Former Marine Describes Violent Hazing and the Lies That Covered It Up
158 replies, posted
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191660]I remember doing ptad with recruiters. I called over 2,000 people in 2 weeks and got 3 to come in. It was nuts, I'd rather be a DI than a recruiter. Rather be MSG than either of those two though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah same. Recruiters assistance was ridiculous. I got to feel that shit first hand when they dropped their needs on us and had me do shit like call literally every one of my friends and family on my phone and facebook (great way to talk to people I don't like for the first time in a yeer) and walk into random buildings like a fucking creep trying to recruit people just because they needed like twenty kids to join for specific roles that month and one in every thousand even entertained going in and most of those guys got knocked out by the ridiculous standards they push at MEPs.
[editline]12th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;51191658]I would like to see some studies on if getting shoved in a dryer, severely beaten by platoon mates, bleach burns, and general torture actually makes a person a better soldier or if it's just sadism under the guise of "becoming a better soldier."
Do other countries' militaries do shit like this? I mean some of the shit here sounds worse than just getting shot and dying. Positive reinforcement is a much better way to instill confidence, trust, fortitude and self-esteem than abuse, and coping strategies seem like something that soldiers should be taught rather than expected to learn after getting their shit kicked in. Trauma is trauma, psychological effects of stuff like this could cause PTSD, anger issues, blunted affect, lack of empathy, major depression, etc. and that could lead to an increase of war crimes in the field or suicides. I don't understand how people just ignore and downplay how terrible this stuff is unless they're traumatized themselves and have basically Stockholm Syndrome from the abuse, rationalizing what they suffered as a good thing rather than something terrible.
Basically there's got to be better ways of making efficient soldiers then torturing them. And the way recruiters sugar coat the military is disgusting, because even if this kind of abuse is the best method to make soldiers they're convincing people who won't be able to cope to join under the guise of free college, benefits, etc. and desperate people will take up that offer.[/QUOTE]
I've heard similar stories in a lot of countries militaries. Russia of course, but Royal Marines I've heard is a haze fest, Italian military I was told by an Italian, and I've heard some stories from Germans in the Bundsehwr. I don't know for sure of course since none of that was 1st hand.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191640]While some recruiters straight up lie to you, at the end of the day they're sales people. Do you think you'd sign up if the first thing they told you was "hey man, wanna join the Marines and watch your friends die?" Of course you wouldn't.
There are a lot of benefits, perks, and opportunities in the military. There's no lying anywhere on that, and honest recruiters will tell you so. They don't tell you what you're really in for, but the paperwork you sign does. It's you're own damn fault if you sign it without reading it.[/QUOTE]
You need to remember that our current educational system doesn't prepare young people for the real world at all. The last year of high school is mostly just them being told that they have to go to college or I will never get a job. They are used to raising their hand and needing permission to go to the bathroom then they suddenly got to make life changing choices that will effect the next 4-8 years of their lives. Then some guy comes in with all the answers and uses social engineering to convince kids that this is the best choice for them. Can you really blame them?
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;51191658]I would like to see some studies on if getting shoved in a dryer, severely beaten by platoon mates, bleach burns, and general torture actually makes a person a better soldier or if it's just sadism under the guise of "becoming a better soldier."
Do other countries' militaries do shit like this? I mean some of the shit here sounds worse than just getting shot and dying. Positive reinforcement is a much better way to instill confidence, trust, fortitude and self-esteem than abuse, and coping strategies seem like something that soldiers should be taught rather than expected to learn after getting their shit kicked in. Trauma is trauma, psychological effects of stuff like this could cause PTSD, anger issues, blunted affect, lack of empathy, major depression, etc. and that could lead to an increase of war crimes in the field or suicides. I don't understand how people just ignore and downplay how terrible this stuff is unless they're traumatized themselves and have basically Stockholm Syndrome from the abuse, rationalizing what they suffered as a good thing rather than something terrible.
Basically there's got to be better ways of making efficient soldiers then torturing them. And the way recruiters sugar coat the military is disgusting, because even if this kind of abuse is the best method to make soldiers they're convincing people who won't be able to cope to join under the guise of free college, benefits, etc. and desperate people will take up that offer.[/QUOTE]
Go be a Spetsnaz. Let me know how that cakewalk goes for you.
