• Oklahoma Court orders the removal of Ten Commandments monument
    47 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Llamalord;48090835]I found the actual replica they are selling on their website for funding: [url]http://shopsatan.com/collections/frontpage/products/bust-of-baphomet-miniature-replica[/url] [img]http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0428/0465/products/BaphoSmallFront_1024x1024.jpg?v=1420784179[/img][/QUOTE] I want it in hollow copper form. Imagine how fucking rad it would look after it got a patina.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48091335]Yes, the founding fathers wanted a Christian nation sooo desperately that they did everything they could to prevent us from ever having one, good job.[/QUOTE] I think it's pretty clear that I never said they wanted a Christian nation. You Might want to try reading and comprehending what you've read before mocking it. [editline]30th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48091720]I think it's pretty clear, by the words used, by the laws it establishes, that it is not in fact christian values it cares about, just values that used christian values as a foundation. It's sad, to me, that the core tenants of humanity have been long claimed by christianity and catholocism and religion in general, even though it's not at all required for those things to come to fruition. The code of hammurabi predates all biblical rules, and is believed by more learned men than either of us, to be the foundation of modern morality, having been adopted by the christians in the form of the ten commandments and used elsewhere in the biblical world. His book, his bible, also strips Jesus of any god hood he may have had, and leaves Jesus as but a man, purely a man, not even the son of god. His bible, turns Jesus into a man, and wipes away his miracles. His bible, that you're using to define him as a christian(Even against his own words) was clearly a criticism OF the bible from his position.[/QUOTE] If the US were founded by Babylonians, then it would make perfect sense to have a statue of Hammurabi's codes, and if I lived in such a country, then you wouldn't hear me make a single peep of complaint about it. I also didn't use Jefferson's Bible to define him as a Christian. I used it to show that he valued Christian morals for society. You don't have to believe in Jesus or the truth of the Bible to think that Christian morals are good for society. [editline]30th June 2015[/editline] Honestly, please READ what I wrote and not what you think I meant to write.
[QUOTE=Grimhound;48089569]Wasn't it that Baphomet was mainly a figment and the actual thing was that they were accused of worshipping Mahomet (Mohammad)? I could just be going crazy or it could've been something I came across randomly and that actually was complete BS. I don't recall right.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet"]Wikipedia is your friend[/URL]. [QUOTE]Baphomet (/ˈbæfɵmɛt/; from Medieval Latin Baphometh, Baffometi, Occitan Bafometz) is a term originally used to describe an idol or other deity that the Knights Templar were accused of worshiping, and that subsequently was incorporated into disparate occult and mystical traditions. It appeared as a term for a pagan idol in trial transcripts of the Inquisition of the Knights Templar in the early 14th century.[1] The name first came into popular English usage in the 19th century, with debate and speculation on the reasons for the suppression of the Templars.[2] Since 1856, the name Baphomet has been associated with a "Sabbatic Goat" image drawn by Eliphas Levi[3] which contains binary elements representing the "sum total of the universe" (e.g. male and female, good and evil, etc.).[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48092286]I think it's pretty clear that I never said they wanted a Christian nation. You Might want to try reading and comprehending what you've read before mocking it.[/QUOTE] No, but you're certainly trying your hardest to convince everyone that Christianity is ingrained into our society in an attempt to justify being butt-hurt that they're removing a government-endorsed religious monument.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48090857]Something being related to religion is not equivalent to being used in benefit or support of that religion. The 10 commandments statue is a reminder of the historical significance of religion in the founding of the country and the call of our founding documents for equal rights as given by the divine. That simple fact doesn't mean that the government is supporting Christianity as the truth. To deny the historical significance of the Judeo-Christian heritage in the western legal system would just be ignorant.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]I AM the LORD thy God Thou shalt have no other gods before me Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy Honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee Thou shalt not kill Thou shalt not commit adultery Thou shalt not steal Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is thy neighbor's[/QUOTE] I don't think this was very relevant to the founding of the US. The first commandment is literally opposing freedom of religion.
gotta love my state. now we just need our governor out of the office.
Considering how many people Oklahoma has put to death Hammurabi's stele might be a more appropriate monument.
[QUOTE=waxrock;48090147]...because "No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such." It's right there.[/QUOTE] Which is why the whole "In God We Trust" and "One Nation, Under God" nonsense still irritate me.
[QUOTE=ijyt;48089414]That is a bitching fucking statue and I want a little replica on my desk. e: Maybe without the kids though, they're creepy. [img]http://i.imgur.com/ybxbt1O.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] [img]http://www.metalblade.com/us/covers/JobforaCowboy-Ruination.jpg[/img] The influence only makes this album cover that much more awesome. Also appearently last year someone ran over the 10 commandments monument with their car and said satan made them do it. [url]http://kfor.com/2014/10/24/ten-commandments-monument-at-oklahoma-capitol-reduced-to-rubble/[/url]
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48094871]Which is why the whole "In God We Trust" and "One Nation, Under God" nonsense still irritate me.[/QUOTE] I know people who try to argue these. I'm not sure about the "In God We Trust", but wasn't "under God" added to the pledge because of godless commie fear?
[QUOTE=Cows Rule;48095473]I know people who try to argue these. I'm not sure about the "In God We Trust", but wasn't "under God" added to the pledge because of godless commie fear?[/QUOTE] Yeah it was added in 1954
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48089515]As long as they are consistent about this ruling for everyone, this sounds good to me.[/QUOTE] This ruling applies only to Oklahoma, since the court found the monument violates Oklahoma's state constitution. I'm not sure what 'consistent' means in this context. The US Supreme Court already has ruled a display of the commandments can be legal for historical reasons. So now we have an interesting case of states' rights, the rally cry of the South. The state, Oklahoma, is AGAINST this display. The Feds say it's okay under certain conditions. So some people in this southern state are in the awkward position of saying "Screw what the state says, the Feds say it's okay! Federal power rules!"
