• 994 mass shootings in 1,004 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like
    477 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;49238775]It doesn't matter if you are against guns anyway, even if lets say Hillary Clinton or someone just as anti-gun got into office, and somehow was able to pass semi-auto bans, I guarantee a large portion of people would not give up their guns. I know I sure as shit wouldn't be giving ANY of my guns away to any government agency, even if they offered to pay for it, it is a clear infringement on the 2nd amendment, they already are infringing on the 2nd amendment with the NFA laws and Machine gun bans. Complete bullshit.[/QUOTE] I totally agree with this, which is why it's such a hairy issue. I still think it's definitely a problem how easy it is to get guns though, whether legally or otherwise.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;49237659]very low percentages of shooters are proven to have some sort of mental disease your "my mental care!!!" argument is outdated and false [/QUOTE] Only diagnosed mentally ill people according to the 2005 study cited in the paper that you're likely referring to. The rest are undiagnosed, but they could be either sane or mentally ill. The percentage is likely small since there wasn't any widely available healthcare at the time when the study was conducted.
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;49237316]Why even make this post? Do you honestly believe that he was leading into that? Did you honestly think him bringing up our awful mental health standards was a segue into such a thing? Or maybe you are just trying to stir shit and I took the bait.[/QUOTE] What else do you want him to say. People bleat "mental health" with absolutely no follow up.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49236266]You're absolutely right. But we can both agree that there's nothing to be gained from reactively legislating in a way that only really affects people who have already and would only continue to follow the law, correct?[/QUOTE] Idk if anyone's said this yet but considering that we have like 2 shootings a week here won't any legislation be "reactionary" lol
So, here is a good link to go against the op's link. It breaks down actual mass shootings, etc. [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opinion/how-many-mass-shootings-are-there-really.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0[/url]
[QUOTE=Duck M.;49239698]Idk if anyone's said this yet but considering that we have like 2 shootings a week here won't any legislation be "reactionary" lol[/QUOTE] It's reactionary if it's done thoughtlessly and targeting an invented threat; i.e. lawful gun owners.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;49238775]It doesn't matter if you are against guns anyway, even if lets say Hillary Clinton or someone just as anti-gun got into office, and somehow was able to pass semi-auto bans, I guarantee a large portion of people would not give up their guns. I know I sure as shit wouldn't be giving ANY of my guns away to any government agency, even if they offered to pay for it, it is a clear infringement on the 2nd amendment, they already are infringing on the 2nd amendment with the NFA laws and Machine gun bans. Complete bullshit.[/QUOTE] Banning private ownership of goddamn Machine Guns is not infringing on your rights, get over it.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49240063]Banning private ownership of goddamn Machine Guns is not infringing on your rights, get over it.[/QUOTE] You cannot just walk in and buy a "goddamn" Machine gun! How many times do we have to say this? THEY ARE HEAVILY REGULATED.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49239836]It's reactionary if it's done thoughtlessly and targeting an invented threat; i.e. lawful gun owners.[/QUOTE] Any legislation should be done thoughtfully I agree, and I agree with you that this is a delicate issue that should be dealt with intelligently and has many factors that go into it, but what do you mean by targeting the invented threat of lawful gun owners? The idea is that even if a gun is owned lawfully the owner could still commit a mass shooting with it. The legality doesn't take away from lethality. I think that this issue comes from a good number of problems, such as gang violence, poverty, and a poor mental health culture, and that if we want to deal with this problem we need to also address these avenues, but the fact of the matter is that all other first world nations have these problems, albeit to a lesser extent most of the time, and have far lower gun violence statistics. The U.S.'s massive gun culture and huge amount of guns in circulation that result from centuries of it is a big problem.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;49240111]You cannot just walk in and buy a "goddamn" Machine gun! How many times do we have to say this? THEY ARE HEAVILY REGULATED.[/QUOTE] Not to mention they'd generally be unwieldy as fuck, not at all suited to urban combat, especially as an assailant.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;49240111]You cannot just walk in and buy a "goddamn" Machine gun! How many times do we have to say this? THEY ARE HEAVILY REGULATED.[/QUOTE] That's not what I said at all but okay.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;49240111]You cannot just walk in and buy a "goddamn" Machine gun! How many times do we have to say this? THEY ARE HEAVILY REGULATED.[/QUOTE] You could however walk in, put in the order, supply the certs, wait, wait, wait, wait (days? weeks?), pay, and walk out