[QUOTE=hijacker;51191677]Go be a Spetsnaz. Let me know how that cakewalk goes for you.[/QUOTE]
Thankfully he doesn't want to be Spetsnaz, nobody joining the Marines wants to be Spetsnaz, and nobody in the west goes through the ridiculous bullshit the Spetsnaz has to?
[QUOTE=Jouska;51191676]You need to remember that our current educational system doesn't prepare young people for the real world at all. The last year of high school is mostly just them being told that they have to go to college or I will never get a job. They are used to raising their hand and needing permission to go to the bathroom then they suddenly got to make life changing choices that will effect the next 4-8 years of their lives. Then some guy comes in with all the answers and uses social engineering to convince kids that this is the best choice for them. Can you really blame them?[/QUOTE]
Can I blame them for not having the common sense to read what's given to them? Yes, yes I can. I enlisted at 18 and I read my contact front to back twice before I signed it, mostly because I wanted to know I was guaranteed the job I enlisted for but also because I know better than to just sign things people hand me. It's one thing to read it all and not be prepared for it, and another to not read it what so ever. A large majority of the time the kids who read it and weren't prepared dealt with it just fine.
did you order the code red
[QUOTE=hijacker;51191650]Why would you join in the heat of this climate? Unless you've got some sort of agenda to further, or you expect something like this to happen and you're just after that tricare and settlement money. Makes no sense to the rational of any sane person.[/QUOTE]
So now this is just a conspiracy that the marine just signed up so he can get some juicy settlement money?
Where did you get this info? Out of your sweaty asshole?
[QUOTE=hijacker;51191590]Since they're the primary catalyst for all this BS, "touchy feelie awareness" bullshit we're all subjected to on a daily basis, they have everything to do with it. You can't pick and choose little hairs for your argument dude, acknowledge the whole spectrum or don't argue at all.[/QUOTE]
im sorry but this has to be one of the dumbest fucking posts i have ever laid my eyes on.
do you think about what you're writing or does it go straight from your asshole to your keyboard?
explain to me how assault of this magnitude can just be chalked up to identity politics. you can't. i'm baffled.
[editline]12th October 2016[/editline]
you seem like the kind of person who'd use the word "libtard"
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;51191513]My recruiter said I would get to shoot things with Marines but here I am, staring at Microsoft Office suite for half the day.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, you did kinda pick those orders. I seem to recall a post saying "I'm Applying for Subsurface IDC" like... Why? There are other, more worth while billets for Corpsman that come to mind. You didn't HAVE to pick a USNH in CMS-ID.
[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;51191519]I guess all you can do is try to spread the word how it's really like, I mean there have already been a few posts by at least two marines confirming how shitty it gets[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1250383"]We actually have a thread for that.[/URL]
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191527]It would appear I'm the only one who got the job he enlisted for.[/QUOTE]
No, I picked GM, and here I am moving Marine ordnance, working on Missile systems and [del]sucking E-7 dick for a good eval[/del] doing Volunteer work. My Recruiter was surprisingly straight forward, and out of the 3 other branches I went to he was the last.
[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51191571]red alert 2, i never knew what it meant, care to explain?[/QUOTE]
Can you explain the question you're asking more?
[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;51191682]Thankfully he doesn't want to be Spetsnaz, nobody joining the Marines wants to be Spetsnaz, and nobody in the west goes through the ridiculous bullshit the Spetsnaz has to?[/QUOTE]
Thankfully? And what the hell are you talking about? What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? He has no business discussing the topic, civilians that *think* they know what they're talking about when in reality they can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground end up seemingly alot like stupid fucks at the end of the day to us.
[editline]12th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=/dev/sda1;51191709]im sorry but this has to be one of the dumbest fucking posts i have ever laid my eyes on.
do you think about what you're writing or does it go straight from your asshole to your keyboard?
explain to me how assault of this magnitude can just be chalked up to identity politics. you can't. i'm baffled.
