[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299174]i agree with the first 2 points, you can't share it and you can't edit it (at least you can't edit the actual OS). what does the last point mean? can't use it for whatever purpose i want? like what, what purpose can i not fulfill using windows?[/QUOTE]
Pre-installed Home Basic for example, you can't use it to power two computers, I can only allow up to 20 devices to access various services such as printing, file sharing, internet connection sharing, I'm not allowed to circumvent activation, I'm not allowed to disclose .NET component benchmarks unless I allow Microsoft to benchmark my own stuff, I may not be able to activate Windows outside my country, I'm only allowed one backup copy to install on the same computer. The list goes on.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299174]i also see you're still not even beginning to grasp how much of a douche you sound like constantly yammering on about how free you are and how restricted we are in the awful prison camp known as windows[/QUOTE]
The fuck are you on about?
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299174]and wow thanks [B]once again[/B] for a shit reply that doesn't explain anything
what do you do with those freedoms? what good is the freedom to edit the linux kernel, to share your OS, if you [B]don't use them[/B]. if you're that obsessed with freedoms (freedoms freedoms look mom i said freedoms AGAIN) then i guess the discussion ends here, but if you have a practical explanation for why you need those freedoms in the first place i'd LOVE to hear them[/QUOTE]
I've explained the freedoms and how they benefit me. That alone is why I use Linux. It is outside of the scope of this thread to justify why the freedoms matter in the first place.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299174]this really shouldn't even be a difficult discussion, naelstrom managed to explain his choice without sounding like a complete moron, i'm honestly surprised you're still struggling with it.[/QUOTE]
Name calling, awesome.
[QUOTE=Jookia;35299319]Pre-installed Home Basic for example, you can't use it to power two computers, I can only allow up to 20 devices to access various services such as printing, file sharing, internet connection sharing, I'm not allowed to circumvent activation, I'm not allowed to disclose .NET component benchmarks unless I allow Microsoft to benchmark my own stuff, I may not be able to activate Windows outside my country, I'm only allowed one backup copy to install on the same computer. The list goes on.
The fuck are you on about?
I've explained the freedoms and how they benefit me. That alone is why I use Linux. It is outside of the scope of this thread to justify why the freedoms matter in the first place.
Name calling, awesome.[/QUOTE]
you have [B]not once[/B] explained why linux being open source benefits you other than "freedom"
despite the fact that you don't even use this freedom it is absolutely imperative that you have access to your OS source?
as for your list of windows gripes:
multiple installations - ok so if you can't afford multiple copies of windows and you for some reason are completely adverse to piracy then i can understand why you would use linux instead
20 devices max - windows only allows 20 devices to access it? is there a source on this and is this actually an issue for you personally?
not allowed to circumvent activation - kind of redundant considering we already went over the multiple installations thing
.NET benchmarks - what? you can't do benchmarks of .NET software without sending microsoft benchmark statistics? how exactly is this even enforced
no out-of-country activation - once again solved by piracy and i'm not sure how this would even be an issue for you personally unless you for some reason need to commonly travel the world and perform windows installations on the go
one backup copy - huh? you can install windows as many times as you want, i've used my backup cd a million times without issue.
my point isn't necessarily whether or not linux is more accessible and open, because it obviously is. my question is how ANY of this open-ness actually affects you?
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299375]you have [B]not once[/B] explained why linux being open source benefits you other than "freedom"[/QUOTE]
It doesn't.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299375]my question is how ANY of this open-ness actually affects you?[/QUOTE]
I've had to mod some software to work on my current setup, and fix various bugs in software. If the software wasn't open, I wouldn't be able to use it in those cases.
But beyond that, I don't understand why having freedoms isn't reason enough to use Linux.
[QUOTE=Jookia;35299468]It doesn't.
I've had to mod some software to work on my current setup, and fix various bugs in software. If the software wasn't open, I wouldn't be able to use it in those cases.