[QUOTE=Code3Response;49240169]You could however walk in, put in the order, supply the certs, wait, wait, wait, wait (days? weeks?), pay, and walk out[/QUOTE] 6 months minimum on automatics as far as I know, even transferables. [QUOTE=Duck M.;49240129]Any legislation should be done thoughtfully I agree, and I agree with you that this is a delicate issue that should be dealt with intelligently and has many factors that go into it, but what do you mean by targeting the invented threat of lawful gun owners? The idea is that even if a gun is owned lawfully the owner could still commit a mass shooting with it. The legality doesn't take away from lethality. I think that this issue comes from a good number of problems, such as gang violence, poverty, and a poor mental health culture, and that if we want to deal with this problem we need to also address these avenues, but the fact of the matter is that all other first world nations have these problems, albeit to a lesser extent most of the time, and have far lower gun violence statistics. The U.S.'s massive gun culture and huge amount of guns in circulation that result from centuries of it is a big problem.[/QUOTE] I mean that the media is making out ordinary people who happen to own guns for any reason out to be potential killers. It almost reminds me of the red scare on the scale they're trying to whip up this fear of firearms and [B]YOUR NEIGHBOR COULD BE A KILLER WAITING TO HAPPEN[/B]. Other countries have lower gun violence but that's because, you know, they have less guns. They still have comparable violent crime rates in comparable cities although naturally their national averages are going to be lower because we have more bad cities due to dire mismanagement.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49240063]Banning private ownership of goddamn Machine Guns is not infringing on your rights, get over it.[/QUOTE] Who is going to jump through all the hoops to get a machine gun when a pawn shop Hi-Point is better in almost every way.
Guys when someone says "machine gun" they are probably just referring to any "scary gun". No need to get all crazy over auto/semi.
[QUOTE=counterpo0;49240270]Guys when someone says "machine gun" they are probably just referring to any "scary gun". No need to get all crazy over auto/semi.[/QUOTE] Most of the people who use that term in this context don't even know the difference. They literally believe any old AR-15 is fully automatic because they've seen some models that are FA capable.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;49240169]You could however walk in, put in the order, supply the certs, wait, wait, wait, wait (days? weeks?), pay, and walk out[/QUOTE] lmftfy: Walk in, place the order of often $30,000+ for a modern fully automatic rifle, pay for it, then you take either path A or B: A: Supply the already obtained certifications, which include multiple stamps, background checks, and literally giving the ATF the right to inspect your home, weapons storage, and weapons at any moment. Congratulations on making it to this point in the first place, you have more dedication, time, and money than 99% of gun owners in the US. B: You lack the certifications, so you start with an FBI/NICS background check (which is pretty thorough, but more on that later), you get approval from your local chief LEO (this is mainly for suppressors, I would imagine, and am 99% sure, that it is also required on the automatics as well, but either way they are notified you are in possession). Again, this also allows ATF free reign to inspect your place of storage and home to ensure everything is in check. These certifications take about 6 months to pass through the ATF on a best case scenario, anything faster is considered a miracle and the Pope is contacted. After this paperwork period, and you are cleared on all inspections, you are able to purchase a machine gun. The FFL, who has to have more certification and licenses than just your standard gun store, will then release the weapon to you and you are free to take it home. At this point it will more than likely remain an extremely expensive show piece because 1) ammo+automatic=$$$, or 2) there are very, very few public ranges that allow full auto fire, so go find private property. Or, you could be one of the first people this century to commit a murder with a legally acquired automatic rifile
