[BREAKING] Its happening. Grand jury has made a decision about Ferguson.
2,211 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Code3Response;46573852]MO Governor just finished his press conference.
In short, law enforcement is putting their foot down tonight. Much more national guard and officers will be in the city.
He would not detail operational details. Some reporter asked a dumbass question about whether the guardsmen were MPs or not.[/QUOTE]
That's not a dumbass question. There's a big difference between fully-armed Guardsmen and MPs.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46573791][B]Jewish people do not face anywhere near the same kind of conditions in this country that blacks do. Not now, nor ever. [/B]Even when prejudice against them was fashionable, which it hasn't been for a long time. As for French Canadians, I cannot comment, because I am not familiar. What are you trying to price with this? What, exactly, is the point that you want people to walk away with?[/QUOTE]
lmao, the jewish population fucking cratered during the middle ages
[quote]The Middle Ages were mainly a period of expulsions. In 1290, 16,000 Jews were expelled from England; in 1306, 100,000 from France; and in 1492, about 200,000 from Spain. Smaller but more frequent expulsions occurred in Germany, so that at the commencement of the 16th century only four great Jewish communities remained: Frankfurt, 2,000; Worms, 1,400; Prague, 10,000; and Vienna, 3,000 (Heinrich Grätz, Geschichte der Juden x. 29). It has been estimated that during the five centuries from 1000 to 1500, 380,000 Jews were killed during the persecutions, reducing the total number in the world to about 1,000,000. In the 16th and 17th centuries the main centers of Jewish population were in Poland and the Mediterranean countries, Spain excepted.[/quote]
meanwhile 300,000-400,000 black slaves came to the united states. considering the relative populations of the jews vs african slaves and the timescales involved, I think it's at least a reasonable comparison to make.
and before you make a remark about jews not being treated so badly in the USA, do note that they've had similar success in the old country as well as the new.
My point is that discrimination and privation - slavery, expulsions, genocide - do [I]not[/I] have the same effect on all populations, and to that extent they can't be considered universal explanations for the poor outcomes of blacks (or any other minority group that doesn't do well). the jews were discriminated against and do well, the french canadians (to anyone's knowledge) were treated the same and do badly.
[B]that black people historically were enslaved and then lived under an apartheid-like system is not sufficient to explain their situation.[/B]
For those just joining this shit show, Kurgan is a textbook racist who believes that black people are just natural born criminals:
[QUOTE=kurgan;46493908]The criminality hypothesis is 70% "Because the black IQ distribution is shifted a standard deviation to the left of the white distribution and this is mostly genetic in origin", 10% "Other partially-genetically-mediated non-IQ cognitive differences between blacks and whites", 20% nongenetic factors (including prejudice)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46573899]For those just joining this shit show, Kurgan is a textbook racist who believes that[B] black people are just natural born criminals[/B]:[/QUOTE]
i have never claimed that
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46573899]For those just joining this shit show, Kurgan is a textbook racist who believes that black people are just natural born criminals:[/QUOTE]
I'm not a believer in that sort of thing myself but announcing to everybody "Look at this racist" is really low and dishonest.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46573874][B]that black people historically were enslaved and then lived under an apartheid-like system is not sufficient to explain their situation.[/B][/QUOTE]
well of course, there will always be multiple factors in play. racism as an element of policy has diminished over time as new legislation has come into play, but it serves as an important factor in terms of social and cultural attitudes, and is an origin point for poverty that self-perpetuates.
what is important, then, is providing equal opportunity (in terms of education especially, where per-student funding is lower in black neighborhoods due to lower property values and thus lower revenues in property tax) and working to change cultural attitudes, through outreach and cooperation, and policy that mitigates the impacts that are disproportionately felt by the black community, like ending the war on drugs and mass incarceration.
[QUOTE=Deng;46573920]I'm not a believer in that sort of thing myself but announcing to everybody "Look at this racist" is really low and dishonest.[/QUOTE]
Hardly. It's relevant. He's attempting to weasel around the facts of the situation in order to promote a misguided agenda of hated and ignorance. It is well worth mentioning his motivations for that.
[QUOTE=Deng;46573920]I'm not a believer in that sort of thing myself but announcing to everybody "Look at this racist" is really low and dishonest.[/QUOTE]
Dishonest? It's true. The dude sounds like an old white man teacher from one of those Hollywood slave movies, where they throw in a school scene about teaching kids the "inherent mental disadvantage" black people have so the film can show the audience "how far we have come" or some shit.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46573949]Hardly. It's relevant. He's attempting to weasel around the facts of the situation in order to promote a misguided agenda of hated and ignorance. It is well worth mentioning his motivations for that.[/QUOTE]
Except it's also obvious you are just announcing "look everybody, my opponent in this argument is a racist". This is just to antagonize matters further and to bring in immature and petty name calling.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46573919]i have never claimed that[/QUOTE]
Blatant lie, and an easily disprovable one. You spent how many hours defending your criminality hypothesis in the KKK thread? When pressed to explain your hypothesis, this was your explanation.
