• Study: Disciplinary spanking increases childhood defiance and mental health issues
    137 replies, posted
There was a few times I got my ass smacked but I knew exactly why. It taught me to respect my parents but maybe it was more that they always explained WHY I was punished rather than just doing it
[QUOTE=Retardation;50211869]Not anymore the second they enroll into any educational establishment starting from elementary school, and are exposed to the world and to people other than their mother, father or siblings. This is why you have goth kids who grew up in almost perfect suburban family environments. A longing for a subculture develops at a very early age. This is why many adolescent children are "rebels" even though their upbringing is almost utopian-level of stable and non-judgmental. Because they are influenced by a plethora of other things outside the very limited and sometimes even completely irrelevant sphere of parental influence. Thinking that parents hold all the cards in a child's upbringing is a fundamentally false and outdated notion. [editline]27th April 2016[/editline] Especially considering the internet age where a computer screen and a broadband connection is enough to replace both a mother and a father. Have you any idea how much influenced kids are by the internet today? Do you really think that everyone is 100% influenced by their parents when there is an unthinkable amount of information available freely for them to browse? They're like a sponge that soaks up more and more information as they go along. I would gladly argue that for many children today, technology has replaced the need for concepts like parental discipline, guidance, and even education in some cases. Parents can easily become completely obsolete after the child learns how to walk, talk, and use the computer. Or once he learns about friendship. Either way, parental influence is basically irrelevant in today's day and age.[/QUOTE] This is all pretty wrong. I cannot believe you're arguing that the parental sphere of influence is 'irrelevant'. Citing goths and other rebellious cliques is also misguided. I thought it was pretty well understood by now that teenagers rebelling against their parents is not due to outside influences, such as rock and roll, violent videogames or any other moral panics you'd usually be dead against in any other thread, but rather, that the conflict is the natural outcome of coming of age. You're becoming your own person but your parents still see you as their kid. This is entirely about the relationship between parent and child. Technology may be a complicated factor in the modern family, but it isn't a replacement for parents. Far from it in fact, as the technology in most cases will have been provided by a parent, using their electricity, their Internet, and under their roof. I don't know how you grew up, but I severely doubt your dependence and influence from your parents ended the moment you gained access to a computer. Parents have the largest influence over their children in their most formative years of development. It can be hard to deal with sometimes, and that influence isn't always positive, but you can't ignore it.
[QUOTE=Retardation;50211869]Not anymore the second they enroll into any educational establishment starting from elementary school, and are exposed to the world and to people other than their mother, father or siblings. This is why you have goth kids who grew up in almost perfect suburban family environments. A longing for a subculture develops at a very early age. This is why many adolescent children are "rebels" even though their upbringing is almost utopian-level of stable and non-judgmental. Because they are influenced by a plethora of other things outside the very limited and sometimes even completely irrelevant sphere of parental influence. Thinking that parents hold all the cards in a child's upbringing is a fundamentally false and outdated notion. [editline]27th April 2016[/editline] Especially considering the internet age where a computer screen and a broadband connection is enough to replace both a mother and a father. Have you any idea how much influenced kids are by the internet today? Do you really think that everyone is 100% influenced by their parents when there is an unthinkable amount of information available freely for them to browse? They're like a sponge that soaks up more and more information as they go along. I would gladly argue that for many children today, technology has replaced the need for concepts like parental discipline, guidance, and even education in some cases. Parents can easily become completely obsolete after the child learns how to walk, talk, and use the computer. Or once he learns about friendship. Either way, parental influence is basically irrelevant in today's day and age.[/QUOTE] Uh...do you know how wrong you are? Several studies have shown that 2 hours on an electronic device stunts social growth severely for kids. Kids learn most of the social skills from interacting with their parents and then experiment with those learned skills in social setting such as schools. Parent's play a huge fucking role in the raising of a child, but if you want to sit back like many parents do then that's up to the parents. Kids spend more time at home then they do at school.
