[QUOTE=AltFanatic;31308831]isnt sobotnik a wallid kanaan alt anyway
still, dictatorships are bad mmmmkay[/QUOTE]
A Dictatorship is the worst form of government, apart from all the others.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31302790]I want citations of these said atrocities that amount to Gaddafi's records of ordering airstrikes and snipers upon protesters.[/QUOTE]
The Libyan Islamic Fighting Group/Libyan Islamic Movement is the prime example. They are the most powerful rebel faction in the country. They declared a Jihad against Qaddafi and are affiliated with al-Qaeda. They have been declared a fundamentalist terrorist organization by the United Nations following 9/11, and may have even had some involvement with it. Some of their most powerful members, including Abu Yahya al-Libi (and the late Abu Laith al-Libi), have membership in al-Qaeda as well.
In Mistrata, they gang raped a young woman in her home and then proceeded to mutilate her face with knives and bayonets.
([b]REALLY[/b] NSFW)
[url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8da_1307812012[/url]
In Benghazi, they along with their civilian supporters tortured to death a prisoner of war by hanging him upside down from an iron window guard in the street and then beat and pelted him to a bloody pulp with iron rods, stones, pieces of concrete- even with their bare hands.
(same warning applies; NSFW)
[url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1301531604[/url]
If you want freedom and democracy and human rights in Libya, you're not going to get it with these people spearheading the rebellion. Support the Social Democrats (I vouch for them), anything other than the LGIF. You'll end up with another tyrannical dictatorship that's as corrupt and oppressive as Iran's. It's shocking how undisguised they make it that they're religious zealots with close ties to other such fanatical organizations guilty of committing terrorist acts of violence in the name of their religion, and yet people make no objection at this fact. I guess it's because they've never researched it that closely.
They're not freedom fighters; they fight for religious fundamentalism. They and the people who actually follow them and support them with this in mind... are insane.
[QUOTE=yaik9a;31303790]I abandoned that like years ago, stop using ad homein attacks to back up your nonexistent point.[/QUOTE]
You and Sobotnik should have steamy sex
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;31303826]Also, the German (possibly) SS soldier throwing a grenade in the avatar also helps tip the balance[/QUOTE]
Not even close. The photograph you speak of depicts a common Heer (army) soldier from Operation Barbarossa (the German invasion of Soviet Russia). He has no Waffen-SS markings on his tunic's collar nor his helmet. He, and his friend, are nothing more than ordinary German soldiers.
[img]http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ju-87B-Stuka/Barbarossa/images/1-German-Soldier-Throws-Grenade-Operation-Barbarossa-01.jpg[/img]
I found it funny how some people assumed all German soldiers were bad. Like in inglourious basterds you had the "apparently" good side who went around France killing "Nazis". When in fact all they were doing was killing random German soldiers who had probably been conscripted simply for the sport of it.
Now apply this to Libya.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31309597]I found it funny how some people assumed all German soldiers were bad. Like in inglourious basterds you had the "apparently" good side who went around France killing "Nazis". When in fact all they were doing was killing random German soldiers who had probably been conscripted simply for the sport of it.
Now apply this to Libya.[/QUOTE]
Information given by deserters from Gaddafi's side indicated that their campaign was becoming increasingly desperate. Rebel advances and the consistent bombing of targets in the capital pretty much shows this.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31308333]The reason that Gaddafi has support is because unlike many other dictators he actually cared about his people and wanted to improve their lives.
Don't give me shit about human rights or that, because genuinely life in Libya was a lot better under Gaddafi than the king who used to be in power.[/QUOTE]
But it doesn't necessarily mean that life for the average citizen wouldn't improve under a democratically elected government.
[QUOTE=kaine123;31309976]But it doesn't necessarily mean that life for the average citizen wouldn't improve under a democratically elected government.[/QUOTE]
It could improve, but it would be continually plagued by national divisions, attempted coups, rebellions, foreign intervention, corruption and such. A dictatorship also suffers these problems but in such situations a leader is able to deal with these problems and carry a nation through difficult times, whilst a democracy would most likely collaspe in such a situation.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31310162]It could improve, but it would be continually plagued by national divisions, attempted coups, rebellions, foreign intervention, corruption and such. A dictatorship also suffers these problems but in such situations a leader is able to deal with these problems and carry a nation through difficult times, whilst a democracy would most likely collaspe in such a situation.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression[/url]
Yeah, democracy totally fails under stress.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31310162]It could improve, but it would be continually plagued by national divisions, attempted coups, rebellions, foreign intervention, corruption and such. A dictatorship also suffers these problems but in such situations a leader is able to deal with these problems and carry a nation through difficult times, whilst a democracy would most likely collaspe in such a situation.[/QUOTE]
It seems like your saying that dictatorships are less stable than democracies? What.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31310313][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression[/url]
Yeah, democracy totally fails under stress.[/QUOTE]
And may I ask what occurred in Germany as a result?
