Former Cheerleader put on Probation for Fellating 12 year old boy.
247 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871766]Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?[/QUOTE]
[T]http://www.nambla.org/NAMBLA_LOGO.jpg[/T]
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;42871750]Really? The onset of arguably the most troubling and confusing time for a youngster?[/QUOTE]
Exactly why they need help and guidance, they should be allowed to explore and experiment. In the current system any sex beneath x age is banned, which is good for no one, especially not adolescents.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;42871697]So that's makes it all fine and dandy, right?[/QUOTE]No, and I don't think he meant that. Look at it this way, say a twelve-year-old initiated sex with an adult, and presented themselves as somebody much older. Would you, or anyone else, consider that statutory rape? I wouldn't, because the adult didn't take advantage of the twelve-year-old in any way. Yeah, that situation is [i]fucked up[/i] but criminal prosecution for the adult involved wouldn't be morally right.
I'm not saying that applies to this situation, but I am saying that something like "age of consent" probably has quite a few exceptions to it every once in awhile.[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871773]Exactly why they need help and guidance, they should be allowed to explore and experiment. In the current system any sex beneath x age is banned, which is good for no one, especially not adolescents.[/QUOTE]On the other hand, removing the age of consent is a bad, bad, bad fucking idea for so many reasons. If you can't think of any, you're not trying.
[QUOTE=Explosions;42871481]"Former Football Player put on Probation for [B]Fellating 12 year old girl.[/B]"
There would be no discussion whatsoever. Instant, universal condemnation.[/QUOTE]
...I saw too much futanari manga in my lifetime.
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;42871753]Especially those in which one of the people are so young that their brains literally have not solidified into what it will be when they mature.
It is arbitrarily pretty unethical for a grown adult to derive sexual pleasure based on the inexperience and acquiescence of someone so far below their age, because the odds are that the younger party's decisions will be largely be influenced (and thus manipulatable) by the information being given to them by the adult.[/QUOTE]
The brain doesn't fully develop until the late 20s anyway, so this is irrelevant. and all you said could definitely also apply to a 16-20 year old.
-snip-
[QUOTE=Cone;42871757]just increasing the amount of sex education wouldn't properly prepare them for sex, they can still be exploited or messed with without them knowing. and if they aren't even necessarily prepared for sex, i fail to see how willingness is in any way a measurement of their sexual readiness. so i repeat: sexual readiness is unquantifiable.[/QUOTE]
In that case it's unquantifiable at any age. If you're willing, pubescent and have all the necessary information I don't see the logic in that not being enough to consent.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871653]That's also true of 12 year olds.[/QUOTE]
Completely false
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;42871772][T]http://www.nambla.org/NAMBLA_LOGO.jpg[/T][/QUOTE]
They're a dead organisation, and they advocated Greek love which is competently opposed to any form of exploitation. I'm not saying that all relationship with an age gap are always good only that they aren't always bad and should be judged on a case by case basis.
[editline]15th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Explosions;42871805]Completely false[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/puberty/Pages/introduction.aspx[/url]
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871441]why cant they consent ... Informed consent is just a ridiculous concept that collapses under the slightest scrutiny. any information that's required can be given[/QUOTE]
Sure, the information can be given, but that says nothing about having the maturity to actually be able to make decisions. Twelve-year-olds aren't generally known for their ability to make rational choices, regardless of how much information that they have about the consequences. Now, when you ask;
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871441]why do you believe that 16 rather than 12 is the right magic number? At neither age is a person fully mental, emotionally or physically mature.[/QUOTE]
You're presenting a false equivalency. Neither may be "fully ... mature" but one has (generally) completed puberty (per [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty[/url] 's age ranges) and has also had 4 more years of life experience to guide them and inform their decisions, whereas the other has probably barely started puberty and is probably pretty new to this whole "sex" thing. Like others in the thread have said, it is kinda weird to have to draw a line, but the law has to draw this line somewhere, and 16-18 is a reasonable line.
Now regarding that "Ad Hominem". When you "ask questions" like this (and I put ask questions in quotation marks because you are obviously doing it to lead someone to a conclusion, not because you're genuinely curious):
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871441]I mean adolescents have sex with each other all the time anyway why allow this but disallow the from doing the exact same thing with someone older. If they want to do it what's the harm?[/QUOTE]
You are defending adults having sex with children. The reason two adolescents can engage in sexual activity but an adult and a child can't is because the adult has so much more life experience than the child and can thus manipulate the child. No such difference exists between the adolescents, who are generally on the same level of maturity.What you are doing here is defending child abuse. You might need to ask "What damage could consensual sexual activity possibly cause?" but in asking that you are both ignorant of the true meaning of consent and willfully ignorant of the horrors of child abuse.