How do you teach a toddler to behave if you can't spank their rear? Can't really reason with them verbally.
[QUOTE=FunnyStarRunner;50209611]I got spanked as a kid and it always put me in my place. Nothing's wrong with me later on in life.[/QUOTE] You're here. [i]dramatic piano[/i]
spanking only gives rise to fetishes
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50213240]How do you teach a toddler to behave if you can't spank their rear? Can't really reason with them verbally.[/QUOTE] There are endless books on parenting available with just this info in them.!in a nutshell: positive reinforcement will go a long way (rewarding desired behavior), and for when negative reinforcement is needed there are timeouts, loss of privileges, etc
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;50207601]Duh. I remember the kids growing up that were spanked were always the ones in trouble.[/QUOTE] Yes, I have observed the same, as well; the kid in my class who clearly got spanked by his parents the most turned out to be the most rebellious among my classmates when we grew up. He also turned out to be the worst bully. I think that the more you try to pressure someone (not just children), the more they'll want to rebel. That is why, spanking, beating and extreme punishment are among the worst forms of parenting, in my opinion; they are ineffective and usually have the opposite effect.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50213305]There are endless books on parenting available with just this info in them.!in a nutshell: positive reinforcement will go a long way (rewarding desired behavior), and for when negative reinforcement is needed there are timeouts, loss of privileges, etc[/QUOTE] Timeouts? How do you enforce that? Put them in a kid prison? And what privileges? Toddlers don't have any privilege to take away. Not every kid will stand in a corner just because you tell them to. All it does is teaches them that there is no consequence for doing bad but rewards for doing good so there is no real incentive to not do bad. [editline]27th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Reflex F.N.;50213346]Yes, I have observed the same, as well; the kid in my class who clearly got spanked by his parents the most turned out to be the most rebellious among my classmates when we grew up. He also turned out to be the worst bully.[/QUOTE] What if the reason they got spanked most is because they were a shit kid the most?
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50213358]What if the reason they got spanked most is because they were a shit kid the most?[/QUOTE]Well, I knew the guy because he was my classmate and he was a very polite child when we were children, but his parents were too hard on him. By the way, that person was not the only person I know who got spanked and turned out to be rebellious; I knew many others, since spanking and beating are unfortunately very common where I live (I live in Jordan, but spanking seems to be also common in other middle-eastern counties).
[QUOTE=Reflex F.N.;50213377]Well, I knew the guy because he was my classmate and he was a very polite child when we were children, but his parents were too hard on him.[/QUOTE] He turned from a polite child to worst bully? I think the reason for that was not spanking.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50213394]He turned from a polite child to worst bully? I think the reason for that was not spanking.[/QUOTE]Well, I think there were other factors; his parents were very harsh on him and he often got very extreme punishments and his parents often humiliated him in front of his classmates.