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;48093878]No, but you're certainly trying your hardest to convince everyone that Christianity is ingrained into our society in an attempt to justify being butt-hurt that they're removing a government-endorsed religious monument.[/QUOTE] Just stop with the childish insults. I can easily just say you're trying to ignore the Judeo-Christian heritage because you're butt-hurt that people are forced to look at the 10 commandments. [QUOTE]I don't think this was very relevant to the founding of the US. The first commandment is literally opposing freedom of religion.[/QUOTE] The 10 commandments are symbolic of the entire Judeo-Christian heritage. They are not literally saying that the 10 commandments are the basis for our law.
[QUOTE=Llamalord;48090835]I found the actual replica they are selling on their website for funding: [url]http://shopsatan.com/collections/frontpage/products/bust-of-baphomet-miniature-replica[/url] [img]http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0428/0465/products/BaphoSmallFront_1024x1024.jpg?v=1420784179[/img][/QUOTE] The fact that the url is "shopsatan" just makes this that much fucking better :v:
[QUOTE=sgman91;48096548]Just stop with the childish insults. I can easily just say you're trying to ignore the Judeo-Christian heritage because you're butt-hurt that people are forced to look at the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are symbolic of the entire Judeo-Christian heritage. They are not literally saying that the 10 commandments are the basis for our law.[/QUOTE] But the Judeo-Christian heritage didn't originate many of it's beliefs, and other than making a lot of rules about idolatry the ten commandments aren't that original. Secularism was built into the very nature of the US, the foundations it was founded upon recognized christian morals, and did their best to separate themselves from them as well, making a unique country where neither king nor god ruled over the country. Secularism has and always will be, the nature of the US. Just because prominent people were of a prominent religion in a time period where it was mandatory to be of one religion or another isn't a symbol of much of anything to me but one of coincidence. Secular values, as opposed to what you have insisted across many threads over many years do not lead people to value life less. Not by necessity and not by definition. You can cite many people who do feel that way and I can cite just as many if not more that don't, and I can likely cite many more modern thinkers than you can who do not believe the life is valueless because of their secular moral system.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48096666]But the Judeo-Christian heritage didn't originate many of it's beliefs, and other than making a lot of rules about idolatry the ten commandments aren't that original.[/QUOTE] I think you have an extremely simplistic view of the historical development of the modern western world. There are so many lasting effects of Christianity within every facet of our way of life that you literally can't fully understand it without understanding the basic tenets of Christianity. One such example, of many, is the idea that humility is a good thing. Greco-Roman society looked down on humility as an act of the weak. The heroes of Greece and Rome were warriors who slayed their foes or great politicians who spoke aloud and to save their people. This stands in stark contrast to the greatest Christian hero, Christ, who died in humility after a life of being mocked and abused. Beyond the general influence of Christianity you have more specific US examples. Jefferson and Franklin, the non-Christians, identified so strongly with the Old Testament that their original design ideas for the great seal of the US depicted the Jews leaving Egypt as a symbol of the US leaving it's overlord, Britain. Franklin's very quote about the idea went as follows: "Moses standing on the Shore, and extending his Hand over the Sea, thereby causing the same to overwhelm Pharaoh who is sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his Head and a Sword in his Hand. Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Clouds reaching to Moses, to express that he acts by Command of the Deity. Motto, Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God." Interestingly enough, the strong Christian of the committee, John Adams, suggested a non-Christian design about Hercules. Another example is the "Illuminati" eye on the top of the pyramid. It represented the eye of providence, or in other words: the all seeing eye of God. [QUOTE]Secularism was built into the very nature of the US, the foundations it was founded upon recognized christian morals, and did their best to separate themselves from them as well, making a unique country where neither king nor god ruled over the country. Secularism has and always will be, the nature of the US.[/QUOTE] Secularism is the nature of the government, but not the nature of the people. The founders only believed in the ability of a secular society because they believed in the good moral base of the people within the society. Ironically, the idea of religious and governmental separation is originally found within Christianity, specifically, the phase: “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s," in Mark 12:17. Christianity was made to exist within a society that wasn't Christian. Nowhere does it tell followers of Christ to demand non-Christians follow Christian teachings. In fact it does the exact opposite. It tells Christians, "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?" in 1 Corinthians 5:12. [QUOTE]Just because prominent people were of a prominent religion in a time period where it was mandatory to be of one religion or another isn't a symbol of much of anything to me but one of coincidence.[/QUOTE] It isn't just that they were Christian, but that their Christian tradition informed the very fabric of how they thought of other people and government. [QUOTE]Secular values, as opposed to what you have insisted across many threads over many years do not lead people to value life less. Not by necessity and not by definition. You can cite many people who do feel that way and I can cite just as many if not more that don't, and I can likely cite many more modern thinkers than you can who do not believe the life is valueless because of their secular moral system.[/QUOTE] What you're talking about are not defined "secular" values. They are values of the specific group of secular people existing at this modern moment in history. My point isn't that secular people can't think that human life has value, but that that secularism doesn't necessitate that belief. A secular person can follow in the steps of Stalin, Mao, or Obama without going against reason. This doesn't stand for Christianity. If you're a Christian then you must put a high value on human life in order to have a consistent worldview. It necessitates the belief.
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