• Study: Disciplinary spanking increases childhood defiance and mental health issues
    137 replies, posted
physical discipline is awful... It fucks a person up for years
Let's be clear here: 1) We can't look at the actual study in question, therefore making it impossible to take at face value. This applies to any study, no matter what. 2) Even if the conclusions is 100% legitimate, it isn't saying that individual uses of spanking are bad for children. It's saying that spanking, generally across society, isn't generally good for children. This study gives absolutely no credence to the claim that spanking can never be used in a good way with good results.
[QUOTE=Thy Reaper;50216639]"My husband has only hit me twice in our marriage, and I can say, that for being such a selfish and useless spouse as I was back then, I can't see how else I would've been helped to understand that." [/QUOTE] Well, if you prefer marrying 6-10 year old girls(/boys?), then I'm not sure whether to feel sorry or disgusted by you. [editline]29th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;50222379]Let's be clear here: 1) We can't look at the actual study in question, therefore making it impossible to take at face value. This applies to any study, no matter what. 2) Even if the conclusions is 100% legitimate, it isn't saying that individual uses of spanking are bad for children. It's saying that spanking, generally across society, isn't generally good for children. This study gives absolutely no credence to the claim that spanking can never be used in a good way with good results.[/QUOTE] Basically, this. [editline]29th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=The golden;50217360]The best argument the people who support hitting children usually come up with is "sometimes they just don't listen. But to that I would like to ask this: If that is your justification for the use of physical force then what do you do when your girlfriend doesn't listen?[/QUOTE] Again, poor analogy. Girlfriends (at least the one I date, its your problem if you find someone who cannot listen to you proper) at least have mental capacity to understand arguments and reasoning, little children who barely went to elementary school do not.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;50225265]Well, if you prefer marrying 6-10 year old girls(/boys?), then I'm not sure whether to feel sorry or disgusted by you.[/quote] He was comparing physical discipline to domestic abuse, because there is honestly not a lot of difference between the two. Your argument that younger people with less developed brains are a-okay to hit is what's disgusting here. [quote] Again, poor analogy. Girlfriends (at least the one I date, its your problem if you find someone who cannot listen to you proper) at least have mental capacity to understand arguments and reasoning, little children who barely went to elementary school do not.[/QUOTE] If your child lacks the mental capacity to understand arguments and reasoning, why the hell do you think that they're going to understand why you're hitting them? Are they not more likely to learn to fear you? Or even rebel against you? Or pretty much just do whatever is easiest to avoid being hit, such as covering up their actions and behaviour and lying about things? You know who else lacks comprehension? People with learning disabilities. Somehow I doubt you'd agree that it's necessary to beat them until they do as you say.
If you can't figure out how to discipline your kids without hitting them then you should not be a parent.
I got spanked once as a kid, turned out fine despite not really learning anything from it. What really set me fucking straight when I acted like a little shit was when my dad would take everything I used for entertainment, be it TV, game console, or any electronic whatsoever and left me with just a bed, desk and clothes drawer. I learned from my fuck ups real fast. If you want to discipline a child then take away everything you've ever given to them rather then resort to physical means.
Well, that explains a fair bit for how I turned out. Even though it only went as far as slaps on the wrist from Mum, she came out one evening a couple of months back and told me she regretted doing it. 'bout a decade or so too late, but at least that's the worst she was capable of. After all, there are far worse things in this universe than a slap on the wrist. Though the fear of being slapped can still be scarring.