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49240207]6 months minimum on automatics as far as I know, even transferables. I mean that the media is making out ordinary people who happen to own guns for any reason out to be potential killers. It almost reminds me of the red scare on the scale they're trying to whip up this fear of firearms and [B]YOUR NEIGHBOR COULD BE A KILLER WAITING TO HAPPEN[/B]. Other countries have lower gun violence but that's because, you know, they have less guns. They still have comparable violent crime rates in comparable cities although naturally their national averages are going to be lower because we have more bad cities due to dire mismanagement.[/QUOTE] Gun violence is definitely the more lethal of violent crime that goes into that statistic though, and that's why more guns is inherently a bad thing. I get that you have a problem with sensationalist media and hey, so does everyone, but gun owners are not the victims of these incidents like you seem to be insinuating.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;49240289]Gun violence is definitely the more lethal of violent crime that goes into that statistic though, and that's why more guns is inherently a bad thing. I get that you have a problem with sensationalist media and hey, so does everyone, but gun owners are not the victims of these incidents like you seem to be insinuating.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that. Gun owners are the victims of sensationalist media trying to make a buck by turning people against them, though. Either way, I'd rather fix the actual problem that is causing people to kill each other than by banning one of the means they do it with, thereby taking it away from people who are using their guns responsibly.
[QUOTE=Revenge282;49240287]lmftfy: Walk in, place the order of often $30,000+ for a modern fully automatic rifle, pay for it, then you take either path A or B: A: Supply the already obtained certifications, which include multiple stamps, background checks, and literally giving the ATF the right to inspect your home, weapons storage, and weapons at any moment. Congratulations on making it to this point in the first place, you have more dedication, time, and money than 99% of gun owners in the US. B: You lack the certifications, so you start with an FBI/NICS background check (which is pretty thorough, but more on that later), you get approval from your local chief LEO (this is mainly for suppressors, I would imagine, and am 99% sure, that it is also required on the automatics as well, but either way they are notified you are in possession). Again, this also allows ATF free reign to inspect your place of storage and home to ensure everything is in check. These certifications take about 6 months to pass through the ATF on a best case scenario, anything faster is considered a miracle and the Pope is contacted. After this paperwork period, and you are cleared on all inspections, you are able to purchase a machine gun. The FFL, who has to have more certification and licenses than just your standard gun store, will then release the weapon to you and you are free to take it home. At this point it will more than likely remain an extremely expensive show piece because 1) ammo+automatic=$$$, or 2) there are very, very few public ranges that allow full auto fire, so go find private property. Or, you could be one of the first people this century to commit a murder with a legally acquired automatic rifile[/QUOTE] FPS Russia must get so much shit from the ATF.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49240298]I'm not saying that. Gun owners are the victims of sensationalist media trying to make a buck by turning people against them, though. Either way, I'd rather fix the actual problem that is causing people to kill each other than by banning one of the means they do it with, thereby taking it away from people who are using their guns responsibly.[/QUOTE] What is "the actual problem that is causing people to kill each other"? Because other countries with lower gun death rates probably have it as well.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;49240289]Gun violence is definitely the more lethal of violent crime that goes into that statistic though, and that's why more guns is inherently a bad thing. I get that you have a problem with sensationalist media and hey, so does everyone, but gun owners are not the victims of these incidents like you seem to be insinuating.[/QUOTE] How are gun owners not victims to reactionary legislation and negative publicity? It is exactly as Grenadiac said, we are made out to be sleeper murders because we own black bangsticks. Even living in Florida, telling someone that I have an AR-15 that I built, I immediately am almost guaranteed some kind of witty backlash about how I am going to kill someone with it. It's the same idea as in school when one kid acts out, the entire class gets punished. It's not fair, and it doesn't solve anything except breed more tension. [QUOTE=Megadave;49240316]FPS Russia must get so much shit from the ATF.[/QUOTE] If I remember correctly, he mentioned before about how he had the ATF raid his place for some crazy report that they had on him. (This is off my head, so don't quote me. I'll post some reference in a minute) [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/fpsrussia-raid-kyle-myers_n_2979108.html[/url] [url]http://www.921wlhr.com/atf-agents-search-two-properties-in-connection-with-ratliff-homicide/#[/url] [url]https://www.rt.com/usa/atf-raided-farm-fpsrussia-035/[/url]
