• Did Putin Blow Up the Whole Polish Government in 2010? A Second Look.
    87 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Joz;44535862]And for good reasons. Because for him, and for his party truth is not important. At least not anymore. They've been milking this catastrophe for their own selfish, political reasons, and it's actually the only thing that make them relevant on polish political scene (most of their voters are elderly and catholics who sadly are easy to manipulate in different ways).[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;NIRwUw7KVqE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIRwUw7KVqE[/video] They once tried to make a videoconference on Skype where everyone could "anonimously" express their opinions... You can see the results above :zoid: Or like this one time when one of his experts attempted to explain his hypothesis using a model consisting of a sausage and an empty can... Or something like that, i can't remember correctly.
Did Putin kill Lynyrd Skynyrd too?
I think we can draw the conclusion that Russia has something in the works for Europe.
Seen as an accident? man some people are gullible.
[QUOTE=Looter;44537126]\man some people are gullible.[/QUOTE] Indeed.
[QUOTE=KommradKommisar;44535555]Probably the Russian Winter.[/QUOTE] Did you mean....the Russian....[I][B][U]PUTIN[/U][/B][/I]? Now, Im surprised nobody put here the CVR from the Plane.... So, I will do it: [video=youtube;6cm8oIcBHAo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cm8oIcBHAo[/video] Some people just like to see things where there is nothing. Commission's findings were almost universaly ridiculed by experts in the field.[88] Among errors made by Macierewicz's "experts" - none of which actually had any experience with air crash investigations, or aeronautics at all[89] - were basic errors in performing simulations,[90][91] mistaking trash bags for fallen tree,[92] and plain confabulation.[93] In order to debunk commission's fringe theories, the Committee for Investigation of National Aviation Accidents created a web page explaining the situation in layman's terms.[94][95]
With this conspiracy theory, as well as with all the rest, it's very important that the motivations behind it be strong enough for a plot to be carried out. What exactly would be the motivation for killing a bunch of Polish government and military figures? Some people have said that the president who was killed was anti-Russian and the current government is pro-Russian but is it really? I mean, how pro-Russian is a government that invokes NATO meetings over concerns of Russian aggression? Do you think that ANY Polish government would be pro-Russian enough to make some sort of difference? The costs of some sort of assassination plot hatched by Putin weighed against the potential benefits to Russia don't level out at all.
[QUOTE=Explosions;44539100]With this conspiracy theory, as well as with all the rest, it's very important that the motivations behind it be strong enough for a plot to be carried out. What exactly would be the motivation for killing a bunch of Polish government and military figures? Some people have said that the president who was killed was anti-Russian and the current government is pro-Russian but is it really? I mean, how pro-Russian is a government that invokes NATO meetings over concerns of Russian aggression? Do you think that ANY Polish government would be pro-Russian enough to make some sort of difference? The costs of some sort of assassination plot hatched by Putin weighed against the potential benefits to Russia don't level out at all.[/QUOTE] What did Putin lose then? Doesn't seem like a lot
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44540394]What did Putin lose then? Doesn't seem like a lot[/QUOTE] Please tell me you are joking
This entire thread :tinfoil: But to be honestly I don't trust the Russian government for a second.
Stuff like this and the media trying to implicate Russia with some partial blame to the Boston bombings. What else will be dredged up and pinned on Russia? People say RT is bad for propaganda but there is a fair amount of propaganda from both sides at the moment.
[QUOTE=Looter;44537126]Seen as an accident? man some people are gullible.[/QUOTE] As far as I remember, it was simply because the weather was shit and the airport was shit as well. The runway was about 15 meters higher (or something) than the terrain the plane would fly over when trying to land. Either Russia made two pilots commit suicide (while acting like they didn't) or else they basically fabricated the whole thing. Or else it might have been because accidents do happen once in a while, even if they may seem too convenient to be real. I must say that I'm skeptical, but well.
[IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/2uzp6jt.jpg[/IMG] Picture taken shortly before the flight set out to it's doom.
Putin did this 'cuz the occupants of the plane was anti russian and anti Putin which was a thorn in his side.
It was an old Tu-154 with an incompetent flight crew trying to land in unknown airport under a lot of pressure in 100 m visibity (the ATC [I]denied[/I] the landing request) with no ILS and rough terrian (the runway is on a hill). They were kinda asking to end up in a tree. Now, whoeever ever allowed the whole Polish government on board of this stupid plane is an interesting person for sure... I understand nobody likes Putin, but it's no reason to invent stupid things.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;44536746]Did Putin kill Lynyrd Skynyrd too?[/QUOTE] He had James Dean whacked, shot John Lennon, noscoped Kennedy, stuck the barrel in Budd Dwyer's mouth, turned on the gas in Auschwitz, [b]and[/b] shot the sheriff and fucked the deputy.
