Dai said that you use a controller to move your player as well as physical movement. Obviously he didn't mean to explicitly state that only one specific controller design should be used.
[QUOTE=bitches;47685665]Dai said that you use a controller to move your player as well as physical movement. Obviously he didn't mean to explicitly state that only one specific controller design should be used.[/QUOTE]
Then the Vive controllers are rendered useless as the player is using a third party controller.
This is a useless argument as both sides feel the other side is being willfully ignorant.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685681]Would it be a huge stretch for then to implement some form of directional control? That controller looks very prototype-y, are you sure thats the final iteration of it?[/QUOTE]
They could but if they were going to implement the suggested system then that seems like something they would have had to have done much earlier. In no way do I think that's the final iteration of it, I just doubt that the controller movement solution will be used.
[QUOTE=bitches;47685688]No, you're missing the point that it is a prototype. You don't seem to understand hardware development at all.[/QUOTE]
I think you are missing the point, the Vive has been shown to have two controllers for two hands. Neither as of yet have directional controls for movement and humans usually have 2 hands at most.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685645]Incorrect this was the suggestion given
The solution given does not work then or is at very least unlikely to be implemented.[/QUOTE]
Would it be a huge stretch for then to implement some form of directional control? That controller looks very prototype-y, are you sure thats the final iteration of it?
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685678]Then the Vive controllers are rendered useless as the player is using a third party controller.
This is a useless argument as both sides feel the other side is being willfully ignorant.[/QUOTE]
No, you're missing the point that it is a prototype. You don't seem to understand hardware development at all.
it's the funniest shit ever when someone bitches about bad design for something that hasn't been finished being designed yet
[QUOTE=J!NX;47685383][t]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/05/googleglass-prototyping.jpg[/t][t]http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_super/2/25997/2433261-wii-u-gamepad-prototype.jpg[/t][t]http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2013/11/prototype-screen-xbox-one-controller-610x451.jpg[/t][t]http://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/valve-steam-controller-prototypes-640x353.jpg[/t][t]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2012/08/oculus2.jpeg[/t][/QUOTE]
is this bad design as well?
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685571]I am not mad about them trying to utilize space but I think the current approach is a hazard. I absolutely do not think that you're "extremely aware of how far you've turned or moved in any direction" when immersed in gameplay.
I am also curious about your take on the previous questions.[/QUOTE]
Broski have u even tried it???
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685678]
They could but if they were going to implement the suggested system then that seems like something they would have had to have done much earlier. In no way do I think that's the final iteration of it, I just doubt that the controller movement solution will be used.[/QUOTE]
Well you'd be wrong:
[quote]Even so, this comes off as more of a prelude to Valve's real achievement: the motion-tracking wands of the Vive. They're essentially one heavily modified Steam Controller, split in half and (as someone at Valve put it) equipped with little plastic hats. The hats are covered in sensors that allow Vive's base station to detect them accurately, and [B]each controller includes a [U]trackpad[/U], a trigger, a couple of buttons, and a grip that can detect squeezes. [/B]Compared to most simple motion tracking systems, they're absurdly accurate and responsive; I could walk around and pick up objects confidently, expertly examining them and tossing them around.[/quote]
The trackpad being the directional input, ah-la Steam Controller.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685708]Well you'd be wrong:
The trackpad being the directional input, ah-la Steam Controller.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected, I couldn't find the specs on it.
In that case it could be used but I have yet to see a solution to the problem scenario I provided.
Didnt you say you were in the industry? How do you not know this stuff?
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685720]I stand corrected, I couldn't find the specs on it.
In that case it could be used but I have yet to see a solution to the problem scenario I provided.[/QUOTE]
what would you have them do then?
how did he not post the solution?
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685678]They could but if they were going to implement the suggested system then that seems like something they would have had to have done much earlier.[B] In no way do I think that's the final iteration of it, I just doubt that the controller movement solution will be used.[/B][/QUOTE]
discarding how this isn't the case, you're saying that you (who doesn't know their plans), believe that a team working on this as a major part of their careers, somehow either isn't aware of this design challenge, or chose specifically not to attempt it? or you're saying that they're doing some OTHER solution unknown
in any case, none of this backs up your original statement that
[QUOTE=Thlis;47678319]My point is whoever came up with the idea, of walking around a room while dragging around an easily trippable cable behind your back while you are essentially blindfolded, is a moron.[/QUOTE]
[editline]8th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685720]I stand corrected, I couldn't find the specs on it.
In that case it could be used but I have yet to see a solution to the problem scenario I provided.[/QUOTE]
what problem? moving around? knowing room boundaries? both problems are [I]already solved[/I], as said earlier
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685728]Didnt you say you were in the industry? How do you not know this stuff?[/QUOTE]
That's like saying "you work in the computer industry how do you not know that the new macbook is 17.3-mm thick off the top of your head".
And no I said I am working on products for VR.
[QUOTE=J!NX;47685737]what would you have them do then?[/QUOTE]
If it had to be standing up I think bitches solution is the best one, ie move one foot forward etc.