You wouldn't beat your girlfriend if she didn't listen, you wouldn't beat a mentally disabled/autistic/ brain damaged adult because they wouldn't listen, you wouldn't smack a baby because he was crying, you wouldn't smack a senile woman because she wasn't listening to you or doing what you wanted, you wouldn't smack someone else's kid, but why would you smack your own child? Because you're lazy. That's it. You don't have the time, patience, or knowledge of how to properly discipline a child. Unless your kid is a psychopath with no understanding of empathy or logic you can still reason with them and since you are the provider of their video games, internet, phone and TV time thus you have control over them. Time outs are effective when used. Withholding desert, explaining why something they did is bad and referring to the easy to understand golden rule (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you), removing allowance, not buying their favorite foods, not taking them to Six Flags, not letting them do a sleepover at their friend's house, there's tons of ways to make a child think "hey maybe I shouldn't act like a little shit cause I'm losing out on stuff if I do, and maybe I shouldn't hurt others because it sucks to get hurt and it's gonna bite me in the ass eventually" but if you don't have time to put in effort it's so much easier to physically abuse someone smaller, weaker, and less intelligent than you to put fear and aggression into them for a temporary relief of them not doing something.
As far as I know in the South spanking are common but the way you guys describe them as if they beat the fuck out their kids for no reason. Most spankings I got and as well many others I know were usually belts,switches,wooden spoons to the ass. Things I got spankings for made me not do them ever again, so go figure.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;50229364]As far as I know in the South spanking are common but the way you guys describe them [B]as if they beat the fuck out their kids for no reason.[/B] Most spankings I got and as well many others I know were usually [B]belts,switches,wooden spoons to the ass.[/B] Things I got spankings for made me not do them ever again, so go figure.[/QUOTE] In civilized regions of the US, we don't beat our children with implements.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;50229394]In civilized regions of the US, we don't beat our children with implements.[/QUOTE] Instead, parents yell and scream while giving in to their child's every demand. Much more civilized.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50231255]Instead, parents yell and scream while giving in to their child's every demand. Much more civilized.[/QUOTE] Not hitting your children doesn't equate to "yelling and screaming and giving in to [your] child's every demand." For somebody who's so adamant on questioning the intellectual honesty of this study, you're quick to make false equivolencies. Are you so set on the merits of doling out physical pain as punishment that you just can't fathom how it's possible to be a good parent without it?
[QUOTE=sgman91;50222379]Let's be clear here: 1) We can't look at the actual study in question, therefore making it impossible to take at face value. This applies to any study, no matter what. 2) Even if the conclusions is 100% legitimate, it isn't saying that individual uses of spanking are bad for children. It's saying that spanking, generally across society, isn't generally good for children. This study gives absolutely no credence to the claim that spanking can never be used in a good way with good results.[/QUOTE] Why do you assume that spanking can be used to good results, especially when we see that it doesn't generalized over society? Is your spanking judgement simply better than others or what?
[QUOTE=sgman91;50231255]Instead, parents yell and scream while giving in to their child's every demand. Much more civilized.[/QUOTE] If you think that beating your child with objects is a good way to discipline them, please never become a parent.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50231418]Not hitting your children doesn't equate to "yelling and screaming and giving in to [your] child's every demand." For somebody who's so adamant on questioning the intellectual honesty of this study, you're quick to make false equivolencies. Are you so set on the merits of doling out physical pain as punishment that you just can't fathom how it's possible to be a good parent without it?[/QUOTE] I was simply pointing the idiocy of saying that a region in which parents don't use spanking is more civilized than one that does when there's no reason to believe that it does any better actually raising children. There are so many incredibly damaging and common things that parents do to their children that the focus on spanking is nothing more than a joke. It's used as a way to push an ideology, not actually improve children's lives. You look at any family that abuses spanking the the point of causing harm and I promise you'll fine plenty of other, far worse, actions done to those children. I also won't respond to questions based on an ad hominem. Funny that you accuse me of fallacious thinking and then do the same in your response. [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50231573]Why do you assume that spanking can be used to good results, especially when we see that it doesn't generalized over society? Is your spanking judgement simply better than others or what?[/QUOTE] Why? The single biggest reason is because the vast majority of people who experienced it also support it's use. It's not my judgement that's better. It's the judgment of an incredibly massive number of people who have directly experienced both ends of spanking who know better. It's no longer an anecdote when the majority of people believe it (across literally thousands of years). I've also personally seen it used to good result when used correctly and sparingly. [editline]30th April 2016[/editline] Also, again, we don't have any idea if this study shows a causation between spanking and these bad outcomes. All we know from the abstract is that it shows correlation. EVEN if it does a rediculously good regression analysis with every possible other variable the strongest possible conclusion is that spanking is used ineffectively on average across society. It says literally nothing about individual uses.