But beyond that, I don't understand why having freedoms isn't reason enough to use Linux.[/QUOTE]
so essentially the only freedom you're really taking advantage of is the ability to modify open source software
which isn't exclusive to linux
which makes it completely useless as a pro-linux argument
once again i'm not anti-linux but an open source kernel isn't enough to make me give up gaming (at least on my main boot)
[QUOTE=Jookia;35299468]and fix various bugs in software.[/QUOTE]
open source video drivers amirite
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
hey jookia i hope your television is open source what if you need to fix a bug in it
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299487]so essentially the only freedom you're really taking advantage of is the ability to modify open source software
which isn't exclusive to linux
which makes it completely useless as a pro-linux argument[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if I'm using a freedom or not, it matters that it's there.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299487]once again i'm not anti-linux but an open source kernel isn't enough to make me give up gaming (at least on my main boot)[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to make you give up gaming or even use Linux, I'm stating why I use Linux. Also, none of us are talking about it as a kernel, we're talking about it as GNU/Linux, the OS.
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=swift and shift;35299492]hey jookia i hope your television is open source what if you need to fix a bug in it[/QUOTE]
If only.
my point is, why do you care so much about these freedoms that end up having no effect on your experience using the computer??
all you talk about is how important this freedom is even though you don't utilize any of it. so if your reason for using linux is because it gives you features and abilities that you don't even use, it doesn't seem like you have much reason at all for using it
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299563]my point is, why do you care so much about these freedoms that end up having no effect on your experience using the computer??
all you talk about is how important this freedom is even though you don't utilize any of it. so if your reason for using linux is because it gives you features and abilities that you don't even use, it doesn't seem like you have much reason at all for using it[/QUOTE]
As I said, I use it because I care about freedoms I have, and freedoms I don't have. It may not be important to you, or even outside of your comprehension, but that's why I use Linux.
[QUOTE=Jookia;35299580]As I said, I use it because I care about freedoms I have, and freedoms I don't have. It may not be important to you, [B]or even outside of your comprehension[/B], but that's why I use Linux.[/QUOTE]
ughhh alright dude enjoy linux and all of those "freedoms" you have
jesus fucking christ
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
[B]why[/B] do you care
are you so fucking beyond normal conversation that you can't deduce from all of my posts that i'm trying to figure out WHY you care so much about this shit that you don't use
normally i'd just quit and say "oh well this is a stupid discussion and he can't give a good answer" but you have me so confused and interested in whatever mystical reasoning you must be going through to justify this
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299588]ughhh alright dude enjoy linux and all of those "freedoms" you have
jesus fucking christ
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
[B]why[/B] do you care
are you so fucking beyond normal conversation that you can't deduce from all of my posts that i'm trying to figure out WHY you care so much about this shit that you don't use
normally i'd just quit and say "oh well this is a stupid discussion and he can't give a good answer" but you have me so confused and interested in whatever mystical reasoning you must be going through to justify this[/QUOTE]
Could you think of a good answer then? Because I don't seem to be able to satisfy you with my whole 'I like having not having my freedoms taken away'
what kind of shit copout is that?
i asked you why [B]YOU[/B] care so much about freedoms that you aren't using, and apparently you don't have an answer?
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
and no i can't think of a good answer [B]that's why i asked you[/B]
because stallman
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299672]what kind of shit copout is that?
i asked you why [B]YOU[/B] care so much about freedoms that you aren't using, and apparently you don't have an answer?
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
and no i can't think of a good answer [B]that's why i asked you[/B][/QUOTE]
I care about all the freedoms I don't use, as you don't notice how bad things are until they're taken away. Look at free speech for example. I've never had to exercise it and may never have to, but if it's gone then I'll sure as hell miss it. Same with software freedoms. What happens if I can't make more than one backup of my OS and shit goes belly up? What if I can't lend games to my friends in real life? DRM already screws that up.