I still think it's better to go with sitting in a chair with a controller.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685720]
In that case it could be used but I have yet to see a solution to the problem scenario I provided.[/QUOTE]
How is that a problem, exactly? Current demos solve it by physically demarcating the area you have to work in with visual cues (a subtle box on the floor, etc). As Dai noted, you wouldn't necessarily have to move to the center of the area to move around, the controller just moves your working area around.
Using a controller is immersion breaking as it is, I dont think being mindful of your area is going to be any moreso.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685757]How is that a problem, exactly? Current demos solve it by physically demarcating the area you have to work in with visual cues (a subtle box on the floor, etc). As Dai noted, you wouldn't necessarily have to move to the center of the area to move around, the controller just moves your working area around.
Using a controller is immersion breaking as it is, I dont think being mindful of your area is going to be any moreso.[/QUOTE]
Because the player would constantly be recentering themselves within their real room, it doesn't seem fun.
A controller is actually less immersion breaking as it requires less motor function for maximum input.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685763]Because the player would constantly be recentering themselves within their real room, it doesn;t seem fun.[/QUOTE]
why would they have to do that?
they could approach an object, notice they are at the edge of their workspace, and use the controller to shift the work area into the appropriate position.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685440]First
Person walks forward 2ft, that is the edge of their real space but the VR room is 10ft.
Your solution is to make the person disconnect from immersion, remember "oh yeah I better step back 2ft so I am centered. And then use a controller to move further?
Second, genuine question, how do you use this controller to walk in any direction?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/QvGvNeH.jpg[/img]
If you consider disagreeing with an idea "throwing a horrible tantrum" when I haven't called anyone "Mr. Humblebrag" or "irresponsibly clumsy" then I really don't know what to say.[/QUOTE]
These are trackpads, just drag your finger to the direction you want to move and you move. The other one can be used to do actions in combinations with the buttons.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/n7STGUM.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685768]why would they have to do that?
they could approach an object, notice they are at the edge of their workspace, and use the controller to shift the work area into the appropriate position.[/QUOTE]
Because if you walk forward in real life and then move forward with a controller in VR you are still forward from your original position in real life.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685782]not sure why you think they would need to recenter themselves in the real room to move the virtual one[/QUOTE]
Because if you take a step forward, then move in another direction with your controller, then take a step forward, repeat without taking a step back, then you are going to hit a real wall.
not sure why you think they would need to recenter themselves in the real room to move the virtual one
[editline]8th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685781]Because if you walk forward in real life and then move forward with a controller in VR you are still forward from your original position in real life.[/QUOTE]
So what? the object you want to interact with has now moved into your work area and you move around it as you please
I feel like we are visualizing two totally different scenarios here, explain what the scenario in your head is.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685782]not sure why you think they would need to recenter themselves in the real room to move the virtual one[/QUOTE]
he's referring to angles
and missing the obvious that you can use a controller to change your angle
DK2 demos do this stuff all the time; move forward with a key or input, which moves you in the direction you're [I]looking at[/I], to feel natural, and also have inputs for turning the whole body around
combined together they feel natural enough
it really is like he doesn't use VR products at all
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685782]
So what? the object you want to interact with has now moved into your work area and you move around it as you please
I feel like we are visualizing two totally different scenarios here, explain what the scenario in your head is.[/QUOTE]
I'll mock up a diagram.
There is no affordable solution to the problem you have set up outside of
[video=youtube;9iJdumg9pMk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJdumg9pMk[/video]
simply moving a foot forward
that and that other technique where you turn around the rooms real corners as you walk in the vr world but that needs to be wireless
[QUOTE=bitches;47685802]he's referring to angles
and missing the obvious that you can use a controller to change your angle
DK2 demos do this stuff all the time; move forward with a key or input, which moves you in the direction you're [I]looking at[/I], to feel natural, and also have inputs for turning the whole body around
[B]
combined together they feel natural enough[/B]
it really is like he doesn't use VR products at all[/QUOTE]
thats the key thing here IMO
We get immersed in games NOW, and all we have are normal controllers (or mice and keyboards) and fixed screens. How exactly would what we are talking about here be [I]less[/I] immersive than what we have now?
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685782]
I feel like we are visualizing two totally different scenarios here, explain what the scenario in your head is.[/QUOTE]
Here is the problem.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wL45fay.png[/IMG]
The player must constantly recenter themselves, via wireframe cube or some other indicator, in order to avoid walking out of bounds or into a wall.
Further add to the annoyance that when ever you recenter yourself RL then your VR game will also move back the same amount, leaving you constantly switching between walking and using a controller.
[QUOTE=J!NX;47685816]There is no affordable solution to the problem you have set up outside of
[video=youtube;9iJdumg9pMk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJdumg9pMk[/video]
simply moving a foot forward
that and that other technique where you turn around the rooms real corners as you walk in the vr world but that needs to be wireless[/QUOTE]
I agree, that's why I think bitches idea, while not the best for immersion, would at least not have the player trying to constantly recenter themselves.