[QUOTE=RichyZ;31310492]that was kind of the point to the movie, to show that americans were just as bad or good as the germans[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Now look at the differing sides in Libya.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31310436]And may I ask what occurred in Germany as a result?[/QUOTE]
A country countlessly fucked over by revenge-thirsty nations from the Great War and having it's people grow more contemptuous of the Weimar you're bound to have the people look for something other than the form of government the victors had placed up.
America under the Great Depression is already a sterling example as to how democracies do not fail under stress. The collapse of the Weimar was only the result of stomping a boot on down on a defeated nation instead of helping it back up.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31310517]A country countlessly fucked over by revenge-thirsty nations from the Great War and having it's people grow more contemptuous of the Weimar you're bound to have the people look for something other than the form of government the victors had placed up.
America under the Great Depression is already a sterling example as to how democracies do not fail under stress. The collapse of the Weimar was only the result of stomping a boot on down on a defeated nation instead of helping it back up.[/QUOTE]
Germany was actually doing quite well before the great depression hit, and the great depression was what helped Hitler rise to power.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31310517]America under the Great Depression is already a sterling example as to how democracies do not fail under stress. The collapse of the Weimar was only the result of stomping a boot on down on a defeated nation instead of helping it back up.[/QUOTE]
Yet plenty of others did. Besides Germany- Italy, Hungary, Austria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Japan, China, Romania, Bulgaria, and Spain established themselves as authoritarian nations in the years leading up to (in the aftermath of the Great War), during, and after the Great Depression.
[editline]24th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31310615]Germany was actually doing quite well before the great depression hit, and the great depression was what helped Hitler rise to power.[/QUOTE]
After the Social Democrats were ousted, it's true.
[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;31310751]Yet plenty of others did. Besides Germany- Italy, Hungary, Austria, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Japan, China, Romania, Bulgaria, and Spain established themselves as authoritarian nations in the years leading up to (in the aftermath of the Great War), during, and after the Great Depression.[/QUOTE]
One of the primary reasons as to why many of the European countries today adopted a parliamentary system today is they [b]never[/b] want to have such a powerful executive. Not to mention back then in Europe, many of them still had monarchs and powerful heads of state so it they were practically inclined to accept authoritarian governments.
I'm sticking with the idea that if rebels reach the city, an uprising will happen from within. I don't know where it is now, but AL Jazeera posted a video a while ago of a rebel cell in ski masks calling for support for their allies in Misrata, ect. Hopefully those guys are still around
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31310890]One of the primary reasons as to why many of the European countries today adopted a parliamentary system today is they [b]never[/b] want to have such a powerful executive.[/quote]
Or because it was forced on them during/after the war; whenever they were defeated. This was the case with practically all those nations, with Romania, Bulgaria, and China as exceptions (falling under forced Communist rule).
[quote=CabooseRvB]Not to mention back then in Europe, many of them still had monarchs and powerful heads of state so it they were practically inclined to accept authoritarian governments.[/QUOTE]
And many of them did not as well.
when the rebels get there they'll massacre the loyalists and it starts all over again, this has to stop dead.
Jesus Christ. It's going to be like the fall of Berlin.
Should be interesting to see the outcome of this.
Gaddafi could be handling the current situation a lot better.
[QUOTE=kaine123;31333456]Gaddafi could be handling the current situation a lot better.[/QUOTE]Yeah, killing all those protesters is going to cost him in the next election. This may very well be his slaughtergate.
Many Japanese supported the war on the US in 1945.
Didn't stop the allies from using nukes.
Many Germans supported Hitler's wars in 1944.
Didn't stop the allies from bombing, raping, pillaging, and claiming Berlin as their own.
Somehow I doubt the citizens support for Gaddafi will stop NATO from bombing Gaddafi's territory the conventional way.
[QUOTE=certified;31334997]Many Japanese supported the war on the US in 1945.
Didn't stop the allies from using nukes.
Many Germans supported Hitler's wars in 1944.
Didn't stop the allies from bombing, raping, pillaging, and claiming Berlin as their own.
Somehow I doubt the citizens support for Gaddafi will stop NATO from bombing Gaddafi's territory the conventional way.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because the Allies were the bad ones, am I right?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;31335590]Yeah, because the Allies were the bad ones, am I right?[/QUOTE]
I think the raping and pillaging bit is directed at the Soviets. They were kind of systematic about it.
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;31335750]I think the raping and pillaging bit is directed at the Soviets. They were kind of systematic about it.[/QUOTE]
Then he should specify. Don't use the term "Allies" unless you're going to refer to Japanese, German, and Italian forces as "Axis".
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