• Former Marine Describes Violent Hazing and the Lies That Covered It Up
    158 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51191371]And the possible criminal charges? These innocent men and women who clearly did nothing wrong for allegedly stuffing people into driers could go to jail for no good reason! You already illustrated that you know exactly what is going on; you have the chance to stop these criminal charges from being filed in the first place thanks to your intimate knowledge of military procedure and culture. Whatever happened to no man left behind? You have a duty to save your fellow servicemen from sitting in front of an unjust judge or an unjust jury who will decide whether or not stuffing people into driers is ethical. All the justice system is trying to do is save face; you gotta stop that from happening and get real justice for these brave innocent warriors.[/QUOTE] Lol wat? It is literally a giant save of face. Those guys are going to face criminal charges, a bunch of people are going to have to watch safety briefings, and the kid who went in the dryer is going to do whatever he's doing in the Corps. No man was left behind, and while someone got the short stick it is what it is. It wont happen again because if some Sgt does that he'll have his head on a platter. That's your Justice. [QUOTE=Kyle902;51191358]To be fair we don't exactly know if the charges are justified or not as we don't know what the actual charges are. Nor do we know the veracity of the charges.[/QUOTE] Most likely it will be dereliction of duty, failure to obey orders or duty, maiming, and good ol article 134. It will probably be a court-marshal, though depending how much of an uproar it brings it may lead to a general court -marshal or get dropped down to an NJP. Although because the potential for great bodily harm was there it would more than likely be a court-marshal, which would if they're found guilty be demoted and discharged with an other than honorable. Their command may be able to save them, depending on how much they liked them individually honestly, and give them an NJP which would mean demotion and removal from the drill field.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191374]I'm against the grievous bodily injury, but the mental health stuff id the reason why they do it. If the shit they do makes you crack in bootcamp, literally the easiest thing you'll do your entire career, do you really think they'd be fit for real combat? If you can't handle words or minor physical altercations what makes you think you wont outright crack when the bullets are whizzing over youre head and your buddy just turned into pink mist? That's the point, weed out the weak to leave the strong. If you can't hack it get out because the last thing we need is a bunch of walking liabilities ready to call it quits when someone raises their voice to them and completely locks up the first time they hear a gunshot in country.[/QUOTE] Oh no I'm not saying that. But something needs to be done to get them out of there prior to things like [quote]shortly before the recruit leapt to his death from the barracks, the report found.[/quote] or your own story [quote]watched a kid stab himself a dozen times in the chest with some grooming scissors because he didn't want to be there anymore[/quote] There also shouldn't be a stigma against people who couldn't take it and dropped out.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;51191383]Oh no I'm not saying that. But something needs to be done to get them out of there prior to things like or your own story There also shouldn't be a stigma against people who couldn't take it and dropped out.[/QUOTE] There will always be a stigma against those guys, because those are the guys we don't want to be. Really they should just make getting out of it easier. When I was in aircrew school at any point I could just yell "DOR" and I could quit. Can't do that in boot camp. If they had that then maybe it would allow these people to weed themselves out.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191382]Lol wat? It is literally a giant save of face. Those guys are going to face criminal charges, a bunch of people are going to have to watch safety briefings, and the kid who went in the dryer is going to do whatever he's doing in the Corps. No man was left behind, and while someone got the short stick it is what it is. It wont happen again because if some Sgt does that he'll have his head on a platter. That's your Justice.[/QUOTE] So the military gets merely accused of participating in human rights violations against recruits, something that you know couldn't possibly have happened because you understand how the military works and none of this is actually unjust, and they just fold under pressure even before the first news articles come out? I didn't realize that the military was this weak.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191400]There will always be a stigma against those guys, because those are the guys we don't want to be. Really they should just make getting out of it easier. When I was in aircrew school at any point I could just yell "DOR" and I could quit. Can't do that in boot camp. If they had that then maybe it would allow these people to weed themselves out.[/QUOTE] Remember what they always teach you bro, it just takes one person to make the Corps look bad. Personally I don't think hazing beyond like getting IT'd,forced to drink water,getting chewed out or called names really bad. Honestly most shit they say they don't really mean but they want you get mad at them, they want you pretty much man the fuck up and prove them wrong. Granted I was 2nd Bat and I didn't see much hazing from my DI's other than maving shoving or kicking at people's feet other than that it was your regular old games. But I don't condone some dick of an instructor who more or less tortured a kid, there's a clear line of literally what you can call acceptable hazing and intending to cause actual harm to someone.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51191402]So the military gets merely accused of participating in human rights violations against recruits, something that you know couldn't possibly have happened because you understand how the military works and none of this is actually unjust, and they just fold under pressure even before the first news articles come out? I didn't realize that the military was this weak.[/QUOTE] Don't be an ass. Higher command knows its going on and always has, and they allow most of it to happen. The first thing you need to remember is as a member of the military, you have no rights other than those granted by the UCMJ. You can kiss the bill of rights goodbye when you sign the dotted line. You can call it human rights violations all you want, and while you're not wrong, you also need to remember that people willingly signed those rights away to serve. Because of that I feel no pity for them, nor do I expect any from anyone for the things I did and endured. Second, they fold when media like this picks up on it. If kids didn't write home about it and their moms didn't have the "my poor baby" mentality you would have never heard of it, and change would have only come once someone actually got hurt. Now there are some issues that are serious, such as being tumble tried, but quite frankly things like that happen few and far between and would have been punished regardless of media coverage. It may not have been to the same extent, but 99% chance they'd never step on the drill field again.