[QUOTE=Jookia;35299714]I care about all the freedoms I don't use, as you don't notice how bad things are until they're taken away. Look at free speech for example. I've never had to exercise it and may never have to, but if it's gone then I'll sure as hell miss it. Same with software freedoms.[/QUOTE]
are you taking the piss or are you serious right now
ok i surrender. in the mean time i'm moving to somalia. even though i don't need the freedom to shoot people and drive away without fear of punishment, I CARE ABOUT FREEDOM
Practical reasons why I use Linux:
1. When I want to do things I can just do them, I have access to shells and terminals that aren't a complete piece of shit (Konsole and Terminator) like the one windows uses, which is so bad I'd rather use Explorer
2. I don't have to use Explorer
3. Developing software is much easier when you have a package manager and you're using a system like CMake
4. KDevelop lets me use git and CMake with it, meaning I can just put the repository into KDevelop and work on it.
5. It works better out of the box, a fresh install of Windows 7 on my thinkpad can only do sound out of the box. Graphics, Ethernet and Wireless both require me getting a hold of the drivers somehow.
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
oh and
6. Freedom.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35299725]are you taking the piss or are you serious right now
ok i surrender. in the mean time i'm moving to somalia. even though i don't need the freedom to shoot people and drive away without fear of punishment, I CARE ABOUT FREEDOM[/QUOTE]
Why are you arguing about another man's views? Can he not value something you don't?
[QUOTE=_Twitch_;35300867]Why are you arguing about another man's views? Can he not value something you don't?[/QUOTE]
uhh no i don't really care what he values i was just looking for some explanation as to why he values those things
i felt like i was being pretty specific when i posted that twice
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35300876]uhh no i don't really care what he values i was just looking for some explanation as to why he values those things
i felt like i was being pretty specific when i posted that twice[/QUOTE]
And he answered you several times on this. I don't see why you keep going, just stop already, you got an answer. If it doesn't satisfy you, then maybe you should just drop it.
I agree with Jookia, by the way, as Linux is a major part of what I can do or can NOT do. It's why I use it as often as possible.
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
Sorry, the open source philosophy is a major part of it. Linux is just making it possible.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;35300876]uhh no i don't really care what he values i was just looking for some explanation as to why he values those things
i felt like i was being pretty specific when i posted that twice[/QUOTE]
You weren't asking for an explanation, you were tearing apart and rudely discrediting his entire post. You've been doing so throughout the thread.
You also don't understand the concept of freedom and how it can be fulfilling.
If you're going to be an asshat, have the balls to accept your hat instead of hiding behind your questions.
linux is too mainstream I use bsd
[QUOTE=Jookia;35270571]I don't use Linux because it's better than Windows.[/quote]
Great point right here!
[quote] I use it because it gives me freedom to do whatever the fuck I want to do, without having to deal with EULAs, or not being able to use it for evil.[/quote]
You can actually quite a bit of customizations without violating Elua's. Besides the services apps you run on are more important the underlying OS 'customizations'. For example in centos if I want to use some advanced iscsi features I would have to recompile the kernel, in windows I either install the package from server manager or source and maybe reboot but it works.
[quote]All my music and 99% of my software are open formats and source. I don't even use proprietary video drivers, seeing as the FOSS ones work for what I do. If you want to sacrifice freedom, sure, go ahead.[/quote]
Great job this has nothing to do with why linux is better, i don't see how productivity is lost by using a closed format. Many people rely on pst, docx, qbb, and others to work and live how does it benifet the end user to save as a .odf instead of .doc. Oh right it doesn't matter
[quote]A lot of your complaints are more at the lack of Linux support by most developers, not Linux itself. Bear that in mind.[/quote]
The support of the OS is critical to how you view an OS. It is like me saying wow solairs is great but I am not going to jump through oracles HW support for it. or better yet ESXi 5 is amazing too bad the support for 3rd party things aren't supported!
[quote]Converting from Windows to Linux? Lots of sacrifices. Gaming is pretty much null and void (although now that I have RSI I can't game on Windows either), migrating to new applications, learning the command line is also a huge advantage to everyday work.[/quote]
Why should a user have to access the command line directly to do everyday work? That is anti productive. He should be able to click on $app and $app run and load the data for him, him starting app running yum install $repo isn't nice.
