[QUOTE=J!NX;50261088]as much as I hate cigarettes and want them to stop existing this is dumb as hell
lower the drinking age and keep the smoking age at 18.
you aren't going to fix anything by making it harder to access, or by even banning it. 12 year olds are going to smoke still, and 18 year olds now have to ask strange people to buy smokes for them, who are grown adults who are old enough to join the military. This doesn't magically make the issue go away. Lax laws regarding this stuff work because it doesn't strike the rebellious side of people and people can feel comfortable and be better informed about their decisions because money can instead be spent on educating them about it rather than arresting them because they wanted a smoke.[/QUOTE]
Honestly I fucking hate saying this because I sound like a broken soccer mom, but I really agree with the 21 year drinking age. We are retarded in the USA with alcohol, our whole culture around it, especially when younger, is to get drunk as fuck and party, and the drunker the better.
At 18 Alcohol will easily fill up highschools MORE so than they already do. I know how easy it is to already get it at 18 in high school, been their and done that plenty of times, but at 18 it would fill up the schools more so than it already does. It would also trickle down the ages faster imo.
Drinking while at school is already an issue, so many fucking kids do it, and it really would get worse.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;50263000]ok and what if the legal adult age is raised to 25 to coincide with statistical drop in car accidents and maturity in brain development?[/QUOTE]
but the argument doesn't exist because of what ifs, the argument exists because of the double standard we're seeing [I]now[/I]
the "correct" age for adulthood is a whole other discussion
[QUOTE=The Aussie;50261558]Works well in Australia where it's almost $30 for a pack of winnie blues[/QUOTE]
Holy fuck, around 5€ here. Age limit at 18. There are no tobacco adverts anywhere though. And they're not on display in stores, just behind some covers.
Also the clerks are specifically instructed to ask for ID's if the customer looks "younger than 30" years. :v:
[QUOTE=J!NX;50261111]They should focus on educating against it, but its shame that DARE is a giant JOKE and that'll only make them assume it wouldn't work if they tried it again
if they made a program that pretended to give a shit about the people they're educating and pretended to actually trust them as intellectuals by not outright lying to them, maybe it would have worked
misinformation only goes so far[/QUOTE]
The biggest issue with antismoking education is it heavily frontloads the big C
obviously that's a problem, but kids just think 'oh it'll take years for that to happen' I know I did
they should put a bit more focus on the gradual decline in health, increased aging in skin etc. Because teenagers aren't worried about dying, but they'd probs be more worried about decaying and getting old quicker
[QUOTE=Kylel999;50262457]
I think they should take the Aussie route of straight up printing horrific images of the results of smoking on the packages[/QUOTE]
we have this in the UK and it's never really pushed anyone i've ever known to stop smoking. i've met people that go as far as to take a pair of scissors and actually cut the image out of the tobacco pouch but it's only ever because they're pretty disgusted by some of the pictures. worst case scenario i'll simply flip my tobacco over so i don't have to see the side with the fucken gore, it's not making me want to stop smoking it's just making me want to throw up
All this is going to do is make young adults risk felonies with fake ids.
[QUOTE=TCB;50263393]we have this in the UK and it's never really pushed anyone i've ever known to stop smoking. i've met people that go as far as to take a pair of scissors and actually cut the image out of the tobacco pouch but it's only ever because they're pretty disgusted by some of the pictures. worst case scenario i'll simply flip my tobacco over so i don't have to see the side with the fucken gore, it's not making me want to stop smoking it's just making me want to throw up[/QUOTE]
See, I don't understand that mentality. If I saw gore photos on a product that is proven to cause said gore photos to be part of my body, I'd stop using that product, no matter how much I liked it.
Per example, I used to smoke weed a lot, but between feeling mild sick all the time and not being able to run at all, I gave it up. Same with the occasional cig. I found things in my life that were more important to me than the fleeting high they gave me and realized that chasing the rush wasn't going to bring me any sort of personal fulfillment outside of being part of a clique I wasn't sure I wanted to be engaged with anyway.