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;47685819]thats the key thing here IMO
We get immersed in games NOW, and all we have are normal controllers (or mice and keyboards) and fixed screens. How exactly would what we are talking about here be [I]less[/I] immersive than what we have now?[/QUOTE]
Again, the reason why controllers are excellent is because it is minimal thought to minimal motorfunction to perform an action.
then there is the omnitredmill/similar which fixes the entire issue, but that has money involved in getting
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685571]
I am also curious about your take on the previous questions.
[quote]First
Person walks forward 2ft, that is the edge of their real space but the VR room is 10ft.
Your solution is to make the person disconnect from immersion, remember "oh yeah I better step back 2ft so I am centered. And then use a controller to move further?
Second, genuine question, how do you use this controller to walk in any direction?[/quote][/QUOTE]
alright let's get straight into this
existing with the DK2 right now is one camera. It doesn't require any precision match-up with any other cameras, so it does its best to center you, based on a single starting point. When you reach the edge of the camera's viewing area, many simulations built around it will show a wireframe representation of where the camera and its viewing box are, to let you know you're approaching the side.
now
with multiple sensor arrays, like the vive will be using, you need to perform some calibration to let the two sensors know how they relate to each other and the room they're in. As an example, I currently use a system using Vicon motion trackers, 4 at the corners of a small area. each individual camera understands a basic visual space of the trackers you're using (like the oculus, a headset or other object has an array of trackers in a set pattern so it understands the object itself and its orientation), but the four of those need a lot of data before they can bounce info back and forth with each other to understand the 3D position of a single marker by itself. This is done by using a set shape calibrator (a T-shaped wand with a few high power LEDs in this instance) and moving it about in the space you'll be using. In doing so, you inform the cameras of what locations are identical in 3D space (they all see the LEDs at the same time so they can sort it out), plus you define a set area to utilize just by showing what space is movable, and then you define center of the floor to orient the camera positions. You now have a visual representation of your floor and four corners of the playable space.
[quote][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfNm0jKSwk0[/media][/quote]
now, those two controllers you keep posting, and I see others have pointed it out, [i]are still controllers[/i]. Your experience is not limited solely to the space you're in, you (again) are basically moving the entire room's playable area around when you use navigational controls to get around. Their physical trackers is only there to represent the location of your hands in relation to your headset, not anything to do with navigation.
This may or may not also be an option:
[video=youtube;rfK6z7xwtfU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfK6z7xwtfU[/video]
[QUOTE=dai;47685974]alright let's get straight into this
existing with the DK2 right now is one camera. It doesn't require any precision match-up with any other cameras, so it does its best to center you, based on a single starting point. When you reach the edge of the camera's viewing area, many simulations built around it will show a wireframe representation of where the camera and its viewing box are, to let you know you're approaching the side.
now
with multiple sensor arrays, like the vive will be using, you need to perform some calibration to let the two sensors know how they relate to each other and the room they're in. As an example, I currently use a system using Vicon motion trackers, 4 at the corners of a small area. each individual camera understands a basic visual space of the trackers you're using (like the oculus, a headset or other object has an array of trackers in a set pattern so it understands the object itself and its orientation), but the four of those need a lot of data before they can bounce info back and forth with each other to understand the 3D position of a single marker by itself. This is done by using a set shape calibrator and moving it about in the space you'll be using, including setting it at the center of your area to define the floor location and let the trackers represent the four corners of your space
now, those two controllers you keep posting, and I see others have pointed it out, [I]are still controllers[/I]. Your game is not defined by the size of your space, you (again) are basically moving the entire room's playable area around when you use the controllers to navigate beyond just holding them. Their physical trackers is only there to represent the location of your hands in relation to your headset, not anything to do with navigation.[/QUOTE]
I think we are arguing two different things here. I was talking about the above real life room recentering issue.
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685985]I think we are arguing two different things here. I was talking about the above real life room recentering issue.[/QUOTE]
conveniently ignoring the obvious solution that was already posted; turning physically to face a new direction and using the game cameras to offset that turn, while using controllers as the primary method of movement and feet for close inspections
[QUOTE=Thlis;47685985]I think we are arguing two different things here. I was talking about the above real life room recentering issue.[/QUOTE]
You define the center and that remains a constant for the rest of gameplay, resetting yourself is only done if you mess it up the first time. If you walk to the edge of your room it's your own fault, freedom of movement isn't going to be for the sake of literally walking forever in your game, it'll be for positional awareness in a static environment. [edit- like bitches said, you'll likely be inspecting your immediate surroundings if you're physically moving about.]
immersion can take a backseat to "remembering I'm in a room with a cable", I'd say that's pretty petty on the list of legit problems one can have with both the hardware and the sim they're inside. With the DK2 I don't think I've stopped to go "ah shit I just remembered I'm standing still in front of my desk instead of walking around this huge hotel!", you're wholly focused on the simulation as a cool place you're exploring.
Maybe it just takes trying a few things out to understand how you use it. All the gimmicky oculus demos out there are neat but they don't really give the kind of experience that games and simulations that are tailored to be long-playable VR content will.
[QUOTE=Buck.;47685979]This may or may not also be an option:
[video=youtube;rfK6z7xwtfU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfK6z7xwtfU[/video][/QUOTE]
that is but you have to limit it by a wire, sadly
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