I'm just going to weigh in on this because like I said, I shared DI's (mostly) with this kid and one of the men fired was fired due to the investigations that started with my platoon and snowballed into the massive investigation currently happening. I'm really on the fence with the issue because I went there expecting to be fucked with (and I was! Lost forty pounds through misery) and I know why it happens. You join the Marines to be the best, training is there to weed out those who don't belong. The physical and emotional strain is extreme. With that said, they did a lot of stuff to us I wouldn't agree with, and although I tell stories and laugh about it now and a lot of it made me stronger, I still feel a lot of it was completely unecessary and done for no more reason than to cause misery for us. I'm going to list some stuff they did that I feel was too far. I'm not going to list stuff I feel was justified (hitting us, PTing us all day, whatever) because I feel like that sort of thing can be justified for making you strong enough to do the mission and for the most part I'm not [I]for[/I] it perse but I see it's place in boot. Anyway, some of the stuff they did: [b]*[/b] Constantly cut chow so we didn't eat. They'd have us all sit down, wait for the last table to sit, and then shout "30 seconds!" and have us all pack up before we could even get a fork to our mouth and run us out. Missing one or two meals in a day sometimes might not sound [I]too[/I] bad, but you're in an environment where you're easily burning thousands of calories every day and you're going to be miserably tired, hungry and weak from the lack of food even with three meals. [b]*[/b] Encourage fighting. My DIs decided we weren't going to be smart or strong but we would fight and my platoon became known as the 'fight club'. We were constantly encouraged to beat the shit out of eachother, brawl, attack other platoons, and so on. Anyone who disagreed with our DIs or our platoon leadership got themselves beat the shit out of by squad leaders / our guide (recruits in leadership roles). We constantly got in full on brawls with other platoons, and anyone in the platoon who didn't want to assault other recruits was derided and shit on constantly. I was outcasted from the platoon until I started fighting at about week 10, and then I maintained respect and friendship by basically beating the shit out of anyone who insulted me. I didn't like it, and although I feel like Marines need to be able to fight, the constant fighting and threats of beating by other recruits just killed all team building and made the whole experience worse. [b]*[/b] Bleach. Bleach everywhere. They had a race that many Marines would be familiar with called the 'Dumb Bitch 500' where they made us push all of our racks (beds) to the center of the barracks, poured almost pure bleach across the floor, made us get our scuzz brushes (little wooden brushes, google it), squat down and 'race' around the barracks, over and over. Bleach would be splashing up on our arms, into our eyes, kids would skid out and lay in the bleach and be covered in burns and shit, and it'd ruin your legs. I never saw any training value in it, it was always just a punishment for literally anything. The worst was when they brought us to the firing range squadbays, which were built in the 60s and literally look exactly like the ones in FMJ and had us do it there. There's no ventilation, and they closed all the windows and doors, and it was smoking hot, so nobody could breath from all of the bleach fumes and there was puke everywhere, all the while they kicked us and screamed at us to keep going. I had breathing points from that point on until two or so months ago. About a year total. [b]*[/b] And they never stopped. It just went on and on and on. Everyone talks about how the DIs become fatherly and change in the last week but my 3 DIs never really did. They had their favorites they were always chill to and everyone else could fuck off. We were still getting fucked with on our last week, when we were supposed to be Marines. I have memories (hilarious) of us stumbling into our barracks after the Crucible (the final big training event you complete to earn the title, on week 12 of 13) and my DI shouted "Ah so you think just cause you're Marines you made it? Sprint, bitches!" and then he fucked with us for an hour despite everything. It just didn't