It's obviously a personal decision man, but ask yourself why you use a product that kills you, ruins your bank account all while causing damage to current and future relationships. I did, and I couldn't give myself a reasonable answer, which is why I forced myself to quit.
It's not the government's responsibility to stop people from doing perfectly legal things and it's totally false that smokers put a burden on the healthcare system. They actually cost less on average because of their shorter lifespan. Extremely healthy people are the most expensive. ([URL]http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050029[/URL])
Everything should be legal at 18 and there shouldn't be extra taxes on any of it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50263462]It's not the government's responsibility to stop people from doing perfectly legal things and it's totally false that smokers put a burden on the healthcare system. They actually cost less on average because of their shorter lifespan. Extremely healthy people are the most expensive. ([URL]http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050029[/URL])
Everything should be legal at 18 and there shouldn't be extra taxes on any of it.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, but only because making everything legal at that age, all at once will drive up teenage mortality rates in the short term (ten years after the switch) with no tangible benefit to society at large in the long term.
[QUOTE=ImimI;50263495]I disagree, but only because making everything legal at that age, all at once will drive up teenage mortality rates in the short term (ten years after the switch) with no tangible benefit to society at large in the long term.[/QUOTE]
They're adults. If they want to kill themselves with bad choices, then they should be able to. Having freedom includes the freedom to make bad choices.
It sounds to me that what you really want is to up the age of adulthood.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50263580]They're adults. If they want to kill themselves with bad choices, then they should be able to. Having freedom includes the freedom to make bad choices.
It sounds to me that what you really want is to up the age of adulthood.[/QUOTE]
I was talking more about motor vehicle accidents that could potentially include other innocent lives, but I see your point.
Realistically, if we wanted to legalize things for people at 18, we would need to treat people like adults at an earlier age and give them more autonomy in their decisions prior to the day they become 18. Which I personally disagree with. I don't think that society is ready or able to treat the vast majority of teens like adults, and I don't think the majority of teens are capable of thinking of things in the long term capacity required to be an adult. It's just not feasible.
I understand where you're coming from, and I do believe that we can better prepare teens for adulthood in a myriad of ways (teach civics, economics, don't give out as many participation awards, stress long term planning, etc.) but I don't believe society is there, or willing to go there in the near future.
Honestly, the only way to make someone an adult is to make them live and work independently. No amount of education will do it and, interestingly enough, we've continually pushed back that point of life. Many people don't reach independence until 22-25 when they used to reach that point closer to 18.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50263648]Honestly, the only way to make someone an adult is to make them live and work independently. No amount of education will do it and, interestingly enough, we've continually pushed back that point of life. Many people don't reach independence until 22-25 when they used to reach that point closer to 18.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but look at the markets man. It's virtually impossible for someone fresh out of highschool to start providing for themselves because there just aren't enough jobs that meet the salary or time requirements for that to be feasible. Anything that pays well requires a longer education, and getting that takes four or five years at least, then tack on the time it takes to land a position and you're in your mid twenties before you start contributing for the first time.
It's horrible and I wish it were another way, but with the rise of machinery in most labor fields and the strong push in most western societies for secondary education and "following your heart rather than economics" it's no wonder that we face so many issues in our young labor force.
[QUOTE=ImimI;50263675]I agree, but look at the markets man. It's virtually impossible for someone fresh out of highschool to start providing for themselves because there just aren't enough jobs that meet the salary or time requirements for that to be feasible. Anything that pays well requires a longer education, and getting that takes four or five years at least, then tack on the time it takes to land a position and you're in your mid twenties before you start contributing for the first time.