[QUOTE=Reflex F.N.;50213417]Well, I think there were other factors; his parents were very harsh on him and he often got very extreme punishments and his parents often humiliated him in front of his classmates.[/QUOTE] That's more like it. Spanking alone will not turn your kid into a criminal. As long as you're overall a good parent and dish the spanking in moderation for stuff that actually warrants it, nothing bad should happen. Of course it's bad if you abuse your children, but most things are bad in excess. There's a difference between spanking and skinning a kid's ass till blood flows. I think it's healthy to teach kids from young age that punishment scales with how bad the behavior is. Having soft punishment for very bad behaviour can actually cause more problems down the line as the person will feel like they won't get punished for some crime or similar actions. From what I've seen bullies are either kids who suffer from abuse or extreme spoiling. Keep the punishment and reward in moderation and you should get something more moderate. Positive reinforcement is good, but you need to show that bad things result in punishment, punishment that actually feels like it, not taking away some imaginary privilege that most kids besides the most spoiled ones won't actually give a shit about.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50213457]That's more like it. Spanking alone will not turn your kid into a criminal. As long as you're overall a good parent and dish the spanking in moderation for stuff that actually warrants it, nothing bad should happen. Of course it's bad if you abuse your children, but most things are bad in excess. There's a difference between spanking and skinning a kid's ass till blood flows. I think it's healthy to teach kids from young age that punishment scales with how bad the behavior is. Having soft punishment for very bad behaviour can actually cause more problems down the line as the person will feel like they won't get punished for some crime or similar actions. From what I've seen bullies are either kids who suffer from abuse or extreme spoiling. Keep the punishment and reward in moderation and you should get something more moderate. Positive reinforcement is good, but you need to show that bad things result in punishment, punishment that actually feels like it, not taking away some imaginary privilege that most kids besides the most spoiled ones won't actually give a shit about.[/QUOTE]Well, can you provide any evidence to back up your claims? We have a study that shows that spanking children has a bad effect and that study has been conducted on 160,000 children during 5 decades. 160,000 is a very good statistical sample for a study, actually it is an amazing sample. This study alone provides good evidence that spanking is bad. Do you have another study that proves otherwise? You can't claim something without providing sufficient evidence for your claim; you can't say "spanking in moderation is good" without providing any evidence. :snip: (I removed this last bit of my post.)
[QUOTE=Reflex F.N.;50213507]You also claimed in an earlier post that you didn't get spanked as a child, so how do you know whether it's good or not?[/QUOTE] There you go. There's no argument to be had here. People who were spanked and say it's good get "you were spanked you don't know shit", people who weren't but say it's good get "you didn't get spanked so you don't know shit". It is pointless to argue.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50213545]There you go. There's no argument to be had here. People who were spanked and say it's good get "you were spanked you don't know shit", people who weren't but say it's good get "you didn't get spanked so you don't know shit". It is pointless to argue.[/QUOTE]Yes, but you neglected the rest of my post about the study. I apologize if that last bit was off, I'll edit my post and remove it. You still haven't provided evidence for your claims.
I was spanked as a child, only once though. And it made me grow the fuck up instantly, I stopped being a BIG little shit and just was a typical little shit. Spanking probably only works on certain children so its probably best to just stop it all-together. No child is going to see hitting as anything motivating these days.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;50213457]That's more like it. Spanking alone will not turn your kid into a criminal. As long as you're overall a good parent and dish the spanking in moderation for stuff that actually warrants it, nothing bad should happen. Of course it's bad if you abuse your children, but most things are bad in excess. There's a difference between spanking and skinning a kid's ass till blood flows. I think it's healthy to teach kids from young age that punishment scales with how bad the behavior is. Having soft punishment for very bad behaviour can actually cause more problems down the line as the person will feel like they won't get punished for some crime or similar actions. From what I've seen bullies are either kids who suffer from abuse or extreme spoiling. Keep the punishment and reward in moderation and you should get something more moderate. Positive reinforcement is good, but you need to show that bad things result in punishment, punishment that actually feels like it, not taking away some imaginary privilege that most kids besides the most spoiled ones won't actually give a shit about.[/QUOTE] I think you can show that punishment scales with behaviour without resorting to physically harming the child. This study shows that spanking has a negative impact. There's also been TV shows like Supernanny where they teach methods of disciplining children without hitting them (it'd be quite a different show otherwise lol). It's reality TV, but I know there was something else recently where they filmed a bunch of kids playing together and had all these psychologists ad experts explain why they were acting like that. It was quite interesting, although I don't remember the name of it. Either way, threat of violence is not necessary if you understand your kid. Most parents are stressed as all hell though, and spanking is an easy method of control, even if it doesn't work in the long run (and some stressed parents will use it as an outlet/misread a situation, leading to frustrated and fearful children).
[QUOTE=FunnyStarRunner;50209611]I got spanked as a kid and it always put me in my place. Nothing's wrong with me later on in life.[/QUOTE] [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456457&p=47441016&viewfull=1#post47441016[/url]
"I was spanked as a kid and I turned out fine. Clearly this means everyone else should be too."