[QUOTE=mikeyt493;46573958]Dishonest? It's true. The dude sounds like an old white man teacher from one of those Hollywood slave movies, where they throw in a school scene about teaching kids the "inherent mental disadvantage" black people have so the film can show the audience "how far we have come" or some shit.[/QUOTE]
studies have shown that typically black IQ scores are lower on average, but that's a discussion for academics to make; i don't feel qualified enough to touch the debate on how and why the gap arises, and it doesn't necessarily have many practical policy implications, and definitely doesn't justify discrimination.
as of yet, i haven't seen anyone make an effective case that this is a major factor in the life outcomes of blacks in the united states, however, since there are many variables at play and various theories and academic explanations for the differences in life outcomes between the races.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46573949]Hardly. It's relevant. He's attempting to weasel around the facts of the situation in order to promote a misguided agenda of hated and ignorance. It is well worth mentioning his motivations for that.[/QUOTE]
where have i expressed hatred at any point
if anything i believe that a proper acknowledgement of the biological facts of race will lead to better race relations. if you constantly advance the notion that this kind of explanation is inherently evil, then you'll only push discussion of it underground, to people that are already properly hateful. this means you give them a monopoly on the facts, and they can spin it however they like. when the truth of the situation finally becomes accepted (it inevitably will), everyone will be unprepared except for the neonazis, because they'll have years of accumulated propaganda based on facts. is that what you want to happen?
[editline]25th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46573991]Blatant lie, and an easily disprovable one. You spent how many hours defending your criminality hypothesis in the KKK thread? When pressed to explain your hypothesis, this was your explanation.[/QUOTE]
I made empirical claims that may be proved true or false (I obviously believe them to be true). They don't imply any kind of value judgment or emotional response. Keep [I]Is[/I] and [I]Ought[/I] separate.
[editline]25th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=joes33431;46574019]studies have shown that typically black IQ scores are lower on average, but that's a discussion for academics to make; i don't feel qualified enough to touch the debate on how and why the gap arises, and it[B] doesn't necessarily have many practical policy implications[/B], and definitely doesn't justify discrimination.[/quote]
this is where I respectfully disagree
(BDA, take notes: we can talk about policy (ought) independently from whatever causes the situation (is). they will [I]influence[/I] it, but we're not [I]bound[/I] by them)
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574022]where have i expressed hatred at any point
if anything i believe that a proper acknowledgement of the biological facts of race will lead to better race relations. if you constantly advance the notion that this kind of explanation is inherently evil, then you'll only push discussion of it underground, to people that are already properly hateful. this means you give them a monopoly on the facts, and they can spin it however they like. when the truth of the situation finally becomes accepted (it inevitably will), everyone will be unprepared except for the neonazis, because they'll have years of accumulated propaganda based on facts. is that what you want to happen?[/QUOTE]
i'm going to have to agree slightly with kurgan, here. most of what he's been posting has been about causation, i don't think he's ever advocated for a policy of discrimination in any thread.
while i can't necessarily say with 100% accuracy the legitimacy of genetic hypotheses for differences in life outcomes, it's worthy of academic examination and debate, and if differences [I]do[/I] exist, we need to be willing to face them before they're openly used to justify an agenda of discrimination in the political discourse.
[QUOTE=joes33431;46574019]studies have shown that typically black IQ scores are lower on average, but that's a discussion for academics to make; i don't feel qualified enough to touch the debate on how and why the gap arises, and it doesn't necessarily have many practical policy implications, and definitely doesn't justify discrimination.
as of yet, i haven't seen anyone make an effective case that this is a major factor in the life outcomes of blacks in the united states, however, since there are many variables at play and various theories and academic explanations for the differences in life outcomes between the races.[/QUOTE]
The subject of IQ tests really perplexes me. How do people create IQ tests? How do they make sure those tests are a fair to all who take them? Could a bias arise in IQ testing? Who is involved in the creation of IQ tests?
President to speak again about Ferguson. 5:35 Eastern.