[quote]But at the end of the day, I'm a developer, and it's an unbearable pain to do anything on Windows besides fuck around with games and YouTube, especially with its constant GUI changes. I want something that works, and Linux does this. I've had this install since Feb last year, my system hasn't been better. It doesn't break down after time and become slow and a piece of shit that you need to reinstall, so I can do work.[/QUOTE]
Wanna talk about constant UI changes 95-7 is pretty much all the same 8 is the exception, just like gnome has been, also if you are a developer why are you primarily concerned about a UI? Besides Linux can become slow piece of shit just like windows if you aren't careful, if you don't know that you are in for a surprise.
[QUOTE=Tucan Sam;35303062]Why should a user have to access the command line directly to do everyday work? That is anti productive. He should be able to click on $app and $app run and load the data for him, him starting app running yum install $repo isn't nice.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever used a Linux terminal? It's the handiest thing I've ever used; I find it faster to do many tasks in the terminal rather than a wonky GUI program.
My favorite thing about it is its scripting abilities; I've made several things in bash that I can run by simply pressing buttons on my keyboard.
For example I made my media keys run cmus, a very lightweight music player, in the background if it's not already running. Then controls it while showing notification bubbles of what happened. [url=http://67.177.47.177/texts/Scripts/cmuscontrol](You can see the script here)[/url]
You can see me skipping, pausing, and [I]removing[/I] songs as they are playing. I know of no normal music player that has the ability to remove the song playing from a button press. So I thought terminal is nice because I can just make my own little script that lets me do so.
[vid]http://67.177.47.177/videos/rCyvQHLCLgzY7JnJ.webm[/vid]
Oh yeah I also used a bash script to record that video and automatically upload it to my server.
Terminal is awesome.
[editline]asdf[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tucan Sam;35303062]The support of the OS is critical to how you view an OS. It is like me saying wow solairs is great but I am not going to jump through oracles HW support for it. or better yet ESXi 5 is amazing too bad the support for 3rd party things aren't supported![/QUOTE]
You're correct, so based on that Linux is pretty fantastic as it's developed by the community. When drivers don't exist for something (in the kernel), I find the community has already made modules for it. For example my Wacom Bamboo tablet has no real support for Linux, but looking around there's an [url=https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wacom_Tablet]Arch Wiki page[/url] on how to get it working with a [url=http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/linuxwacom/index.php?title=Main_Page]driver project already started for it[/url].
It may not beat the drivers already being on disk for windows, but knowing that the community is working into getting proper driver support for Wacom tablets is satisfying to me. Even if the community doesn't move very fast.
[editline]asdf[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tucan Sam;35303062]Wanna talk about constant UI changes 95-7 is pretty much all the same 8 is the exception, just like gnome has been, also if you are a developer why are you primarily concerned about a UI? Besides Linux can become slow piece of shit just like windows if you aren't careful, if you don't know that you are in for a surprise.[/QUOTE]
Yeah Linux can become a slow piece of shit if you don't know what you're doing, but unlike windows you can keep it fast without any real effort. No matter what I do, windows always ends up having tons of junk on it that can only be removed through precision deletion or re-installation.
As for why a developer cares about changing UI is that he develops in the UI and probably doesn't want to relearn a whole new interface to continue working. Despite windows not changing much UI wise, it DID change. I recall always setting everything to windows classic because I couldn't find anything in XP/Vista's control panel/start menu. (I was young don't think I was dumb :( )
Gnome might be doing the same thing, but it's not the only desktop environment for Linux.
Terminal might not be right for everyone, but it's right for me.
However, simple GUI interfaces are better than clusterfuck GUIs in Windows.
[QUOTE=Tucan Sam;35303062]Why should a user have to access the command line directly to do everyday work? That is anti productive. He should be able to click on $app and $app run and load the data for him, him starting app running yum install $repo isn't nice.
