• 994 mass shootings in 1,004 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like
    477 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;49237002]Wasn't there a police station that was offering money for unregistered guns?[/QUOTE] Yes, there have been several, but those guns get melted down instead of preserved, which means any collector is going to think twice before offering their unregistered antique NFA items. In 1968 we had a machine gun amnesty where unregistered machine guns could be registered with no questions asked and made legal so they could be regulated. This took a lot of illegal automatics out of circulation and added a bunch to the pool for collectors to choose from while keeping them out of the reach of criminals. The problem is a lot of guns missed that because they were in storage/hidden/brought into the country afterward/built out of parts and, while still collectible and historic, will be fed to a smelter if they're found - so plenty of collectors hoard these to save them from destruction in the hopes that another amnesty will occur.
[QUOTE=Megadave;49236952]Idk, mostly just because something needs to be done, I'm just throwing some solutions out there. Better to have mental checks on autos than not be able to have autos at all.[/QUOTE] Problem is, there is a solution with autos. You have to go through legal hoops and ladders in order to buy one, and they are super expensive. Nothing needs to be done about them, as legal auto's have only been used twice in crimes since 34...
no matter what is done, people need to accept that there is nothing short term, anything that is actually effective is going to take decades, hell we may not even be alive to see it out through the end. to me, wanting everything done while we're here is a very selfish mindset. we want everything done NOW or why bother? and because of that we keep putting on bandaids instead of addressing the problem, because bandaids look like they're helping (even if they're doing fuckall). if we want to actually solve this problem (and a fuckload of other problems in this country) we have to remember to plant the seeds of a tree that will bear fruit for our children, even if we never get a chance to taste it.
[QUOTE=elowin;49236026]This is actually counting gang violence? Literally instantly discredited, lol.[/QUOTE] It's pretty dishonest. It counts people getting shot with pellet guns as "mass-shooting". It also cites all injuries, even if the people weren't shot. So if you had a broken leg or a scraped knee, it would count as an "injury" toll for mass-shootings. [url]http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/10/foghorn/auditing-shootingtracker-com-do-they-even-care-about-facts/[/url]
I always check these kinds of threads to see if someone linked the Jim Jefferies gun control piece and it always disappoints me to see that no-one does: [video=youtube;0rR9IaXH1M0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0[/video]
Always a pleasure to read such thought provoking and down to earth suggestions from Europeans with populations less than 1/10th the size of the US on how to get rid of the spooky spooky rooty tooty point-n-shooties. You guys should go into politics. Really.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;49236867]Hahaha no. Thankfully not all of us have Britain-tier gun laws. In fact we're enjoying our scary semiautomatic black rifles while simultaneously having far, far lower violent crime rates than the UK.[/QUOTE] Type for type Italian violent crime rates is about the same as the UK, we just have a very broad legal classification of what counts as violent crime (so much so that there are always idiots popping up going "look, UK doesn't have guns and their violent crime rate is worse than the US"). Crime rates are pretty much independent from gun ownership because crime is caused by socio-economic factors. Guns don't cause crime and guns don't stop crime.
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;49237189]Type for type Italian violent crime rates is about the same as the UK, we just have a very broad legal classification of what counts as violent crime (so much so that there are always idiots popping up going "look, UK doesn't have guns and their violent crime rate is worse than the US"). Crime rates are pretty much independent from gun ownership because crime is caused by socio-economic factors, and guns don't particularly cause or stop crime.[/QUOTE] On a practical scale, they can stop crime, but they don't ever cause crime by themselves. Statistically speaking, a home invasion stopped by the homeowner with a firearm is still reported as a home invasion. But that homeowner is sure glad he had access to a firearm. In an ideal world firearms would never be needed for self defense and could be freely enjoyed for hobby and historic purposes. Unfortunately there can come a time when one would mighty like to have one when their lives are in danger.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;49237148]Always a pleasure to read such thought provoking and down to earth suggestions from Europeans with populations less than 1/10th the size of the US on how to get rid of the spooky spooky rooty tooty point-n-shooties. You guys should go into politics. Really.[/QUOTE] What's your argument here? "I don't like the opinions of Europeans, they're stupid!!!"
[QUOTE=paul simon;49237211]What's your argument here? "I don't like the opinions of Europeans, they're stupid!!!"[/QUOTE] No, it's that many of the anti-gun arguments here are rooted in ignorance and a lack of understanding/experience with firearms on account of their countries of origin. It's no surprise that many Europeans vacationing in the US go home with a different perspective on the topic. Many of you don't have firearms and to you it seems as easy as 'well we've got on fine without them' but you don't have a pre-existing collector economy and strong feelings of independence among your people as a matter of culture. The reality is they are not [B]causing[/B] crime and removing them from the equation doesn't fix the problem anymore than removing video games stops kids from being violent. It only deprives law abiding citizens of the weapons they owned for a variety of purposes from defense to recreation.
