Trans Pacific Partnership delegates fail to reach final deal.
34 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Swilly;48373053]There's no point in arguing with Sobotnik, he sticks to 'everything should be open because the free market regulates itself'. And if you mention other economies, he'll glorify capitalism.[/QUOTE]
Despite the strawman. I don't think everything should be open. The free market itself requires some fine tuning too.
Not to mention that you haven't addressed any of the arguments I've made.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48372306]By the same token, this should bring your sources under scrutiny considering they are almost exclusively from dairy farmers who would very much have a vested interest in protection of the dairy sector.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, my main strife was how the prices were being compared with different quantities. Just a note, my sources have their own sources linking to government documents or something similar (not to say that yours don't do the same).
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48372306]Well I'm against agricultural subsidies too, since the vast majority of them exist more for political reasons than sound economics. Comparative advantage makes it cheaper to import goods from abroad in many instances, but for some reason the west has an unhealthy obsession with supporting agriculture it doesn't need and using land that frankly is better left to return to a more wild state rather than trying to encourage farmers to squeeze extra food out of it that nobody is going to buy.[/QUOTE]
Prime farm land is actually being developed at an alarming rate. Pretty soon there'll be no room for current dairy farms to expand and they'll eventually be forced to sell under the pressure of the government or other real estate agencies to satisfy larger populations.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48372306]The problem is that it's textbook rent-seeking. The number of Canadian dairy farmers has been declining for years in addition to the number of dairy farms.[/QUOTE]
The number of actual dairy farmers is declining as there's less labor required with the kind of technology coming out (e.g. robotic milking). Also, remove the quota system and the small time farmers will be the first to go out of business resulting in these "factory farms" people talk about becoming what they're called.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48372306]In addition, it's incredibly hard for new farmers to enter the Canadian dairy markets - many new ones are saddled with heavy debt.
[url]http://canadiansmallflockers.blogspot.ca/2013/04/the-new-chicken-farmer.html[/url]
Giving poultry as an example (which is regulated like dairy), you see that the return on investment is tiny, and that a significant proportion of expenses is accounted for by deleterious effects of supply management.[/QUOTE]
As stated previously, removing the quota system would result in initial cost being less but profits would also be less and erratic (requiring expenses in other areas to be higher in order to make as much profit brought with the quota system).
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48372306]Imports are virtually nonexistent because of high tariffs. The only reason Canada has some imports is because it skirts around the provisions of trade treaties by accepting the bare minimum necessary. These imports are small.
Ignoring the TPP, there is also the trade treaties between Europe and Canada (CETA). There is no risk of us selling you shitty cheese, and the removal of the extortionately high tariffs on imported agricultural goods would benefit both Canada and Europe in the long term and promote increased investment and development.
The problem I see with Canadian agriculture is that even if supply management ensured high quality milk, it has still done nothing to promote (let alone maintain) the efforts of existing dairy farmers. Their numbers have been in terminal decline, even with significant support from the Canadian state.
[url]http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canadian-farms-getting-bigger-but-rarer-1.1244248[/url]
With supply management in place, this means that a decreasing number of Canadian farmers are now owning an increasing share of the market. With virtually no competition, this means that a smaller number of wealthier people are coming to predominate. You know, a bit like a monopolistic corporation.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how nearly $1,000,000,000 in imports is considered "virtually nonexistant" and "bare minimum." As far as quality milk goes, 100% Canadian Milk uses these points to inform the consumer why Canadian milk is the right product compared to others ([url=http://www.dairyfarmers.ca/]source[/url], [url=http://www.dairyfarmers.ca/news-centre/news/policy/majority-of-canadians-want-their-milk-to-be-produced-in-canada]more specifically[/url]), as far as governmental support goes on the matter, it's practically nonexistent. People slander the dairy industry and vandalize our produced product without consequence and our government has made little to no effort in informing Canadian citizens on what we're all about, there's also the fact that the conservative/"Harper" government wants to get rid of supply management (so our government is working against us). Also, I don't see where your last point is going, doesn't it make sense for Canadians to run businesses in Canada? You're also twisting the definition of a monopoly, it's when there's a single company running in an entire market, not a single nation running in its own market.
Canadians don't run the dairy industry around the world.
[quote]The number of actual dairy farmers is declining as there's less labor required with the kind of technology coming out (e.g. robotic milking). Also, remove the quota system and the small time farmers will be the first to go out of business resulting in these "factory farms" people talk about becoming what they're called.[/quote]
Except this is already underway. In 1945 there were about 500,000 dairy farms in Canada. When supply management was introduced in 1971, there was 122,000. Today there are 13,000 (half of them in Quebec).
If these regulations are meant to protect small farmers, then the loss of 90% of all farms since 1971 should tell you that quite clearly this isn't happening.
In addition, this is still underway. The number of farmers and farms is still dropping steadily. The fact remains that a smaller number of people with bigger farms and greater wealth are making up an increasing share of Canadian dairy. This is a trend that supply management has failed to even slow down, let alone mitigate.
[quote]As stated previously, removing the quota system would result in initial cost being less but profits would also be less and erratic (requiring expenses in other areas to be higher in order to make as much profit brought with the quota system).[/quote]
That's usually the point of a business. A business takes risks and innovates, rather than relying on a constant year-round support that gives them artificially inflated prices for their goods.
The fact that there are much fewer farmers around (and the growth of the average farm) also seems to imply that its the wealthier farmers who mostly benefit from supply management (and will increasingly do so in the future).
