaring things in just [I]installing[/I] Ubuntu that would scare off any illiterate computer user, like drive formatting and all that. And then you get to the actual desktop, Unity. An utter pile of shit, design wise. It isn't 2004, canonical. Learn to follow the trend Microsoft and Apple are following, minimal at the moment is better. Just look at the bloody icons, they're hideous on their own, never mind being on top of that functionally retarded side bar. [IMG]http://horobox.co.uk/u/flubbernugget-_1370799677.png[/IMG] On the top of the side bar. It makes no sense to put it at the side, why don't canonical just put it at the bottom? Any maximized window should be [I]centered.[/I] Not at some skewed position on the bottom right of the screen. OSX has a very similar layout to Unity, and it makes it work. I think canonical are experimenting in a time where they really can't afford to. Unity should not be in the main channel, the main channel DE should be one which is more like windows. That is, if they ever want to get windows users to move over to Ubuntu any time soon. I can use myself as an example in this case. When I started using Linux, it was with Unity. I hated it with my every being, I almost wanted to switch back to Windows because it was a UI-hell for someone who was so used to using Windows for about 10 years. That's where I started using Cinnamon, clearly influenced by how Microsoft manage Windows. One task bar, and a menu button in the left, it was soothing. That's what got me comfortable with linux, then I was fit to start using more experimental desktop systems, or rather, ones that aren't like windows. I started loving it so much that I prefer them to Windows in every way. Canonical should be aiming to get a lot more people in to a position similar to what I [I]was[/I] at, [I]before[/I] they start experimenting so much. More people are definitely using Linux than what that number would have been 5 years ago, what with Android and Chromebooks, but neither of these are Linux desktops in the way we know them. They aren't used because they're Linux systems, they're used because they are Google systems. [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] Microsoft's tactic of 'My way or nothing' works because for the consumer [I]and[/I] for the companies, it's easy. Microsoft provides customer support, they would have a lot more work on their hands if people weren't using Explorer so much.

Why would Ubuntu garner more users if it's interface was more like Windows? Why move from Windows to another system which is for all intents and purposes a Windows knockoff? I don't like Unity, but not because it is poorly executed, simply because I feel it is only extending the traditional desktop metaphor, one which feels really dated. Since the dawn of the GUI with the Xerox Alto the "desktop" has been at the center of the GUI, when it really seems a waste: why have any window decoration or even screen decoration taking up your margins? To debate that the sidebar isn't as bad when it takes up space on the left versus the bottom or right is a moot point when, nominally, it should take up [B]no[/B] space. Luckily noone can make these decisions for anyone else, because there are so many projects offering a wide variety of solutions that it is all but impossible to be dissatisfied with the Linux "desktop".

[QUOTE=Rayjingstorm;40951480]Why would Ubuntu garner more users if it's interface was more like Windows? Why move from Windows to another system which is for all intents and purposes a Windows knockoff? I don't like Unity, but not because it is poorly executed, simply because I feel it is only extending the traditional desktop metaphor, one which feels really dated. Since the dawn of the GUI with the Xerox Alto the "desktop" has been at the center of the GUI, when it really seems a waste: why have any window decoration or even screen decoration taking up your margins? To debate that the sidebar isn't as bad when it takes up space on the left versus the bottom or right is a moot point when, nominally, it should take up [B]no[/B] space. Luckily noone can make these decisions for anyone else, because there are so many projects offering a wide variety of solutions that it is all but impossible to be dissatisfied with the Linux "desktop".[/QUOTE] Because it's free. [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] I would guess that a large chunk of Ubuntu users use it because they heard it was free on TV or something.

I said goodbye to Linux some days ago \o/

I actually find it funny that the same reason Xerox used a "desktop" metaphor was to get people to move away from the desktop to their system, and FlubberNugget just recommended Ubuntu mimic Windows to get people to move to their system. In both cases it may be effective, but in my opinion its only going to hold the system back.

[QUOTE=Moofy;40951517]I said goodbye to Linux some days ago \o/[/QUOTE] Why, might I ask? [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rayjingstorm;40951530]I actually find it funny that the same reason Xerox used a "desktop" metaphor was to get people to move away from the desktop to their system, and FlubberNugget just recommended Ubuntu mimic Windows to get people to move to their system. In both cases it may be effective, but in my opinion its only going to hold the system back.[/QUOTE] That kind of progress needs to be held back for later when you're dealing with such a volatile business. It's a shame, but that's how it is. [editline]8th June 2013[/editline] People don't want alternatives, people want what they're used to. When they get tired of what they're used to, then that's when the innovation should come around.