[editline]12th October 2016[/editline]
you seem like the kind of person who'd use the word "libtard"[/QUOTE]
What do you want a medal or something? Have some fucking actual argumentation other than slamming your tiny cock into the keyboard over and over again.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Calm down" - Novangel))[/highlight]
the passive aggressive smug sense of superiority that is exuding from many of these supposed military dudes is fucking hilarious gg lmfao
[QUOTE=soulharvester;51191166]If you can't get through boot camp without breaking down then why would they want to risk putting you in actual combat? They intentionally treat you like shit to weed out people who can't handle fighting, they're not being mean just because they're awful people.
They're preparing you to go into a war in which other people's lives rely on your performance, the last thing they need is people breaking down in the middle of a firefight.[/QUOTE]
There is a god damned difference between hardening people and conditioning them for war and outright abusing them, then covering it up - that's the problem. And just because others have had to go through it in the past doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue, either.
You want to know what happens when this kind of thing becomes routinely accepted and even encouraged when training soldiers? Refer to the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre"]Rape of Nanjing[/URL].
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;51191968]You want to know what happens when this kind of thing becomes routinely accepted and even encouraged when training soldiers? Refer to the [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre"]Rape of Nanjing[/URL].[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with them being abused in training and everything to do with Imperial Japan dehumanizing literally everyone and not giving a shit about what happened to other countries' civilians.
That's what happens when your propaganda machine is so effective that people from other countries aren't perceived as actual people to you, and your leadership doesn't care about what you do to them.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;51191199]Oh don't put fucking words in my mouth about actual combat vets. Are you really trying to liken what I said about hazing in boot camp to no shit combat? Apples and oranges dude. Those who come back from that shit have 100x more reasons to be messed up than this kid.
[editline]12th October 2016[/editline]
imagine sending this dude into combat as a rifleman, just imagine.[/QUOTE]
You shouldn't be fearing attack from your leaders or brothers in arms, you should have confidence in their ability to back you up and work with you when things get tough.
Regardless of whether or not this kid is "weak" or whatever for not being able to handle it, it's flat-out illegal and some things (like being put into a dryer) can literally kill you so
[QUOTE=soulharvester;51191996]That has nothing to do with them being abused in training and everything to do with Imperial Japan dehumanizing literally everyone and not giving a shit about what happened to other countries' civilians.[/QUOTE]
Isn't this abuse dehumanising?
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191472]I did. You beat the piss out of each other, then help each other up. You weren't fighting out of actual aggression towards one another, you were fighting out of pride and sport. I got my ass kicked by my guide, dude looks like Brock Lesnar with red hair, and we're great buddies.
It's a different environment that you're in, one that seems upside down and backwards to outsiders looking it. All 88 of us in my platoon beat the snot out of each other and yelled at each other and stole from each other, but we took care of each other and we all became brothers. I stay in contact with a majority of whom who are still alive.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the Marine Corp should take inspiration from the ancient Thebans and start encouraging some lovin' instead of beatings. Might be a more fun time all around.
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;51192100]Isn't this abuse dehumanising?[/QUOTE]
As far as I'm aware our military doesn't intentionally dehumanize Civilians, which is what I was referring too. Nice bait and switch though. You don't spear infants because your drill instructor was a massive dick (Which is basically their job).
I never said that I agree with them actually putting them in mortal danger during training (such as the dryer incident), I took if for granted that obviously that's bullshit and shouldn't be happening. I will however defend the necessity in mentally breaking down recruits before they enter actual service. Our military has soldier-building down to a science, and weeding out those who can't handle it in boot camp is a part of that.
However the recruiters baiting people who aren't capable or ready to go through boot camp is super shitty and I think that practice should be changed somewhat so that people know exactly what they're getting into before they're already committed to it.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;51192165]As far as I'm aware our military doesn't intentionally dehumanize Civilians, which is what I was referring too. Nice bait and switch though. You don't spear infants because your drill instructor was a massive dick (Which is basically their job).
I never said that I agree with them actually putting them in mortal danger during training (such as the dryer incident), I took if for granted that obviously that's bullshit and shouldn't be happening. I will however defend the necessity in mentally breaking down recruits before they enter actual service. Our military has soldier-building down to a science, and weeding out those who can't handle it in boot camp is a part of that.