It's horrible and I wish it were another way, but with the rise of machinery in most labor fields and the strong push in most western societies for secondary education and "following your heart rather than economics" it's no wonder that we face so many issues in our young labor force.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I think that we waste absolutely tons of time throughout much of our middle and high schools education. I had to retake a lot of the content, at a much higher level, in college anyway through content overlap. We should just make high school classes be at a college level and have kids leave high school with the equivilent of an associate's degree. That would effectively cut 2 years out of the education cycle without missing any actual education.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50263706]Personally, I think that we waste absolutely tons of time throughout much of our middle and high schools education. I had to retake a lot of the content, at a much higher level, in college anyway through content overlap. We should just make high school classes be at a college level and have kids leave high school with the equivilent of an associate's degree.[/QUOTE]
If everyone did that, then we'd have an overabundance of associate's degrees and people would still need to go on with further education.
This is not a solvable issue, in my opinion. It's a reality that there are simply not enough jobs for all people to do something that will be for the benefit of society. We've never been at this point in human development before. Machinery is not talked about enough in regards to how it changes our lives.
At least not in a "holy shit we should definitely do something about this" sense.
I am betting on ten more years before cars are fully autonomous, and then all of our problems become magnified even more.
[editline]5th May 2016[/editline]
I feel like I'm changing the direction of the thread. My bad guys.
California, cigarettes, something something my opinion changes nothing.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;50263261]Honestly I fucking hate saying this because I sound like a broken soccer mom, but I really agree with the 21 year drinking age. We are retarded in the USA with alcohol, our whole culture around it, especially when younger, is to get drunk as fuck and party, and the drunker the better.
At 18 Alcohol will easily fill up highschools MORE so than they already do. I know how easy it is to already get it at 18 in high school, been their and done that plenty of times, but at 18 it would fill up the schools more so than it already does. It would also trickle down the ages faster imo.
Drinking while at school is already an issue, so many fucking kids do it, and it really would get worse.[/QUOTE]
I think we need to just stop with the "DON'T DRINK >:(" campaigns we do now and instead shift to "Remember: Not everyone's going to like alcohol, don't be a jackass about it" instead
same with drugs, really
[QUOTE=lavacano;50264411]I think we need to just stop with the "DON'T DRINK >:(" campaigns we do now and instead shift to "Remember: Not everyone's going to like alcohol, don't be a jackass about it" instead
same with drugs, really[/QUOTE]
Well alcohol education towards kids is of course going to be centered on not drinking, most education for adults is about drinking responsibly unless you're in substance abuse treatment. Drug use should not be encouraged (maybe besides Marijuana) since there is no responsible way to use drugs like cocaine, crack, or heroin for example.
fucking nanny state rules help no one
I kinda think that medicaid shouldn't be allowed for heavy smokers but disagree with this decision
[QUOTE=ImimI;50263442][B]See, I don't understand that mentality. If I saw gore photos on a product that is proven to cause said gore photos to be part of my body, I'd stop using that product, no matter how much I liked it.
[/B]
Per example, I used to smoke weed a lot, but between feeling mild sick all the time and not being able to run at all, I gave it up. Same with the occasional cig. I found things in my life that were more important to me than the fleeting high they gave me and realized that chasing the rush wasn't going to bring me any sort of personal fulfillment outside of being part of a clique I wasn't sure I wanted to be engaged with anyway.
It's obviously a personal decision man, but ask yourself why you use a product that kills you, ruins your bank account all while causing damage to current and future relationships. I did, and I couldn't give myself a reasonable answer, which is why I forced myself to quit.[/QUOTE]
I smoke and I don't like it. I'm addicted to nicotine. It's not a case of 'liking it'
Should be above the age of 21 or born before 1998 so those already addicted to nicotine won't resort to criminal activity.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;50263000]ok and what if the legal adult age is raised to 25 to coincide with statistical drop in car accidents and maturity in brain development?[/QUOTE]
That would be pretty fucking stupid.
We call that statistical drop in car accidents "experience" because by that point you've been on the road so much you're more aware of all possibilities that can happen on the road and your instincts are more refined then when you just started driving. Raise the legal adult age and driving age and then BOOM car accident statistics for 25 years old and up skyrocket.