stop. We never got a decompression period to make it feel like we did it and the training helped. My DIs fucked with everyone until we left the island. [b]*[/b] My DIs had recruits do the dirty work. Straight beatings by the DIs only happened maybe two or three times and honestly I don't have too much problem with those. But they'd have instances where they'd 'subtly' hint for squad leaders and guides to deal with it. One kid got angry at a DI and that night our squad leaders and guide pulled him out of his rack and beat the shit out of him. I once bent my kneese in the squadbay while we were all standing there and they had a squad leader come up and sucker punch me in the gut and then slam my head against the ground to prove a point to the platoon, and since they backed these kids, if you fought back they would have you painted as the agressor. Me and most of my platoon mates were constantly pissed and afraid this fighting shit would leave us with a serious injury and get us dropped from training. It almost did. [b]*[/b] And the topping on the cake, and what originally got the investigations going, they caught one kid with some peanut butter packets he took from the chowhall. They proceeded to have all of our squad leaders, our guide and him brought into the 'house' (room the DIs stay in) and eat dozens of meals, cliff bars, and chug them down with gatorade, as well as hot sauce packets. Everytime they threw up they had to chug another gatorade and keep going. They couldn't eat for a week, and the kid they caught ended up reporting it and it restarted the investigation from the previous point and got one of my DIs put out of training. But instead of doing anything to him, they promoted him and he was training recruits two months later. [b]*[/b] Oh and none of this was ever punished. They always implied if we went to an officer or whatever and tried to get help we would be fucking annihalated and even if we won then the whole platoon would get destroyed as a result. One one of my DIs ever had any action taken when he was removed from the training cycle, and he was immediately promoted and put back in. Nothing was ever done, and only after the investigations restarted thanks to the eating thing and after a few months, my batallion leader got fired for knowing about it and doing nothing. All of the officers knew, you could tell by the cheeky way they pretended they didn't know what the DIs were doing, our chief DI (he leads all of the DIs in the company) knew about it, even though he was supposed to keep things legal, our company commander knew, everyone knew. The only time anything ever gets changed at boot is when news like this breaks, otherwise, nobody really seems to care. The only person there I ever saw who ever tried to take a stand against it and seemed to legit have our best interest in mind was our First Sergeant, and our more experienced DIs just constantly insulted him and command never took his complaints seriously. Like I said, I'm mixed. A lot of the present restrictions I think are honestly way too stifling on DIs and the proper enforcement of good order and discipline and all of that shit. Still, some things (like what I listed above, which was just a few examples) felt completely arbitrary and without any good reason, and I still have yet to see any value in them. The part where they never let up especially hit hard, because you go 13 weeks telling yourself there will be some big revelation and you'll feel better and be a Marine and everything will be good but when you finish and realize it only gets [I]worse[/I] it will fuck with you. The whole series of events honestly left me fucked up emotionally, I couldn't even feel an emotion I was so shut down from it all (from trying to block any emotions so I wouldn't feel miserable, I guess) and I had to see a chaplain throughout MCT to finally get over it. But that's the other thing. I got over it. So did everyone I went with, even the guys who got fucked with more than me. We got over it and did our jobs, and those who dropped didn't turn around and blame bootcamp we just sucked it up and dealt with the shit, which is 99% of what you do in the Marines (and the military as a whole). You suck it the fuck up and you take it as best you can, which is where I think a lot of the anger comes from. The idea that 'I put up with twice as bad as you did, why the fuck do you get to go home?'