I only condone corporal punishment for life threatening things. Trying to stick a fork in a light socket? Get spanked. Drawing on the wall? Stern talking to. Just my opinion, anyway, because thats how I was raised.
When I was a little kid, I think, it was either 3 or 4 years old, me and my parents were standing at the pedestrian stop light and waiting until it goes green. Since I was a very nasty brat, my parents still held me at my hands, and kept telling me "Raven, don't go. Wait until the red light switches to green" several times. At the end, I still decided to go for it, coincidentally, right under a car. My dad, when recollecting, said that when he snatched me as hard as he could and pulled me out, he heard that my feet/boots slashed on the car a little bit. I got spanked right after that happened and it taught me a good lesson not to fuck with the stoplights while I was still a little kid. And I can say that, giving all circumstances, it was perfectly justified. I just legit wonder what kind of approach would you guys take if you hate the notion of "muh physical abuse on kids" so much
I consider running a redlight a life threatning and justifiable excuse to being spanked
Why do people always defend their parents hitting/attacking them? There has to be a name for that effect, looking back on hardship that one endured in the past in a positive light. This is extremely obvious whenever Latino people laugh about how their parents beat them with "chanclas", which are wooden clogs.
shit, i'm late for the pointless arguments. It's spanking this time, neat. i guess i'll be pro-thing this time, they look like they're losing. lemme see my checklist... (as a bonus, this is also a chart of the life cycle of this type of thread.) 1, actual anecdotes: i got spanked as a child and i think the extreme anxiety of knowing what was coming and the shame of disappointing my parents that much were the main parts of the punishment for me, and it was reasonably effective when nothing else worked. i definitely deserved it and would do it too if i was my dad, but i never plan to have kids because they're annoying, so interpret that however negatively you feel like. 2, ironic anecdotes: i got spanked as a child once and it convinced me to drop out of school and beat up my girlfriend. i was, like, 8 or somethin. 3, repeating the same points repeatedly (credit to highvoltage): there is a serious difference between a spanking as punishment given by a good parent as punishment for doing something you knew was unacceptable, and a beatdown given by a questionably good parent for whatever reason they had. 4, repetition, distortion, and invention of opponents' points: the kid that was always getting in trouble was always getting spanked, so it must have been the spanking that did it. also this anecdote is allowed and not yours because my parents must have loved me more than your parents loved you because my parents never spanked me. also, according to The Golden in post #64, people who disagree with me are obviously brain damaged. this is the only possible explanation. [my personal crusade against the above: in post #61, Disseminate stated: "If you dismiss this via 'oh but correlation causation' you're also wrong - are you actually suggesting the kids' future mental illness and aggression caused them to be beaten in the past?" Dis, do you know what the "oh but correlation causation" argument you immediately dismiss even [I]is[/I]? Are you actually suggesting that the only two possibilities are that spanking causes mental illness or that mental illness retroactively causes spanking? That a third factor couldn't be responsible for both?] 5, witty rebuttals that don't actually address the other person's point: see Starlight 456 in post #105 for the example. (repeat the above numbered stages randomly, for a random amount of time.) 6, arguments give way to unadorned insults: the only reason your parents never spanked you was because they never cared enough about you to bother disciplining you. 7, the beginning of the end: According to what I predict somebody could possibly say in what might be post #117, "the nazis spanked their kids all the time. just sayin". Godwin's Law has been invoked. Stage 6 repeats rapidly until a moderator mercy kills the thread. let's see if it can go down before page four.