[QUOTE=General J;50215312]"I was spanked as a kid and I turned out fine. Clearly this means everyone else should be too."[/QUOTE] "I got spanked as a child and from my clearly biased perspective i turned out fine!"
[QUOTE=Killuah;50214357][url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456457&p=47441016&viewfull=1#post47441016[/url][/QUOTE] Oh damn.
I was properly spanked maybe twice in my life, and I can say, that for being a spoiled insufferable menacing brat of a child I was back then, I see no other punishment would've helped me understand the severity of my actions. This study says that spanking definitely has bad consequences on child's mental health, but there is no indication about the extent of the severity. For all we know, there are a couple of people who were spanked literally twice or thrice, once maybe, and I highly doubt they had ptsd or other mental traumas for that. IMO, this study just shows that regular or even occasional spankings are where the too much is too much. [editline]28th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Kyle902;50215629]"I got spanked as a child and from my clearly biased perspective i turned out fine!"[/QUOTE] ....biased? what
Literally every single argument ive seen in this thread supporting spanking is based entirely off of the same exact personal anecdote repeated almost verbatim. Its comical almost. In every other thread personal anecdotes are not permissible evidence, why would it be the case here?
There are children who have suffered every kind of abuse possible, aside from abuse that causes serious bodily harm or death, that have turned out completely fine despite it. We still recognize it as abuse and disallow it. It really highlights how much of a problem the cycle of abuse is when every single one of these threads is filled with people defending hitting children because they were hit as children. Perhaps these violent tendencies are a direct result of the abuse they suffered as children
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;50215823]I was properly spanked maybe twice in my life, and I can say, that for being a spoiled insufferable menacing brat of a child I was back then, I see no other punishment would've helped me understand the severity of my actions. [/QUOTE] "My husband has only hit me twice in our marriage, and I can say, that for being such a selfish and useless spouse as I was back then, I can't see how else I would've been helped to understand that." Abuse isn't ok in small quantities, it's just less likely to cause significant or lasting harm.
Is there really any blanket "best" way to raise kids? I grew up with a sibling with Obsessive Defiance Disorder and literally no amount of positive reinforcement or spanking could affect her when she got upset.
[QUOTE=The golden;50217360]The best argument the people who support hitting children usually come up with is "sometimes they just don't listen. But to that I would like to ask this: If that is your justification for the use of physical force then what do you do when your girlfriend doesn't listen? People seem to be under the impression that children are the only people who sometimes will not listen to reason. Fun fact: They're not. But yet if I ask if it is OK to apply this same methodology to say....your girlfriend, would that be OK? No, it wouldn't be, and nobody would ever say yes to that question. So why is it so much different when its your own child in question? If anything, that should make you want to hit them LESS. Sorry but it's just totally fucked and so is the peoples justification for it.[/QUOTE] Because it's only okay to resort to physical violence when you're hitting someone half or less your size that loves and trusts you implicitly. And only when they're being "brats" according whatever arbitrary metric we're supposed to just trust parents that hit their kids are using to deem when and how hard it's appropriate to hit them. Apparently.
One time I remember I was so mad at my parents, that I casually told the school social worker I talked to that my parents "beat me". I was too young to realize that my dad actually just had me bend over and he'd snap the belt in my ear. The woman took what I said at face value and told the school principal, who wanted to get rid of me because I had ADHD, and she sent child protection services to my house despite all my teachers having nothing but positive things to say about my parents. My mother tearfully told me that my actions nearly got myself put in a foster home. I was a handful as a kid.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;50216639]"My husband has only hit me twice in our marriage, and I can say, that for being such a selfish and useless spouse as I was back then, I can't see how else I would've been helped to understand that." Abuse isn't ok in small quantities, it's just less likely to cause significant or lasting harm.[/QUOTE] Abit of a poor analogy there, you can't compare a grown ass woman to a kid who knows nothing about the consequences of his actions.
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