[QUOTE=Revenge282;49240332]How are gun owners not victims to reactionary legislation and negative publicity? It is exactly as Grenadiac said, we are made out to be sleeper murders because we own black bangsticks. Even living in Florida, telling someone that I have an AR-15 that I built, I immediately am almost guaranteed some kind of witty backlash about how I am going to kill someone with it. It's the same idea as in school when one kid acts out, the entire class gets punished. It's not fair, and it doesn't solve anything except breed more tension.[/QUOTE] This is such a minor problem in comparison to gun violence. Getting your feelings hurt by negative publicity != dying. I doubt any sort of "tension" that we're supposedly breeding by this is going to result in anything nor is it significant. Literally everyone is a victim of sensationalist media and journalism. It's inherently a bad thing and benefits no one except for the producers and publishers of the outlet.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;49240318]What is "the actual problem that is causing people to kill each other"? Because other countries with lower gun death rates probably have it as well.[/QUOTE] They do. They have that problem and they have higher death rates to other weapons and attempted murders - it's called poverty and social decay. Stop looking at single-item deaths and look at overall death/violent crime rates. You will find some recurring themes. People don't want to kill each other [B]because[/B] they have guns, they just use guns to do it where convenient.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;49240318]What is "the actual problem that is causing people to kill each other"? Because other countries with lower gun death rates probably have it as well.[/QUOTE] They also have less guns? Not less crime.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49240373]They do. They have that problem and they have higher death rates to other weapons and attempted murders - it's called poverty and social decay.[/QUOTE] I highly doubt that the higher death rates as a result of other weapons make up for the smaller gun death rates by nature of guns being naturally more efficient at doing their job. If they do then you got me. [QUOTE=soulharvester;49240397]They also have less guns? Not less crime.[/QUOTE] Yes that's entirely the point. Other countries have problems like high crime rates but by having less guns they have lower fatality rates, unless like I said, fatalities in violent crime by other means makes up for the statistic.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49240286]Most of the people who use that term in this context don't even know the difference. They literally believe any old AR-15 is fully automatic because they've seen some models that are FA capable.[/QUOTE] No I mean 'machine gun' when I say 'machine gun' , it is not infringing on anyone's rights to prohibit or SEVERELY regulate the ownership of god damn SAW's.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49240408]No I mean 'machine gun' when I say 'machine gun' , it is not infringing on anyone's rights to prohibit or SEVERELY regulate the ownership of god damn SAW's.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's what I thought you're actually entirely wrong and have zero understanding of the gun laws in this country so please read up and come back later when you've bothered to educate yourself before taking a side tia [editline]3rd December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Duck M.;49240405]I highly doubt that the higher death rates as a result of other weapons make up for the smaller gun death rates by nature of guns being naturally more efficient at doing their job. If they do then you got me.[/QUOTE] Count attempted murders in, the intent is what matters to a criminologist.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;49240408]No I mean 'machine gun' when I say 'machine gun' , it is not infringing on anyone's rights to prohibit or SEVERELY regulate the ownership of god damn SAW's.[/QUOTE] Which is why you can't just walk in and buy one. Truthfully, even if they were openly sold, something like a SAW wouldn't be this huge killing gun. Damn thing would still be super expensive, and gang bangers would still gravitate towards Hi-Points and crap.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49240427]Yeah that's what I thought you're actually entirely wrong and have zero understanding of the gun laws in this country so please read up and come back later when you've bothered to educate yourself before taking a side tia [editline]3rd December 2015[/editline] Count attempted murders in, the intent is what matters to a criminologist.[/QUOTE] Tell me oh all knowing gun wizard, what is a machine gun?
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