my favorite part of this discussion is the fact that the use of anecdotal evidence was addressed in post 2 yet people are still posting anecdotes about how they were beat as kids and turned out fine like they mean anything
[QUOTE=JXZ;50235073]shit, i'm late for the pointless arguments. It's spanking this time, neat. i guess i'll be pro-thing this time, they look like they're losing. lemme see my checklist... (as a bonus, this is also a chart of the life cycle of this type of thread.) 1, actual anecdotes: i got spanked as a child and i think the extreme anxiety of knowing what was coming and the shame of disappointing my parents that much were the main parts of the punishment for me, and it was reasonably effective when nothing else worked. i definitely deserved it and would do it too if i was my dad, but i never plan to have kids because they're annoying, so interpret that however negatively you feel like. 2, ironic anecdotes: i got spanked as a child once and it convinced me to drop out of school and beat up my girlfriend. i was, like, 8 or somethin. 3, repeating the same points repeatedly (credit to highvoltage): there is a serious difference between a spanking as punishment given by a good parent as punishment for doing something you knew was unacceptable, and a beatdown given by a questionably good parent for whatever reason they had. 4, repetition, distortion, and invention of opponents' points: the kid that was always getting in trouble was always getting spanked, so it must have been the spanking that did it. also this anecdote is allowed and not yours because my parents must have loved me more than your parents loved you because my parents never spanked me. also, according to The Golden in post #64, people who disagree with me are obviously brain damaged. this is the only possible explanation. [my personal crusade against the above: in post #61, Disseminate stated: "If you dismiss this via 'oh but correlation causation' you're also wrong - are you actually suggesting the kids' future mental illness and aggression caused them to be beaten in the past?" Dis, do you know what the "oh but correlation causation" argument you immediately dismiss even [I]is[/I]? Are you actually suggesting that the only two possibilities are that spanking causes mental illness or that mental illness retroactively causes spanking? That a third factor couldn't be responsible for both?] 5, witty rebuttals that don't actually address the other person's point: see Starlight 456 in post #105 for the example. (repeat the above numbered stages randomly, for a random amount of time.) 6, arguments give way to unadorned insults: the only reason your parents never spanked you was because they never cared enough about you to bother disciplining you. 7, the beginning of the end: According to what I predict somebody could possibly say in what might be post #117, "the nazis spanked their kids all the time. just sayin". Godwin's Law has been invoked. Stage 6 repeats rapidly until a moderator mercy kills the thread. let's see if it can go down before page four.[/QUOTE] So from what you have posted, I assume you think that spanking is bad? Considering none of your points have been for it. Also none of your points have been reflective of actual scientific studies regarding spanking and physical punishment so I am not sure what your point is?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50235110]So from what you have posted, I assume you think that spanking is bad? Considering none of your points have been for it. Also none of your points have been reflective of actual scientific studies regarding spanking and physical punishment so I am not sure what your point is?[/QUOTE] you were supposed to say, "the nazis spanked their kids all the time. just sayin".
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;50235108]my favorite part of this discussion is the fact that the use of anecdotal evidence was addressed in post 2 yet people are still posting anecdotes about how they were beat as kids and turned out fine like they mean anything[/QUOTE] Funny, I've seen more from people saying they were spanked and it mentally scarred them.
[QUOTE=JXZ;50235159]you were supposed to say, "the nazis spanked their kids all the time. just sayin".[/QUOTE] I don't encourage violent physical punishment. In fact I condemn it; I am just questioning your contribution to the discussion.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;50235226]I don't encourage violent physical punishment. In fact I condemn it; I am just questioning your contribution to the discussion.[/QUOTE] I think you misread my post, since it's really obviously pro-physical punishment. well we've made it to page four without getting the thread locked. good job, i guess.