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;49237148]Always a pleasure to read such thought provoking and down to earth suggestions from Europeans with populations less than 1/10th the size of the US on how to get rid of the spooky spooky rooty tooty point-n-shooties. You guys should go into politics. Really.[/QUOTE] "You're beyond my imaginary lines so you aren't as intelligent!"
[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;49235913]Anyone ever thought about a "mental issue" crisis?[/QUOTE] Yeah let's just give everyone some Xanax and roll the dice, I'm sure that'll fix the problem right up.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49237231]No, it's that many of the anti-gun arguments here are rooted in ignorance and a lack of understanding/experience with firearms on account of their countries of origin. It's no surprise that many Europeans vacationing in the US go home with a different perspective on the topic. Many of you don't have firearms and to you it seems as easy as 'well we've got on fine without them' but you don't have a pre-existing collector economy and strong feelings of independence among your people as a matter of culture.[/QUOTE] Many of the anti-gun arguments are rooted in ignorance, and many of the pro-gun arguments are rooted in ignorance. In any case, there's a clear problem in the US that needs fixing, and all common sense points to firearms being huge part of the problem. That's what most people are arguing. I have no idea how or if the US will solve the problem, but stricter gun control seems to be the easiest one to carry out. (it's the solution brought up the most anyways, by your politicians and citizens alike.) Will it work? I don't know. Is it worth a try? Probably.
[QUOTE=Qwerty Bastard;49237253]Yeah let's just give everyone some Xanax and roll the dice, I'm sure that'll fix the problem right up.[/QUOTE] National health care? Yeah, let's just slap a band-aid on everyone's injuries and roll the dice, I'm sure that'll fix the problem right up. There's a lot more to that recommendation than that.
[QUOTE=Qwerty Bastard;49237253]Yeah let's just give everyone some Xanax and roll the dice, I'm sure that'll fix the problem right up.[/QUOTE] Do you think that homicides are committed by sane people?
[QUOTE=paul simon;49237211]What's your argument here? "I don't like the opinions of Europeans, they're stupid!!!"[/QUOTE] Don't let your fannypack explode, simmer down. These are people pitching shit ideas that "have worked in so-and-so so they'll work in the us!" Well call me Dan Rather because I've got a news flash for you son: There are almost 400,000,000 people in this country, increasing every day. Different people from different parts of the world, different beliefs, different ideologies, different races. What worked in one place isn't going to fucking work everywhere else. And if you seriously think for a second that people are going to just lie there and take the removal of a staple of the culture of this country since the very beginning, then you might literally be retarded.
[QUOTE=paul simon;49237260]Many of the anti-gun arguments are rooted in ignorance, and many of the pro-gun arguments are rooted in ignorance. In any case, there's a clear problem in the US that needs fixing, and all common sense points to firearms being huge part of the problem. That's what most people are arguing. I have no idea how or if the US will solve the problem, but stricter gun control seems to be the easiest one to carry out. (it's the solution brought up the most anyways, by your politicians and citizens alike.) Will it work? I don't know. Is it worth a try? Probably.[/QUOTE] Firearms are a detail to the problem. "The problem" isn't guns themselves, it's just a symptom of our deep socioeconomic issues. The issue with gun control measures is that most of them seek to ban certain types of firearms, which will have a negative impact on only the people honest enough to turn theirs in, and is also an irreversible process that you can't later say "well that didn't really work, sorry!" That's why people are so reluctant to agree to controls. They're frequently abused where implemented and rarely have the intended effect. The situation needs to be researched and discussed in far greater detail by more intelligent people than currently comprise our government in order to reach a fair compromise that won't simply backfire. [QUOTE=ZakkShock;49237274]Don't let your fannypack explode, simmer down. These are people pitching shit ideas that "have worked in so-and-so so they'll work in the us!" Well call me Dan Rather because I've got a news flash for you son: There are almost 400,000,000 people in this country, increasing every day. Different people from different parts of the world, different beliefs, different ideologies, different races. What worked in one place isn't going to fucking work everywhere else. And if you seriously think for a second that people are going to just lie there and take the removal of a staple of the culture of this country since the very beginning, then you might literally be retarded.[/QUOTE] And youuuu need to relax, since this type of reaction is what cements people's beliefs instead of allowing for open forum and understanding.