However the recruiters baiting people who aren't capable or ready to go through boot camp is super shitty and I think that practice should be changed somewhat so that people know exactly what they're getting into before they're already committed to it.[/QUOTE]
i understand military bullshit's no joke but good god this "marine" circlejerk is just so hilariously over the top from the clear perspective of an outsider
[QUOTE=soulharvester;51192165]As far as I'm aware our military doesn't intentionally dehumanize Civilians, which is what I was referring too. Nice bait and switch though. You don't spear infants because your drill instructor was a massive dick (Which is basically their job).
I never said that I agree with them actually putting them in mortal danger during training (such as the dryer incident), I took if for granted that obviously that's bullshit and shouldn't be happening. I will however defend the necessity in mentally breaking down recruits before they enter actual service. Our military has soldier-building down to a science, and weeding out those who can't handle it in boot camp is a part of that.
However the recruiters baiting people who aren't capable or ready to go through boot camp is super shitty and I think that practice should be changed somewhat so that people know exactly what they're getting into before they're already committed to it.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't trying to bait and switch, I'm aware of the difference between training for the USMC and IJA. Look, I get your point but that still doesn't justify some extents of abuse that goes on during hazing. Covering it up is not acceptable either,
I agree though that recruiters shouldn't be going to such shitty tactics in an effort to draw in as many people in as they can.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;51192165]Our military has soldier-building down to a science[/QUOTE]
It's really not a science. It's a tradition passed down through experience, not something that's been objectively determined as the most effective method of training.
I mean, it seems to work well enough. But if you look on the civilian side, organizations like the CIA, FBI, and FAMS seem to produce effective officers without that sort of hazing and abuse. They may not be soldiers, but they're trained to handle high-stress situations (including combat), follow orders, and work as a team. It's entirely possible that our military produces effective soldiers [i]in spite of[/i] abusive techniques, not because of it, and that there are better ways to get the same results.
I'm not saying training ought to be kind and gentle but if you've got recruits committing suicide over how they're treated in training, then the techniques used deserve scrutiny and require more justification than 'this is the way we've always done it'.
Those triple letter agencies perform extremely different roles and none of them would see the kind of combat you face on a battlefield under normal operation.
They're more akin to police than soldiers, and their training reflects that. SWAT would probably come closest and even then it's assumed that they have a huge technological and training advantage over anyone they'll encounter. And get to go home at the end of a long day.
Soldiers are being trained to hold out in the middle of no where, with constant intense fighting, sustain heavy casualties, be starved and denied sleep, and still persevere in their duties Despite knowing that ultimately they and their friends are disposable pawns in some higher-up's tactical arsenal.
We've been pretty lucky so far that we haven't had to engage a comparable force to our own in decades, but they have to be prepared for the day that we do.
Fighting insurgents and islamists is shitty and tedious but at the very least we get to engage them on our own terms, with a massive tech advantage.
I would guess the main question lies in where do you draw the line between abuse necessary to toughen them up and just plain damaging abuse.
[QUOTE=Ta16;51191727][b]To be fair, you did kinda pick those orders. I seem to recall a post saying "I'm Applying for Subsurface IDC" like... Why? There are other, more worth while billets for Corpsman that come to mind. You didn't HAVE to pick a USNH in CMS-ID.[/b]
[URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1250383"]We actually have a thread for that.[/URL]
No, I picked GM, and here I am moving Marine ordnance, working on Missile systems and [del]sucking E-7 dick for a good eval[/del] doing Volunteer work. My Recruiter was surprisingly straight forward, and out of the 3 other branches I went to he was the last.
Can you explain the question you're asking more?[/QUOTE]i'm not really complaining, only saying it in jest. I'm okay with staring at Microsoft Word for the most part since I'm trying to orient to a more administrative/leadership oriented track, but for the record I didn't have a choice. My NEC is super limited on Sea duty and I only had a choice between 3 shore billets (only shore) on CMS-ID.
[QUOTE=Anderan;51192307]I would guess the main question lies in where do you draw the line between abuse necessary to toughen them up and just plain damaging abuse.[/QUOTE]
Yelling, swearing, corrective PT, the usual fuck-fuck games and the occasional "he fell down the stairs, Drill Sar'nt, I dunno what he's talking about" where it's needed all seem to work. Placing recruits in life-threatening danger or singling them out for punishment because of their race, religion etc. has no place in a modern fighting force.
We're not the Soviets, we don't do that shit here.