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191427]You can call it human rights violations all you want, and while you're not wrong, you also need to remember that people willingly signed those rights away to serve.[/QUOTE] I actually alluded to this earlier and was hoping for someone to expand on it. Do you actually sign waivers like this saying that recruits can legally be severely beaten by superior officers and treated this way? If that's true then I don't really have a leg to stand on. Yeah it sucks but you know what you're getting into.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51191432]I actually alluded to this earlier and was hoping for someone to expand on it. Do you actually sign waivers like this saying that recruits can legally be severely beaten by superior officers and treated this way? If that's true then I don't really have a leg to stand on. Yeah it sucks but you know what you're getting into.[/QUOTE] Technically speaking yes. If you look through the UCMJ there's nothing that makes any sort of mention to protect junior enlisted members of the military. There's laws on attacking commissioned and non-commissioned officers, but not jr. Enlisted. That's why if they do attack you they don't get charged with assault, they usually get dereliction of duty or article 134, both of which hold lesser penalties. Even then that's a more recent thing, up until the last 15-20 years if a higher up attacked you you were the one in the wrong. The UCMJ hasn't been properly updated in decades, Hell Sodomy was just removed only 4-5 years ago and you can still be jailed for adultery.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;51191079]sick burn but get back to me when you know what I'm actually talking about.[/QUOTE] Aren't you the guy that said people who were against being conscripted and forced into the military are cowards? [editline]12th October 2016[/editline] yes you are lmao
[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;51191429][b]*[/b] Encourage fighting. My DIs decided we weren't going to be smart or strong but we would fight and my platoon became known as the 'fight club'. We were constantly encouraged to beat the shit out of eachother, brawl, attack other platoons, and so on. Anyone who disagreed with our DIs or our platoon leadership got themselves beat the shit out of by squad leaders / our guide (recruits in leadership roles). We constantly got in full on brawls with other platoons, and anyone in the platoon who didn't want to assault other recruits was derided and shit on constantly. I was outcasted from the platoon until I started fighting at about week 10, and then I maintained respect and friendship by basically beating the shit out of anyone who insulted me. I didn't like it, and although I feel like Marines need to be able to fight, the constant fighting and threats of beating by other recruits just killed all team building and made the whole experience worse. [/QUOTE] Nothing instills teamwork and the idea of dying for your team in the thick of battle than intentionally instilling aggression and strife among everybody present. If I was in a firefight there'd be nobody I'd trust more with my life than the dude who I beat the shit out of on a whim during training. [editline]12th October 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191442]Technically speaking yes. If you look through the UCMJ there's nothing that makes any sort of mention to protect junior enlisted members of the military. There's laws on attacking commissioned and non-commissioned officers, but not jr. Enlisted. That's why if they do attack you they don't get charged with assault, they usually get dereliction of duty or article 134, both of which hold lesser penalties. Even then that's a more recent thing, up until the last 15-20 years if a higher up attacked you you were the one in the wrong. The UCMJ hasn't been properly updated in decades, Hell Sodomy was just removed only 4-5 years ago and you can still be jailed for adultery.[/QUOTE] That's actually all pretty interesting stuff. I guess I don't really have anything to say if the abuse is all legal and pre-agreed.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51191456]Nothing instills teamwork and the idea of dying for your team in the thick of battle than intentionally instilling aggression and strife among everybody present. If I was in a firefight there'd be nobody I'd trust more with my life than the dude who I beat the shit out of on a whim during training.[/QUOTE] I did. You beat the piss out of each other, then help each other up. You weren't fighting out of actual aggression towards one another, you were fighting out of pride and sport. I got my ass kicked by my guide, dude looks like Brock Lesnar with red hair, and we're great buddies. It's a different environment that you're in, one that seems upside down and backwards to outsiders looking it. All 88 of us in my platoon beat the snot out of each other and yelled at each other and stole from each other, but we took care of each other and we all became brothers. I stay in contact with a majority of whom who are still alive.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191472]I did. You beat the piss out of each other, then help each other up. You weren't fighting out of actual aggression towards one another, you were fighting out of pride and sport. I got my ass kicked by my guide, dude looks like Brock Lesnar with red hair, and we're great buddies. It's a different environment that you're in, one that seems upside down and backwards to outsiders looking it. All 88 of us in my platoon beat the snot out of each other and yelled at each other and stole from each other, but we took care of each other and we all became brothers. I stay in contact with a majority of whom who are still alive.[/QUOTE] Fair enough. It's just that from the outside looking in it sounds almost like they're intentionally trying to breed distrust and strife among recruits. That said it is true that in competitive sports boxers are the ones who tend to respect their opponents the most after a match according to some studies. Apparently fighting people like that can create very strong bonds.
There's so much to be said here, and no, not in his defence.
The main issue is that recruiters would walk in every high school classroom at the end of the year and sugarcoat EVERYTHING. Then when those kids sign up they realize it isn't anything they expected.