[QUOTE=Trogdon;44536746]Did Putin kill Lynyrd Skynyrd too?[/QUOTE] No, he killed Kurt Cobain instead.
[QUOTE=revzin;44542326]It was an old Tu-154 with an incompetent flight crew trying to land in unknown airport under a lot of pressure in 100 m visibity (the ATC [I]denied[/I] the landing request) with no ILS and rough terrian (the runway is on a hill). They were kinda asking to end up in a tree. Now, whoeever ever allowed the whole Polish government on board of this stupid plane is an interesting person for sure... I understand nobody likes Putin, but it's no reason to invent stupid things.[/QUOTE] I can't even fucking comprehend how an airport can be unknown if it has crew responding. Also you're skipping the fact that they had a reason to do this, they didn't try to land the plane just because and for no reason.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;44535160]The next elections might be too late when you'll have "peaceful pro-russian protests" in Eastern Poland :v:[/QUOTE] They pulled this shit, uh, well depends on whether you count the partitions? Cause if you do, they did this shit [i]four fucking times[/i]. I doubt anyone'd fall for that again. Besides, unlike Ukraine, Poland's a) a member of the European Union, and b) America's most significant Eastern European ally. (or at least that's what politicians say, but that's what counts in this case) So yeah, the Ruskies know that the best result here would be a [i]Twilight 2000[/i]-esque scenario, and I doubt anyone wants to start whipping out the nukes now (aside from North Korea but nobody gives a fuck about North Korea) [QUOTE=MartinPL;44542755]I can't even fucking comprehend how an airport can be unknown if it has crew responding. Also you're skipping the fact that they had a reason to do this, they didn't try to land the plane just because and for no reason.[/QUOTE] I'm guessing he meant 'unknown' as in 'the pilots never landed on that particular airport before' and yeah, he's right - unknown airport, shitty foggy weather, the 'control tower' was basically a shack with one dude manning the radio iirc, they fucked up the altimeter readings, it was just a disaster waiting to happen granted whoever put all of our political elite ('elite') on one plane is a fucking moron... but I'm pretty sure that particular moron was on the plane too so he fucked himself over and nobody in Poland loves Russians to the point of committing suicide for 'em so yeah also I love how the most sceptical people in this thread are actually Polish and know what's going on and everyone else's just going off Daily Mail and shitty quality youtube videos
[QUOTE=MartinPL;44542755]I can't even fucking comprehend how an airport can be unknown if it has crew responding. Also you're skipping the fact that they had a reason to do this, they didn't try to land the plane just because and for no reason.[/QUOTE] By 'unknown' I've meant that was the crew's first landing there, not that they didn't know where they were going to. They weren't aware that it's on a hill, which contributed to the confusion. What reason did they have to land but Mr Kachinskiy's orders? Again, the ATC denied the landing. Here's the voice recorder transcription in both languages: [url]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91422001/20100601085407739.pdf[/url] Interesting parts: p. 21. Flight 044 that carried the president's guard and successfully landed at Smolensk warns the president's 101 about bad weather. ATC asks the capitan if there's enough fuel to abort the landing and get to the secondary (Minsk or Vitebsk, p. 23), the capitan responds positively. Again, on p. 21 the ATC says the weather does not permit the landing. (Everything beyond 400 meters is covered in fog.) p. 23 The Capitan tells someone unidentified ('Arek' in the cockpit) that they're not likely to land in these weather conditions, but they'll try. A divertion to a secondary airfield is discussed. p. 26. 044 again warns about the fog and overcast. p. 33. The ATC tells the 101 to be ready to go around. p. 38. The ATC once again denies the landing ("Посадка дополнительно/Ladowanie dodatkowo"). p. 37 onwards. TAWS continiously warns against impending ground collision. Even worse, the airport didn't have any ILS equipment. It is forbidden to attempt a landing with bad visibility without ILS (visibility must be above 2000 meters as per Russian VFR rules). It's hardly anyone's fault that they decided to be that stubborn. They didn't have any critical failures and they had enough fuel to divert. They've been warned and decided to land even with the ATC denying the landing. This situation hardly needed any external interference to end in shit. Once again, the reasons this ended in flames are kinda obvious: 1. Don't put everyone important on the same plane 2. Don't attempt to land when you're told to divert by a lot of people. 400m fog means you have around three seconds to react in a Tu-154... 3. DO NOT IGNORE TAWS AT ALL TIMES 4. etc etc etc Basically, they did everything wrong. There're a looot of questions for anyone who organized this very unfortunate flight. Can't really see how anyone could've interefered from the russian side...