Our society is built on the basis of adulthood and what in the hell will you do to keep the no longer "adults" occupied until they are of legal adult age? They are out of high school and if they aren't at college or attending college while living with their parents they are working and on their own. You think you're taking care of everyone but this neo-liberal agenda just aggravates people and will screw them over worse then some kids being able to buy cigarettes at 18.
[QUOTE=ImimI;50263675]I agree, but look at the markets man. It's virtually impossible for someone fresh out of highschool to start providing for themselves because there just aren't enough jobs that meet the salary or time requirements for that to be feasible. Anything that pays well requires a longer education, and getting that takes four or five years at least, then tack on the time it takes to land a position and you're in your mid twenties before you start contributing for the first time.
It's horrible and I wish it were another way, but with the rise of machinery in most labor fields and the strong push in most western societies for secondary education and "following your heart rather than economics" it's no wonder that we face so many issues in our young labor force.[/QUOTE]
Expand vocational education to be free for all post-secondaries to encourage the youth to obtain a skill. Skills are in higher demand then any degree currently is. Building trades, transportation technologies, health services, and more all in need of skilled workers.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;50261219]Old enough to goto war, not old enough to smoke or drink.
Gotta love it. Seriously though, this doesn't really surprise me considering how retarded California has been recently regarding almost anything tobacco related. For example, with ecigs, they went on a massive campaign trying to state that it's more harmful then doing fucking heroin.[/QUOTE]
the marine's on base here aren't effected by the bill, woo
[QUOTE=ElectronicG19;50264598]I smoke and I don't like it. I'm addicted to nicotine. It's not a case of 'liking it'[/QUOTE]
Then break your addiction. Get a vape pen, get nicotine patches, chew (at least your lungs are saved/it's easier to use in public), get a quit buddy, something. Save your health, save your wallet.
[QUOTE=ImimI;50265455]Then break your addiction. Get a vape pen, get nicotine patches, chew (at least your lungs are saved/it's easier to use in public), get a quit buddy, something. Save your health, save your wallet.[/QUOTE]
Government is about to regulate Ecigs like tobacco, so even that's going to cost more. Vaping is much better than smoking, but some people are highly against it for whatever bs reason.
[QUOTE=Pilot1215;50265612]Government is about to regulate Ecigs like tobacco, so even that's going to cost more. Vaping is much better than smoking, but some people are highly against it for whatever bs reason.[/QUOTE]
I mean, it's still not healthy to vape, but it's definitely better than smoking. The probable reason for putting regulations on vaping is the standard "think of the children" argument. Flavors kids like, unhealthy habit, etc. etc.
[QUOTE=ImimI;50265653]I mean, it's still not healthy to vape, but it's definitely better than smoking. The probable reason for putting regulations on vaping is the standard "think of the children" argument. Flavors kids like, unhealthy habit, etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
That's an issue though, no store openly sold e liquid to kids, you had to be 18 to get it, and emotional appeals never make good laws. The government should really just step aside, or at least the federal part.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;50263261]Honestly I fucking hate saying this because I sound like a broken soccer mom, but I really agree with the 21 year drinking age. We are retarded in the USA with alcohol, our whole culture around it, especially when younger, is to get drunk as fuck and party, and the drunker the better.
At 18 Alcohol will easily fill up highschools MORE so than they already do. I know how easy it is to already get it at 18 in high school, been their and done that plenty of times, but at 18 it would fill up the schools more so than it already does. It would also trickle down the ages faster imo.