[B]
People aren't calling you a paedophile apologist because they want to win the argument, they're calling you a paedophile apologist because you are one.[/B]
If it was a 12 year old girl and 20 some old man nobody would be arguing that sexual relations with 12 year olds is alright. Its not right for either gender.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871802]In that case it's unquantifiable at any age. If you're willing, pubescent and have all the necessary information I don't see the logic in that not being enough to consent.[/QUOTE]
even if some kids are abnormally fast with sexuality, others may be abnormally slow with it. so, you draw the line at the point where even the slow ones will be ready. and already that works far better than examining everyone in the country.
It's rape, why isn't she being charged with it?
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871789]The brain doesn't fully develop until the late 20s anyway, so this is irrelevant. and all you said could definitely also apply to a 16-20 year old.[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between not being 'fully developed' and literally [U]BEGINNING TO DEVELOP AND ONLY JUST BECOMING AWARE OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS[/U].
You are refusing to acknowledge that, and it shows.
It just doesn't make sense, and you still haven't made any substantial arguments to support what you are saying other than repeating that there are flaws in the current system, so the best way to fix them would be to practically get rid of the laws, excepting what can be called children who are arbitrarily protected, despite there being little actual difference between an 11 and 12 year old's psychology - unlike the substantial difference between the psychology of a 12 year old and a 16 year old.
[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;42871822]Sure, the information can be given, but that says nothing about having the maturity to actually be able to make decisions. Twelve-year-olds aren't generally known for their ability to make rational choices, regardless of how much information that they have about the consequences. Now, when you ask;
You're presenting a false equivalency. Neither may be "fully ... mature" but one has (generally) completed puberty (per [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty[/url] 's age ranges) and has also had 4 more years of life experience to guide them and inform their decisions, whereas the other has probably barely started puberty and is probably pretty new to this whole "sex" thing. Like others in the thread have said, it is kinda weird to have to draw a line, but the law has to draw this line somewhere, and 16-18 is a reasonable line.
Now regarding that "Ad Hominem". When you "ask questions" like this (and I put ask questions in quotation marks because you are obviously doing it to lead someone to a conclusion, not because you're genuinely curious):
You are defending adults having sex with children. The reason two adolescents can engage in sexual activity but an adult and a child can't is because the adult has so much more life experience than the child and can thus manipulate the child. No such difference exists between the adolescents, who are generally on the same level of maturity.What you are doing here is defending child abuse. You might need to ask "What damage could consensual sexual activity possibly cause?" but in asking that you are both ignorant of the true meaning of consent and willfully ignorant of the horrors of child abuse.
[B]
People aren't calling you a paedophile apologist because they want to win the argument, they're calling you a paedophile apologist because you are one.[/B][/QUOTE]
Love is never a rational choice regardless of age.
I am not defending adults having sex with children, I am defending the rights of adolescents to be able to chose who they should have sex with, if anyone. Children have nothing to do with it. This is about hebephilia and ephebphilia and not pedophilia.
This is what I wrote in the mass debates forum on power imbalance in relationship;
"It is sometimes said that;
“Any relationship involving an adult and someone under {insert your local age of consent here} is inherently exploitative.”
The point is sometimes made that any relationship involving a teenager and an adult is exploitative due to the power imbalance inherit in the relationship. It is true that there is a potential for exploitation, however in reality there is potential for exploitation in almost every relationship. Relationships in which one partner is significantly more intelligent or educated than the other; relationships in which one partner earns much more money than the other, relationships in which one partner has a much higher social standing than the other, relationships in which one partner is significantly physically stronger than the other, relationships in which one partner is much more attractive than the other etc. all have the potential to be exploitative, so why is it that such relationships are considered acceptable when relationships with a significant age difference (with one partner being below the local age of consent) are illegal and sometimes considered the most evil thing a person can do.
So rather than punishing people for being involved in potentially exploitative relationships why not just punish them when actual exploitation takes place?"
"We all agree that 13 is about where you enter puberty, and that you aren't mature at that age. We can also agree that 18 year olds aren't fully mature yet. You don't fully mature until your early-mid twenties.
so fuck it let's allow people to fuck 'em right out the gate"
Sure, 18 year olds aren't fully mature either, but if you can't understand that a person's maturity raises over time, so that an 18 year old, while not fully mature, would still be much more mature than a 13 year old, then I don't really know what to say.