[quote]I don't see how nearly $1,000,000,000 in imports is considered "virtually nonexistant" and "bare minimum."[/quote]
Because the size of the import relative to domestic production is tiny:
[url]http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/pdf/histprod_e.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/index_e.php?s1=dff-fcil&s2=imp-exp&s3=imp[/url]
Milk production peaked in the 1960s (in spite of technological improvements for production and a larger/richer population that would demand more milk), at around 80 million hectolitres.
In 2014, Canada produced 78 million hectolitres of milk. In contrast, it imported 55 million kilograms, which converts to around 0.55 hectolitres.
Of all the milk in Canada in 2014, only 0.7% was imported.
[quote]Also, I don't see where your last point is going, doesn't it make sense for Canadians to run businesses in Canada? You're also twisting the definition of a monopoly, it's when there's a single company running in an entire market, not a single nation running in its own market.[/QUOTE]
The point is that each country focuses on its own strengths. If Canada can produce dairy products more cheaply and/or to a higher quality than foreign competitors, then Canadians will buy it. Foreigners will also buy it if they like it. Given that a lot of focus and attention is put on the quality of Canadian milk, I'm sure health conscious people will be interested in buying it.
And by monopoly I'm talking about rent-seeking activities here. The point is that most economists see supply management as a form of legally mandated cartel which effectively drives up prices and gets rid of competition (both domestic and foreign) by controlling supply. The fact that it's difficult for new dairy farmers to enter the market (and the fact that many small producers are leaving the business) means that supply management is largely for the benefit of a shrinking pool of farmers.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48373637]Except this is already underway. In 1945 there were about 500,000 dairy farms in Canada. When supply management was introduced in 1971, there was 122,000. Today there are 13,000 (half of them in Quebec).
If these regulations are meant to protect small farmers, then the loss of 90% of all farms since 1971 should tell you that quite clearly this isn't happening.[/QUOTE]
Just because there's less farmers needed to run a farm doesn't mean that the farms are going with them.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48373637]In addition, this is still underway. The number of farmers and farms is still dropping steadily. The fact remains that a smaller number of people with bigger farms and greater wealth are making up an increasing share of Canadian dairy. This is a trend that supply management has failed to even slow down, let alone mitigate.[/QUOTE]
It's a trend of time, not supply management. Technology advances and we find ourselves requiring less and less people for certain jobs. See this video:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU[/media]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48373637]That's usually the point of a business. A business takes risks and innovates, rather than relying on a constant year-round support that gives them artificially inflated prices for their goods.
The fact that there are much fewer farmers around (and the growth of the average farm) also seems to imply that its the wealthier farmers who mostly benefit from supply management (and will increasingly do so in the future).[/QUOTE]
Risks are made and innovations are done. Every day a farmer is at risk of being trampled by an animal, falling and drowning in to a manure pit, getting their arm caught in machinery and torn off, falling from silos and more. Don't talk to me about risk because I know all about it, my father had his own hand crushed under tons of weight and luckily still has it today.
I have feeling you have no idea what goes on in farming, have you even heard of robotic milking?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hojnPpvI6-I[/media]
You've also forgotten that a lot of farms are passed on from generation to generation and the wealth+experience is passed on.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48373637]Because the size of the import relative to domestic production is tiny:
[url]http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/pdf/histprod_e.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/index_e.php?s1=dff-fcil&s2=imp-exp&s3=imp[/url]
Milk production peaked in the 1960s (in spite of technological improvements for production and a larger/richer population that would demand more milk), at around 80 million hectolitres.
In 2014, Canada produced 78 million hectolitres of milk. In contrast, it imported 55 million kilograms, which converts to around 0.55 hectolitres.
Of all the milk in Canada in 2014, only 0.7% was imported.[/QUOTE]
Why would we import milk when we can already produce what we buy? That would just result in an abundance of milk and would hurt the economy.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48373637]The point is that each country focuses on its own strengths. If Canada can produce dairy products more cheaply and/or to a higher quality than foreign competitors, then Canadians will buy it. Foreigners will also buy it if they like it. Given that a lot of focus and attention is put on the quality of Canadian milk, I'm sure health conscious people will be interested in buying it.[/QUOTE]
Canadians do buy it, just take a look at your posted links and our exports: [url]http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/index_e.php?s1=dff-fcil&s2=imp-exp&s3=exp[/url]
Our exports are less than our imports for dairy and far below our domestic production, doesn't that say enough? You also have to understand that some dairy has a short shelf life, so shipping it across seas could make it difficult to sell compared to selling it right in our own backyard.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48373637]And by monopoly I'm talking about rent-seeking activities here. The point is that most economists see supply management as a form of legally mandated cartel which effectively drives up prices and gets rid of competition (both domestic and foreign) by controlling supply. The fact that it's difficult for new dairy farmers to enter the market (and the fact that many small producers are leaving the business) means that supply management is largely for the benefit of a shrinking pool of farmers.[/QUOTE]
Then why would you bring a monopoly up at all? While supply management might be horrible for greedy foreign corporations, it's very beneficial for Canada and the consumer (as you initially tried to say otherwise). As I've said before, getting rid of supply management in Canada won't make it any easier to get in to dairy farming, it might just make it harder (unless subsidies is introduced which would just result in everyone paying more taxes regardless of whether they buy dairy or not).
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