Drinking while at school is already an issue, so many fucking kids do it, and it really would get worse.[/QUOTE]
A large part of why high schoolers like to get drunk as fuck is precisely because it's taboo. They never get a chance to learn moderation, they're just told 'Don't do this' by authority figures when the rebellious side of the mind is strongest. [i]Of fucking course they're gonna get shitfaced in a hurry.[/i] Telling a sixteen year old not to do something is, effectively, daring them to do that exact thing, and making it a jail sentence only fucks them over.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50263264]but the argument doesn't exist because of what ifs, the argument exists because of the double standard we're seeing [I]now[/I]
the "correct" age for adulthood is a whole other discussion[/QUOTE]
The correct age for adulthood varies so wildly that it's impossible to ensconce it into law. Some people are mature enough to handle the real world before they even reach high school, some people never truly mature at all. Pick a point along that scale you'll find hordes of people that met/will meet it.
Something like maturity just cannot be pegged to a number. Setting it at 18 is about as good as we're gonna get.[QUOTE=ImimI;50263442]See, I don't understand that mentality. If I saw gore photos on a product that is proven to cause said gore photos to be part of my body, I'd stop using that product, no matter how much I liked it.
Per example, I used to smoke weed a lot, but between feeling mild sick all the time and not being able to run at all, I gave it up. Same with the occasional cig. I found things in my life that were more important to me than the fleeting high they gave me and realized that chasing the rush wasn't going to bring me any sort of personal fulfillment outside of being part of a clique I wasn't sure I wanted to be engaged with anyway.
It's obviously a personal decision man, but ask yourself why you use a product that kills you, ruins your bank account all while causing damage to current and future relationships. I did, and I couldn't give myself a reasonable answer, which is why I forced myself to quit.[/QUOTE]
It's simple to explain: The brain becomes dependent on the many active chemicals ingested, causing the person to [i]need[/i] whatever it is. You weren't truly addicted to anything if you put it down that easily, someone who is would be going through hell to cold turkey it like that.[QUOTE=ImimI;50263495]I disagree, but only because making everything legal at that age, all at once will drive up teenage mortality rates in the short term (ten years after the switch) with no tangible benefit to society at large in the long term.[/QUOTE]
That's fine. Their choice. As long as their stupidity doesn't directly involve me I couldn't care less if they do stupid shit. Hell they're going to do it whether it's legal or not anyway.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50263648]Honestly, the only way to make someone an adult is to make them live and work independently. No amount of education will do it and, interestingly enough, we've continually pushed back that point of life. Many people don't reach independence until 22-25 when they used to reach that point closer to 18.[/QUOTE]
And discourage people reaching for a phone every time even the slightest thing needs done. Simple things like changing your own light switch or flat tire go a long way towards fostering the independence necessary for adult life. People keep getting trained to just 'call someone' whenever something goes wrong, they're trained into staying dependent on others to solve their problems long after they're capable of doing those things on their own.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50264951]
Expand vocational education to be free for all post-secondaries to encourage the youth to obtain a skill. Skills are in higher demand then any degree currently is. Building trades, transportation technologies, health services, and more all in need of skilled workers.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. If this was the case in '08 when I graduated I'd probably be making 50k/yr right now. Not 20k. I genuinely enjoy working on and with cars and I could see myself a career mechanic, but I can't afford the schooling necessary so I'm stuck at a dead-end retail hell shitjob until I can find a workaround or something.
[QUOTE=ImimI;50265653]I mean, it's still not healthy to vape, but it's definitely better than smoking. The probable reason for putting regulations on vaping is the standard "think of the children" argument. Flavors kids like, unhealthy habit, etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
The probable reason is all the douchebags that walk around pretending they're steam trains.
not gonna do shit. I started smoking when I was 14 and not being 18 never stopped anything. even well over a decade later I still know what places do and don't card.
[QUOTE=butre;50266137]not gonna do shit. I started smoking when I was 14 and not being 18 never stopped anything. even well over a decade later I still know what places do and don't card.[/QUOTE]
Same. Or like 15.
I'd say only extreme dumb-asses start smoking when they are legally able to, i.e. immediately at 18. (If you go to the army it's fine though.)
Hell, make a study asking people when they started smoking, what do you think the results would be? I hereby hypothesize that most people started smoking before the legal limit.
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