Yes, there are cases where a 16 year old would be more mature than an 18 year old. However, when making a law, you have to take [I]averages[/I] into account. You can't go "The age of consent is x for Bill, Sam, Fred, Amanda, y for Diane, Max, Kate, Nathan, z for ..." in a law. You want to take individuality into account, yes, [B]but we already do that during the court cases[/B]. Set a baseline value that would be the best, and then deal with the individual deviations [I]once you get to the part where you deal with the individuals[/I].
18 (or 16) aren't fully mature, but for the sake of efficiency, we want to be concerned with them being mature [I]enough[/I].
I remember a thread a few years back where one guy was saying that he was friends with one girl who was being raped and blackmailed. Eventually I thought he was actually making the thread up for attention when I noted some inconsistencies, such as the girl being 14 yet being in college. However, I do remember that the main rapist's name in that thread was 'Aiden'.
coincidence
i think not
[sp]by the way, if you don't realize I'm kidding, then, well, I feel bad for you[/sp]
But in all seriousness: 13 year olds can barely handle Calculus, what makes you think they're able to handle their teachers' cocks?
[QUOTE=Explosions;42871481]"Former Football Player put on Probation for Fellating 12 year old girl."
There would be no discussion whatsoever. Instant, universal condemnation.[/QUOTE]
Personally I don't think we should discriminate against girls with dicks.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871850]This is about hebephilia and ephebphilia and not pedophilia.[/QUOTE]
Could you quit hiding behind "m-muh hebephilia! it's different!" and realize that we're talking about young people who aren't ready to consent yet and not any specific age group?
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;42871847]There is a difference between not being 'fully developed' and literally [U]BEGINNING TO DEVELOP AND ONLY JUST BECOMING AWARE OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS[/U].
You are refusing to acknowledge that, and it shows.
It just doesn't make sense, and you still haven't made any substantial arguments to support what you are saying other than repeating that there are flaws in the current system, so the best way to fix them would be to practically get rid of the laws, excepting what can be called children who are arbitrarily protected, despite there being little actual difference between an 11 and 12 year old's psychology - unlike the substantial difference between the psychology of a 12 year old and a 16 year old.[/QUOTE]
There's a substantial difference between some 16 year olds and other 16 year olds. anyone can be exploited regardless of age, this is true of a 12 year old just as much as a 20 year old. I condemn exploitation in all it's forms, all I;m pointing out s that it doesn't have to occur in relationship with a large age gap, it has the potential to but this is true of all relationships.
I don't think people need to be protected from consensual sexual activity.
"difference between an 11 and 12 year old's psychology - unlike the substantial difference between the psychology of a 12 year old and a 16 year old."
There's a substantial difference between everyone's psychology, if all you wanted to do was exploit someone you could far more easily exploit an adult.
[editline]15th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;42871891]Could you quit hiding behind "m-muh hebephilia! it's different!" and realize that we're talking about young people who aren't ready to consent yet and not any specific age group?[/QUOTE]
I think some 18 year olds probably aren't ready to consent but I think some are, the ones that are should be allowed to do so.
[editline]15th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Last or First;42871853]
But in all seriousness: 13 year olds can barely handle Calculus, what makes you think they're able to handle their teachers' cocks?[/QUOTE]
I think calculus is a lot more complicated than sex anyway, and if i met an adult who didn't underrated calculus I'd still think they should be allowed to engage in consensual sexual activity.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871900]There's a substantial difference between some 16 year olds and other 16 year olds. anyone can be exploited regardless of age, this is true of a 12 year old just as much as a 20 year old. I condemn exploitation in all it's forms, all I;m pointing out s that it doesn't have to occur in relationship with a large age gap, it has the potential to but this is true of all relationships.
I don't think people need to be protected from consensual sexual activity.
"difference between an 11 and 12 year old's psychology - unlike the substantial difference between the psychology of a 12 year old and a 16 year old."
There's a substantial difference between everyone's psychology, if all you wanted to do was exploit someone you could far more easily exploit an adult.
[editline]15th November 2013[/editline]
I think some 18 year olds probably aren't ready to consent but I think some are, the ones that are should be allowed to do so.[/QUOTE]
You are arguing for a legal system so convoluted that I don't even think you know what it would end up like.
Go study (or at least read the fucking wikipedia articles) for developmental psychology, age of consent laws, their enforcement, and the impact of sex on minors and come back when you can actually form a cogent argument other than to repeatedly state that since everyone can be exploited, everyone should be allowed the opportunity to be exploited.