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;51192100]Isn't this abuse dehumanising?[/QUOTE]
That's part of the point. Contrary to popular belief and the interwebs, killing other people takes effort and will and leaves a giant mess behind, hence the process of weeding out anyone whom cannot put up with the stress.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;51191296]What a fuck
I got kicked in the head, punched in the gut, forced to drink water until I threw up my lunch, sweared at, embarrassed, and whatever else have you. And you know what? That's what I wanted, that's what I expected.
You join the Marines with the expectation that youre able to kill people, and you have to deal with all the shit that entails. If you can't handle a punch to the gut you sure as shit won't handle combat, and you don't need to be in the Corps. This isn't call of duty.[/QUOTE]
I'm not a military guy, so who gives a shit what I'm saying
I know you're going to be trained to fight, and kill, but is that really how things should be? Abuse to harden you up?
I know there's a reason for hazing, and it creates a stronger bond between members who under go the same events and experiences but is getting beat and abused really the best way for our military men and women to treat each other when training for combat? I'm just asking
[editline]12th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=catbarf;51192224]It's really not a science. It's a tradition passed down through experience, not something that's been objectively determined as the most effective method of training.
I mean, it seems to work well enough. But if you look on the civilian side, organizations like the CIA, FBI, and FAMS seem to produce effective officers without that sort of hazing and abuse. They may not be soldiers, but they're trained to handle high-stress situations (including combat), follow orders, and work as a team. It's entirely possible that our military produces effective soldiers [i]in spite of[/i] abusive techniques, not because of it, and that there are better ways to get the same results.
I'm not saying training ought to be kind and gentle but if you've got recruits committing suicide over how they're treated in training, then the techniques used deserve scrutiny and require more justification than 'this is the way we've always done it'.[/QUOTE]
This is basically my question minus the actual question part of it.
[QUOTE=hijacker;51191866]Thankfully? And what the hell are you talking about? What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? He has no business discussing the topic, civilians that *think* they know what they're talking about when in reality they can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground end up seemingly alot like stupid fucks at the end of the day to us.
[editline]12th October 2016[/editline]
What do you want a medal or something? Have some fucking actual argumentation other than slamming your tiny cock into the keyboard over and over again.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Calm down" - Novangel))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
haha i literally asked you to explain your argument and you just blew up
[QUOTE=/dev/sda1;51195776]haha i literally asked you to explain your argument and you just blew up[/QUOTE]
His training prepared him to always be calm and collected, as you see.
Hazing has its place, but its a fine line. The military has gotten too soften, when I first joined I was glad boot camp wasnt the way it use to be, because getting beaten all day sounds shitty. Once i finished job training and got to my first command, i would say I technically got hazed, as did other people, and the people before me and after me. Do i see it as hazing? no not really, but if thats what big navy calls it, i guess it was. Will i ever do anything about it? no. Was it right? maybe not, i still dont really like the individuals who treat new corpsman the way they systematically break people. Does it serve a purpose? fuck yeah. I may not like them for it, but it made me incredibly better at my job. Because when someone elses life or limb depends on you, and fellow team members, you cant have anyone in there with reservations. Shit ive learned that a good 15 or so times from being in a military operating room. Same applies to the civilian world, our civilian counter parts also have a systemic way of weeding the do(er)s and donts out of the system.
Did this guy finish boot? I'd take all the hazing in the world if I could have finished, but I was forced out because of hep c. I had a D.I named Sgt Valdez who was a kill hat. He was a angry little man.
And with some of you saying "if they ddnt finish boot they aint shit" please remember that it's not always a choice. Like me, I had 1 week left, the cruicable and then I was done, but on the last day of the 2nd to last week I was told I was sick and that I was going home.
And side note
While I do agree with Ben and Uncle whom are two fpers that I have major respect for and keep in my thoughts and "prayers"
I do not agree that hazing is getting anyone combat ready. Hazing does help you toughen up, but there's a difference between hazing and combat.
Hazing in boot you feel you can't do nothing about it and you just gotta bend over and hope they don't slide that last 5inches in.
Combat you atleast have enough freedom to do something about it, to fight back or something.
That's how I feel about it. Hazing isn't something that should be done away with, but it shouldn't be seen as a way to prepare you for combat.
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