[QUOTE=Jouska;51191500]The main issue is that recruiters would walk in every high school classroom at the end of the year and sugarcoat EVERYTHING. Then when those kids sign up they realize it isn't anything they expected.[/QUOTE] My recruiter told me I would get to fix and fly in V-22s and here I am fixing tow tractors on the flightline. Yeah, fuck them.
[QUOTE=dasduden;51191508]My recruiter told me I would get to fix and fly in V-22s and here I am fixing tow tractors on the flightline. Yeah, fuck them.[/QUOTE] My recruiter said I would get to shoot things with Marines but here I am, staring at Microsoft Office suite for half the day.
you sign up for the military willing to die, I don't understand how this SJW bullshit is fucking shit up in that area of life too like what
[QUOTE=hijacker;51191514]you sign up for the military willing to die, I don't understand how this SJW bullshit is fucking shit up in that area of life too like what[/QUOTE] What do sjws have to do with any of this.
[QUOTE=dasduden;51191508]My recruiter told me I would get to fix and fly in V-22s and here I am fixing tow tractors on the flightline. Yeah, fuck them.[/QUOTE] It would appear I'm the only one who got the job he enlisted for.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191527]It would appear I'm the only one who got the job he enlisted for.[/QUOTE] I got what I enlisted for. [sp]Maybe because I'm a reservist...[/sp]
[QUOTE=dasduden;51191508]My recruiter told me I would get to fix and fly in V-22s and here I am fixing tow tractors on the flightline. Yeah, fuck them.[/QUOTE] Mines told me that if I join I would be mostly be camping and doing fun exercises in austrailia or whatever and that the government will pay for my college and other shit like that. Made me pick a few flashcards with words like "adventure" "indepence(lol)" and had me put them in order what was more important to me then the guy just goes on how surprisely my exact order is EXACTLY like how the military is like and how I can get all those things I wanted if I enlist. They don't really talk about how it really is.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191472]I did. You beat the piss out of each other, then help each other up. You weren't fighting out of actual aggression towards one another, you were fighting out of pride and sport. I got my ass kicked by my guide, dude looks like Brock Lesnar with red hair, and we're great buddies. It's a different environment that you're in, one that seems upside down and backwards to outsiders looking it. All 88 of us in my platoon beat the snot out of each other and yelled at each other and stole from each other, but we took care of each other and we all became brothers. I stay in contact with a majority of whom who are still alive.[/QUOTE] I'd agree, I really would, if that's how it worked in boot for my platoon. That's how it worked in MCT and in my job training, but in boot, the fact our DIs intentionally pit us against each other and that we were always fighting meant we never had the sense of comraderie. It was never fighting and becoming friends after, it was fight, win, call the other guy a little bitch, and that guy ends up getting the shit kicked out of him or insulted until he can pass it onto someone else. And then he's ignored until he got the shit kicked out of him again.
Not saying being a marine is bad or anything.. This was meant as an edit.
[QUOTE=hijacker;51191514]you sign up for the military willing to die, I don't understand how this SJW bullshit is fucking shit up in that area of life too like what[/QUOTE] I'd like to know how the likes of Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn have anything to do with a kid getting thrown into a fucking dryer simply because he was of Islamic faith. Or getting forced to slide around in a squad bay soaked in bleach.
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51191535]I got what I enlisted for. [sp]Maybe because I'm a reservist...[/sp][/QUOTE] Fun fact me and RG4 went to job school together and were friends and only realized who each other were like a week ago and I'm still angry that I know someone else on Facepunch
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191296]What a fuck I got kicked in the head, punched in the gut, forced to drink water until I threw up my lunch, sweared at, embarrassed, and whatever else have you. And you know what? That's what I wanted, that's what I expected. You join the Marines with the expectation that youre able to kill people, and you have to deal with all the shit that entails. If you can't handle a punch to the gut you sure as shit won't handle combat, and you don't need to be in the Corps. This isn't call of duty.[/QUOTE] Aint u a tough lil cookie
[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;51191545]Fun fact me and RG4 went to job school together and were friends and only realized who each other were like a week ago and I'm still angry that I know someone else on Facepunch[/QUOTE] Shut up, we're not to speak of us knowing each other like this. [sp]I miss you brah[/sp]
[QUOTE=RG4ORDR;51191556]Shut up, we're not to speak of us knowing each other like this. [sp]I miss you brah[/sp][/QUOTE] You're right. Back to pretending I have no idea who you are. [sp]me too bb[/sp]
get a room you two
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