[QUOTE=revzin;44543129]By 'unknown' I've meant that was the crew's first landing there, not that they didn't know where they were going to. They weren't aware that it's on a hill, which contributed to the confusion. What reason did they have to land but Mr Kachinskiy's orders? Again, the ATC denied the landing. Here's the voice recorder transcription in both languages: [url]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91422001/20100601085407739.pdf[/url] Interesting parts: p. 21. Flight 044 that carried the president's guard and successfully landed at Smolensk warns the president's 101 about bad weather. ATC asks the capitan if there's enough fuel to abort the landing and get to the secondary (Minsk or Vitebsk, p. 23), the capitan responds positively. Again, on p. 21 the ATC says the weather does not permit the landing. (Everything beyond 400 meters is covered in fog.) p. 23 The Capitan tells someone unidentified ('Arek' in the cockpit) that they're not likely to land in these weather conditions, but they'll try. A divertion to a secondary airfield is discussed. p. 26. 044 again warns about the fog and overcast. p. 33. The ATC tells the 101 to be ready to go around. p. 38. The ATC once again denies the landing ("Посадка дополнительно/Ladowanie dodatkowo"). p. 37 onwards. TAWS continiously warns against impending ground collision. Even worse, the airport didn't have any ILS equipment. It is forbidden to attempt a landing with bad visibility without ILS (visibility must be above 2000 meters as per Russian VFR rules). It's hardly anyone's fault that they decided to be that stubborn. They didn't have any critical failures and they had enough fuel to divert. They've been warned and decided to land even with the ATC denying the landing. This situation hardly needed any external interference to end in shit. Once again, the reasons this ended in flames are kinda obvious: 1. Don't put everyone important on the same plane 2. Don't attempt to land when you're told to divert by a lot of people. 400m fog means you have around three seconds to react in a Tu-154... 3. DO NOT IGNORE TAWS AT ALL TIMES 4. etc etc etc Basically, they did everything wrong. There're a looot of questions for anyone who organized this very unfortunate flight. Can't really see how anyone could've interefered from the russian side...[/QUOTE] RIDF, is it you?
[QUOTE=revzin;44542326]It was an old Tu-154 with an incompetent flight crew trying to land in unknown airport under a lot of pressure in 100 m visibity (the ATC [I]denied[/I] the landing request) with no ILS and rough terrian (the runway is on a hill). They were kinda asking to end up in a tree. Now, whoeever ever allowed the whole Polish government on board of this stupid plane is an interesting person for sure... I understand nobody likes Putin, but it's no reason to invent stupid things.[/QUOTE]I posted pretty much the same thing in the thread about the actual event. Basically the Tu-154 is a piece of shit to begin with and has a long, [i]long[/i] history of being a bitch to fly and trying to kill anyone who steps inside it. Then there's the issue about the airport's location, the weather, and the pilot's silly decision to press ahead despite several clear indications that this was a bad idea. I highly doubt there's some conspiracy because, really, the Tu-154 is a death trap and the Polish government knew this. There's a very, very good reason why the United States uses the Boeing VC-25 to fly the president all over; it's a sturdy, reliable airframe and a breeze to fly. (just like all 747s, you don't need to be a super badass to fly one and the VC-25 is no different)
[QUOTE=Swebonny;44533777]The crash may be suspicious, but you're underestimating the strength of trees. Plus, you have to take note that the planes are of different model.[/QUOTE] And one is travelling at taxi speed and the other at landing speed, considerable differences in velocity
[QUOTE=Darth_Kris;44542533]No, he killed Kurt Cobain instead.[/QUOTE] more like kurt go bang am i right
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44533752]It's a disgustingly cowardly way of killing your enemies.[/QUOTE] What age do you live in? Should they have a sword fight, or a duel? You're being silly.
[QUOTE=Drsalvador;44542419]He had James Dean whacked, shot John Lennon, noscoped Kennedy, stuck the barrel in Budd Dwyer's mouth, turned on the gas in Auschwitz, [B]and[/B] shot the sheriff and fucked the deputy.[/QUOTE] I hear he shot a man in Reиo just to watch him die.
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