[/QUOTE]
I can get work done much faster with the terminal, than with any other X program.
also, shell/python scripts, can increase productive workflow even more, so I call bullshit on your point.
on topic:
What I really like about linux is, that you can choose wich type of Desktop Enviroment you want. if you don't have a powerful machine, you can install something like openbox, in order to save resources.
In windows, you don't have such an option, so you are always trapped with the same DE.
[QUOTE=Naelstrom;35303300]Have you ever used a Linux terminal? It's the handiest thing I've ever used; I find it faster to do many tasks in the terminal rather than a wonky GUI program.
My favorite thing about it is its scripting abilities; I've made several things in bash that I can run by simply pressing buttons on my keyboard with it.
For example I made one that runs cmus, a very lightweight music player, in the background if it's not already running. Then controls it with my media keys while showing bubbles of what happened.
You can see me skipping, pausing, and [I]removing[/I] songs as they are playing. I know of no normal music player that has the ability to remove the song playing from a button press. So I thought terminal is nice because I can just make my own little script that lets me do so.
Oh yeah I also used a bash script to record that video and automatically upload it to my server.
Terminal is awesome.
[/quote]
Yes I use it quite often, but the general end user should not have to use it or know terminal syntax to get X apps to work. If you like tinerking, making your own servers/services cool! term is great for that you can automate a lot of jobs that way and save yourself some headache, if you know how to use it. If I were to walk at work and tell people "Oh if it doesn't work try Tshooting in terminal(powershell for windows)", they would look at me with a blank stare and ask me what the hell is that.
[editline]asdf[/editline]
[quote]You're correct, so based on that Linux is pretty fantastic as it's developed by the community. When drivers don't exist for something (in the kernel), I find the community has already made modules for it. For example my Wacom Bamboo tablet has no real support for Linux, but looking around there's an [url=https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wacom_Tablet]Arch Wiki page[/url] on how to get it working with a [url=http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/linuxwacom/index.php?title=Main_Page]driver project already started for it[/url].
It may not beat it already being on disk for windows, but knowing that the community is working into getting proper driver support for Wacom tablets is satisfying to me. Even if the community doesn't move very fast.[/QUOTE]
I would feel pretty uneasy running community made drivers in a production enviroment, sure fire way to fuck up SLA's
[editline]26th March 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=kaukassus;35303438]I can get work done much faster with the terminal, than with any other X program.
also, shell/python scripts, can increase productive workflow even more, so I call bullshit on your point.
[/QUOTE]
Great for you, but not to most end users! You can script a whole Datacenter build in powerCLI but most people will go with vSphere why? UI is great, and works out of the box, CLI is powerful and handy if you know how to use it but most apps should be ready to go out of the box not, hold on I gotta write a custom config, the exception is with servers/services
[quote]on topic:
What I really like about linux is, that you can choose wich type of Desktop Enviroment you want. if you don't have a powerful machine, you can install something like openbox, in order to save resources.
In windows, you don't have such an option, so you are always trapped with the same DE.[/QUOTE]
You actually have two DE's Core/Full, have you ever deployed even windows 2008/R2 server, or are you just assuming everything?
[QUOTE=Tucan Sam;35303504]-talking about end users in a production environment-[/QUOTE]
Oh excuse me, I thought we were talking about why WE like Linux. I'm sure Windows would look pretty dumb if you compare it with people who don't know how to use it too.
[QUOTE=Naelstrom;35303666]Oh excuse me, I thought we were talking about why WE like Linux. I'm sure Windows would look pretty dumb if you compare it with people who don't know how to use it too.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I run production environments, I am giving my input on the matter as it applies to me.
Ah I see, continue~
-snip-
The reason I have Linux as my main OS is because my comp is too old. I can't play games and I need a minimalistic setup to get things running decently and Windows doesn't fit the bill. Personally, I find that Windows on a desktop and Linux on a laptop/netbook would be more convenient.
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