And saying that it would be easier to sexually exploit an adult than a child is just asinine.
At least, write out a law to explain what you are suggesting so we can actually argue against it. Right now you are using a variant of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, where all of our valid points are arbitrarily disqualified and applied to an 'outgroup' that only you seemingly perceive (since you are an [I]ephebophile [/I] and not a dirty pedophile in your mind), which prevents the negative judgment from falling on you for what you are suggesting, via arguments that you seem to be content with showing over and over again.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871850]I am not defending adults having sex with children, I am defending the rights of adolescents to be able to chose who they should have sex with, if anyone.[/QUOTE]
So you're not defending adults having sex with children, you're defending children having sex with adults.
...Did you even think about what you wrote before hitting the submit button? At all?
Oh my god you fucking pedophiles.
what the actual fucking fuck fuck.
Oh my god I'm surrounded by kiddy diddlers.
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;42871960]You are arguing for a legal system so convoluted that I don't even think you know what it would end up like.
Go study (or at least read the fucking wikipedia articles) for developmental psychology, age of consent laws, their enforcement, and the impact of sex on minors and come back when you can actually form a cogent argument other than to repeatedly state that since everyone can be exploited, everyone should be allowed the opportunity to be exploited.
And saying that it would be easier to sexually exploit an adult than a child is just asinine.
At least, write out a law so we can actually argue against it. Right now you are using a variant of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, where all of our valid points are arbitrarily disqualified and applied to an 'outgroup' that only you seemingly perceive, which prevents the negative judgment from falling on you for what you are suggesting, via arguments that you seem to be content with showing over and over again.[/QUOTE]
My views are inline with current psychological thinking, I suggest you look up Rind's famous study on the subject, from which I draw much.
The system I'm proposing is almost identical to the current one, the only difference is an improved sexual education system and a slightly lower age of consent. You're putting words in my mouth and making this far more complicated than it needs to be. For the record the laws I would propose are the current laws of Spain, where the age of consent is 13 plus an improved sex education system.
[editline]15th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=CapellanCitizen;42871985]So you're not defending adults having sex with children, you're defending children having sex with adults.
...Did you even think about what you wrote before hitting the submit button? At all?[/QUOTE]
I'm defensing adolescents having consensual sex with adults or other adolescents. I've made it clear multiple times in this thread, children have nothing to do with this.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871850]I am not defending adults having sex with children, I am defending the rights of adolescents to be able to chose who they should have sex with, if anyone. Children have nothing to do with it. This is about hebephilia and ephebphilia and not pedophilia.[/QUOTE]
Wow, did you really just jump the shark?
It is wrong either way, the Age Gap is Ridiculous!
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;42871997]My views are inline with current psychological thinking, I suggest you look up Rind's famous study on the subject, from which I draw much.
The system I'm propping is almost identical to the current one, the only difference is an improved sexual education system and a slightly lower age of consent. You're putting words in my mouth and making this far more complicated than it needs to be. For the record the laws I would propose are the current laws of Spain, where the age of consent is 13.[/QUOTE]
I'm not putting words in your mouth - I'm being forced to infer them because you absolutely suck at explaining yourself, and decided to enter a news thread where an adult forcibly had a sexual encounter with a minor for the sole purpose of advocating minors' rights to have sex.
[QUOTE=KennyAwsum;42872029]Wow, did you really just jump the shark?
It is wrong either way, the Age Gap is Ridiculous![/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if this is a serious post or not but if it is, why is it ridiculous?
if it was a girl all of you guys would be asking for the death sentence/head on a pike type shit
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;42872032]I'm not putting words in your mouth - I'm being forced to infer them because you absolutely suck at explaining yourself, and decided to enter a news thread where an adult forcibly had a sexual encounter with a minor for the sole purpose of advocating minors' rights to have sex.[/QUOTE]
This has hardly been the best circumstances for a debate I admit that, I've had to fight on a number of fronts simultaneously and as such I haven't always been entirely clear in my point and i may have repeated myself. I agree this isn't the best place for this debate, I made a thread in the mass debates from on this very subject, if you post there, I'd be glad to continue it in the more appropriate setting.
I'm going to stop posting in this thread now, if anyone wants to continue this debate, again there is a thread in the mass debates forum.
[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;42872041]if it was a girl all of you guys would be asking for the death sentence/head on a pike type shit[/QUOTE]
This is a problem with society in general.
Especially in these cases, it favors women tremendously, while treating all men as dirty perverts who want sex 24/7.
Its sickening.
Well I'm jealous.
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