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;50235108]my favorite part of this discussion is the fact that the use of anecdotal evidence was addressed in post 2 yet people are still posting anecdotes about how they were beat as kids and turned out fine like they mean anything[/QUOTE] You mean post #3. Also, anecdotes are actually useful as interview research material. They're not irrelevant, regardless of how fervently the antis and their side might try and dismiss them as being such because of how they do in fact counter their claims. The problem with spanking studies since the beginning, including this one, is that they're always big on emphasizing emotions and not on sticking to science. This is exactly what I was talking about earlier with the politicization of science that we often see, and which we again see here. Take for example one of the largest corporal punishment studies done here in the United States in the early-2000s that people used to cite in these debates; [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12081081]Columbia University analyzed 88 other studies together[/url], claimed that it made kids more anti-social and mentally scarred them, but they did not bother to make the clarification on beating children in their analysis and included results from kids who were hit (not spanked) so hard that they were left with bruises, cuts, and had actually been (under the very definition) physically abused-- which is not what spanking is, despite attempts to link them and to create connotations between the two. It doesn't break kids. It doesn't ruin them. Not only do the number of anecdotes prove this, but there have been plenty of studies conducted as well which say the exact same thing. You don't hear about them of course because they're going against the common trend. There is a massive distinction between spanking your child and between hitting them, and there are distinctions between the ages at which children are spanked as well because of, you know, basic cognitive development. Also, everybody saying "reason with them" clearly has no experience whatsoever at dealing with kids. This [i]might[/i] work with some of them, but it won't work on all of them, and it absolutely will not work on the majority of toddlers-- who are simply not able to understand reason and discussion to begin with ([url=http://humansciences.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/nztabconts.47.pdf]something which has been proven, to use someone else's words, by years of research[/url], backed by everyone from the American Academy of Pediatrics to the Society for Research in Child Development). This whole thing is so fucking tedious because of how the anti side refuses to capitulate, and it's disgusting because of the amount of political influence that's clearly at play here but which is tolerated and openly peddled anyway. [editline]1st May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=JXZ;50235159]you were supposed to say, "the nazis spanked their kids all the time. just sayin".[/QUOTE] One thing I would like to point out about this, because it's actually very relevant when you put it that way, is that there was a common theme of abuse among Nazi leadership. Hitler suffered it, Goebbels may or may not have (I can't remember anymore for him), etc. The point is there were a number of them who had extraordinarily austere and strained relationships with their fathers. Sometimes, that was the case with both parents. But to claim that they were "spanked", as I've seen people do across the Internet before, is bullshit. Hitler for example was not spanked; his father [i]beat[/i] him unmercifully, so badly one time that Hitler actually went into a coma and almost died. His older half-brother, Alois Jr., actually ran away from home because he too was beaten unmercifully by their father. Also, to claim that that's the only reason why they turned out as they did is a gross oversimplification of the development of human personality characteristics. Goebbels, for example, may have had an austere family life which certainly influenced his temperament, but it was more influenced by the issues he had with his leg/clubfoot that basically made him a social outcast from the time he was a young child and also caused him to be disqualified from military service during the First World War-- a fact which he openly expressed made him feel ashamed throughout his life. And that's only discussing the nurture (environmental) influences on personality development, not the nature (genetic) ones which have a far greater impact on shaping a person's temperament according to what evidence has been accumulated from twin studies (both identical and non-identical); some people are just born fucked up, or they have a significantly greater natural predisposition to be fucked up compared to your average individual.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50235212]Funny, I've seen more from people saying they were spanked and it mentally scarred them.[/QUOTE] i think people arguing that angle also have the added benefit of the study that this entire thread was based on being in their favor
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;50235343]i think people arguing that angle also have the added benefit of the study that this entire thread was based on being in their favor[/QUOTE] The study is absolutely irrelevant to individual anecdotes. Nothing about it helps the claim that individual cases of spanking will be negative.
[QUOTE=JXZ;50235259]I think you misread my post, since it's really obviously pro-physical punishment. well we've made it to page four without getting the thread locked. good job, i guess.[/QUOTE] I suppose I totally did misread it because it sounded like you were making fun of the arguments in this thread that have been put forth supporting physical punishment.
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