[QUOTE=Qwerty Bastard;49237253]Yeah let's just give everyone some Xanax and roll the dice, I'm sure that'll fix the problem right up.[/QUOTE] Why even make this post? Do you honestly believe that he was leading into that? Did you honestly think him bringing up our awful mental health standards was a segue into such a thing? Or maybe you are just trying to stir shit and I took the bait.
[QUOTE=paul simon;49237260]Many of the anti-gun arguments are rooted in ignorance, and many of the pro-gun arguments are rooted in ignorance. In any case, there's a clear problem in the US that needs fixing, and all common sense points to firearms being huge part of the problem. That's what most people are arguing. I have no idea how or if the US will solve the problem, but stricter gun control seems to be the easiest one to carry out. (it's the solution brought up the most anyways, by your politicians and citizens alike) Will it work? I don't know. Is it worth a try? Probably.[/QUOTE] Most people aren't really opposed to gun control, they're just opposed to ineffective gun control laws like the ban on assault weapons and the high capacity magazines. Laws that are proposed by politicians who have Hollywood knowledge of how firearms function. Ideally, I would want mandatory national permits/licenses and firearms training like Sweden to breed a healthier gun culture, but I don't see people advocating for that.
[QUOTE=Qwerty Bastard;49237253]Yeah let's just give everyone some Xanax and roll the dice, I'm sure that'll fix the problem right up.[/QUOTE] we've been doing that already, look how it has been working out
[QUOTE=ZakkShock;49237274]Don't let your fannypack explode, simmer down. These are people pitching shit ideas that "have worked in so-and-so so they'll work in the us!" Well call me Dan Rather because I've got a news flash for you son: There are almost 400,000,000 people in this country, increasing every day. Different people from different parts of the world, different beliefs, different ideologies, different races. What worked in one place isn't going to fucking work everywhere else. And if you seriously think for a second that people are going to just lie there and take the removal of a staple of the culture of this country since the very beginning, then you might literally be retarded.[/QUOTE] Do you think insulting people helps prove your own point? There isn't anything wrong with discussing a topic and offering alternative solutions to a problem which sees thousands killed. This is something that needs to stop, and this is an open forum where the floor is available for everyone to discuss it as they want. Now obviously you might not like that because it doesn't fit your own viewpoint, but that won't stop people discussing it. Everything that people discuss in these gun threads on facepunch has no real consequence in the real world. Nothing will change because we had a 20 page thread every week for the past 2 years on shootings. Your guns aren't going to be taken away because someone suggested it on a webpage, and conversely mental health issues/gang crumes aren't going to be solved by discussing it here. Instead, I would recommend to those Americans that do want to make a difference, actually find a way to do it. We discuss it because we like to share our viewpoints with others and hopefully get civil discussion out of it. Everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion, even if you don't agree.
[img_thumb]http://iowafc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Infographic-3003.jpg[/img_thumb] leaving this here, didn't see it posted yet
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49237208]On a practical scale, they can stop crime, but they don't ever cause crime by themselves. Statistically speaking, a home invasion stopped by the homeowner with a firearm is still reported as a home invasion. But that homeowner is sure glad he had access to a firearm. In an ideal world firearms would never be needed for self defense and could be freely enjoyed for hobby and historic purposes. Unfortunately there can come a time when one would mighty like to have one when their lives are in danger.[/QUOTE] The flip side is that the worst likely outcome of a mugging over here is getting your ribs kicked in or getting cut, where a mugging in the US can quite easily wind up with you dead (and having a gun while being mugged makes you about 4 times as likely to die as not having a gun because guns escalate situations, although I can appreciate the "chance to decide your own fate" aspect). But yeah, the gun didn't cause the mugging etc. Guns can enable or stop individual crimes but they don't change the reason or likelihood of that crime being committed.
[QUOTE=Whibble;49237405][img_thumb]http://iowafc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Infographic-3003.jpg[/img_thumb] leaving this here, didn't see it posted yet[/QUOTE] Interesting, but useless. Look at the sources. 1/3 that I can easily identify [I]predate 9/11[/I]. I want to see an updated version that doesnt use sources that are 20-something years old with the oldest being 30 years old (without checking all of them). Times have definitely changed in the 20+ years that some of these sources were published
[QUOTE=Whibble;49237405][img_thumb]http://iowafc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Infographic-3003.jpg[/img_thumb] leaving this here, didn't see it posted yet[/QUOTE] And here comes the ***** who doesn't realize the UK has a much broader classification of violent crime than the US (and the rest of Europe for that matter). Check further up the page, apparently I can predict the future. UK crime rates, type for type, are considerably lower than the US. We just lump a lot of thing you don't call violent crime into our violent crime statistics, which is why they look worse at first glance. For example in the US rape isn't classified as a violent crime unless forcible, meanwhile we count any physical altercation (even ones not involving a weapon or resulting in injury). Your table of miss-information also fails to take into account the simple fact that gun control in the US follows crime rate, not the other way round. Where was US gun control invented? Wild West, because it had the highest crime rate (despite very high gun ownership). Gun control may be an ineffective band-aid solution to crime rate, but in every case gun control gets introduced to places where the crime rate was already sky-high, so trying to state that gun ownership reduces crime is an outright lie. For the record I'm pro-gun ownership (at least for the US) but don't make up bullshit about the UK to further your case. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Banned for ******* (flaming)" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
Mental health issues in this country go beyond mental illnesses, in general there's little to no support for any kind of mental unwellness which can be as simple as having been pushed around.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;49237659]very low percentages of shooters are proven to have some sort of mental disease your "my mental care!!!" argument is outdated and false [editline]3rd December 2015[/editline] yet australia has more gun deaths per capita than norway does, even if norway has more lax laws than you guys[/QUOTE] It's false to assume that mental care is the entire reason for issues but norway's generally higher quality of life (including mental care) likely contribute to the difference in violence despite laxer gun control. It's important to look at all the factors
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;49237265]Do you think that homicides are committed by sane people?[/QUOTE] Do you think we just have a magic button to make all insane people sane? I fully understand where you're coming from, and I do agree that it truly is people who kill people, not guns, but what you're proposing we fix here is to fix INSANITY. Like all the fields of psychology, neurology, sociology, just join forces to summon Captain Sanity and fix everyone. It's not impossible but it's an extremely lengthy and impractical solution, and believe me, people are working on it but it takes a lot of time, money and research. We still can't even agree on where the line between genetics, conditioning and brain damage is when it comes to manic disorders that cause people to go on killing sprees. Like I'm not saying take everyone's guns away, but what exactly do you propose? It's all fine and well to say that only crazy people go on killing people but what are we actually going to do about it while people are getting murderized by them? There are still some unknowns we need to clear up anyway, like how many mentally ill mass murderers bought their weapons illegally or legally. Often I see the argument that imposing more strict gun control and licensing laws won't stop criminals from buying their guns illegally, and a very large percentage of gun crimes are committed with illegally acquired firearms, but all data I've found is a little fuzzy on exactly how many of those crimes were mass shootings, and how many of the criminals were even mentally ill. I've found a couple sources ([url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/]here[/url] and [url=https://books.google.com/books?id=sQxNVhV-W7oC&lpg=PA33&ots=M-9w9DKXfA&dq=mentally%20ill%20illegal%20gun&lr&pg=PA40#v=onepage&q&f=false]here[/url]) that vaguely suggest that most gun crimes committed by people with diagnosed mental illnesses were done so with legally acquired weapons. It's not airtight data but I think it's enough to keep that conclusion in mind as a possibility. I'm not saying it's a hard fact but it's something we need to investigate, because controlling guns and the gun market is a lot easier than making significant breakthroughs in psychology/neurology and employing armies of psychologists and medical scientists to fix everyone who *might* go on a killing spree. In an ideal world, yes, attacking the very root of the problem (fixing the people instead of the weapons) would be the solution, but we're just vastly, vastly, incredibly unequipped to do that for a mind boggling number of reasons. Gun control is a temporary fix but it's better than just letting everyone go hogwild until we figure out all the mental illness stuff. Maybe a hundred years from now we'll finally figure it out, and we can all buy our guns freely and go out and have a nice afternoon at a shooting range together, but for now I don't think that can happen realistically. tl;dr - Should we impose stricter gun control or should we fix the crazy people? Well my answer, for now is both, and we should stop pretending like knowing the cause of the problem is automatically going to fix it.
'Legally acquired' doesn't mean from a licensed dealer, FYI. It includes private transfer, by which standard, most sales are legal. As far as I know, currently you can only be prohibited from purchasing and owning a firearm if you have committed a felony and not received a pardon. e; However, it looks like all sales in California must go through an FFL, even private transfers.
It doesn't matter if you are against guns anyway, even if lets say Hillary Clinton or someone just as anti-gun got into office, and somehow was able to pass semi-auto bans, I guarantee a large portion of people would not give up their guns. I know I sure as shit wouldn't be giving ANY of my guns away to any government agency, even if they offered to pay for it, it is a clear infringement on the 2nd amendment, they already are infringing on the 2nd amendment with the NFA laws and Machine gun bans. Complete bullshit.
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