[editline]25th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=axelord157;46574084]The subject of IQ tests really perplexes me. How do people create IQ tests? How do they make sure those tests are a fair to all who take them? Could a bias arise in IQ testing? Who is involved in the creation of IQ tests?[/QUOTE]
Anything dealing with the brain is subjective when reading them. Take the MMPI and tell me its not subjective after getting the results
What the hell is this thread about? Can i have link to the original news or something? All i see is legal stuff i don't understand in the OP :v:
[QUOTE=mikeyt493;46573958]Dishonest? It's true. The dude sounds like an old white man teacher from one of those Hollywood slave movies, where they throw in a school scene about teaching kids the "inherent mental disadvantage" black people have so the film can show the audience "how far we have come" or some shit.[/QUOTE]
Right but from what I can see he isn't telling us about being an asshole towards black people or not take their concerns or needs into account. Open and honest dialogue is something that's necessary when it comes to debating the touchy subject of race.
[QUOTE=DrogenViech;46574105]What the hell is this thread about? Can i have link to the original news or something? All i see is legal stuff i don't understand in the OP :v:[/QUOTE]
Watch the youtube video. It explains everything.
The fact kurgan is implying that blacks have ANY built-in disadvantage or 'its their fault' for where they are is just hilarious, racist, and completely nonsensical.
anyone who agrees with him is racist and ignorant, and pretty retarded. Stop.
[QUOTE=axelord157;46574084]The subject of IQ tests really perplexes me. How do people create IQ tests? How do they make sure those tests are a fair to all who take them? Could a bias arise in IQ testing? Who is involved in the creation of IQ tests?[/QUOTE]
those are all criticisms that have been brought up against those statistics. i have no idea whether or not those criticisms are legitimate; you'd have to read the literature and ask a professor.
like i said, i'm not prepared to defend or attack the results, because i'm just a teenager at a computer. there are too many intricacies and things that you need to learn and understand before you can even get involved in it, because in every online debate i've seen regarding the subject, it gets right down to nitty-gritty details. it's not my "fight", it's the "fight" of professors and scholars.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574022]this is where I respectfully disagree[/QUOTE]
well, what implications do you see?
i would imagine that working to control for all factors that stymie equal opportunity would largely in part help to reveal where the genetic differences lie.
stuff like improving equal access to quality education and working to remedy negative cultural attitudes, for example.
[QUOTE=zerothefallen;46574137]The fact kurgan is implying that blacks have ANY built-in disadvantage or 'its their fault' for where they are is just hilarious, racist, and completely nonsensical.
anyone who agrees with him is racist and ignorant, and pretty retarded. Stop.[/QUOTE]
while i fundamentally find the link between race and intelligence to be dubious, the discussion shouldn't be stymied with finger-waggles, because it is actually a highly debated and discussed topic in the field of academia.
Mike Brown's step-father is alleged to be going around screaming for people to burn everything down, and his mother apparently is being charged for attacking her mother-in-law with a pipe and robbing her.
This situation is a fucking mess, and a lot of people are going to end up in jail by the end.
[QUOTE=zerothefallen;46574137]The fact kurgan is implying that blacks have ANY built-in disadvantage or 'its their fault' for where they are is just hilarious, racist, and completely nonsensical.
anyone who agrees with him is racist and ignorant, and pretty retarded. Stop.[/QUOTE]
You realise that there's two people already debating this issue in this thread without resorting to calling each other retards right?
[QUOTE=Grimhound;46574150]Mike Brown's father is going around screaming for people to burn everything down, and his mother apparently is being charged for attacking her mother-in-law with a pipe and robbing her.
This situation is a fucking mess, and a lot of people are going to end up in jail by the end.[/QUOTE]
That sounds highly questionable considering how calm and collected they were earlier.
[QUOTE=Deng;46574172]You realise that there's two people already debating this issue in this thread without resorting to calling each other retards right?[/QUOTE]
You do realize that this argument shouldnt be happening regardless, right? It's fucking 2014, not 1963. We dont need to debate if 'these dumb niggers are actually niggers!'
It just shouldnt even be happening.
[QUOTE=axelord157;46574084]The subject of IQ tests really perplexes me. How do people create IQ tests? How do they make sure those tests are a fair to all who take them? Could a bias arise in IQ testing? Who is involved in the creation of IQ tests?[/QUOTE]
The history of IQ testing is actually super super interesting!
Creation of IQ tests: there's a lot of debate about the fine details, but one of the most counterintuitive results of the field of psychometrics is that it [I]doesn't really matter[/I]. That is, no matter what kind of cognitive test you devise, whether it be vocabulary, mathematics, pattern recognition, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draw-a-Person_test]or even drawing a stick figure[/url], it will, to some extent, measure an underlying factor of intelligence called [I]g[/I]. (Look up the "positive manifold"). You might think that this is really just a measure of wealth - wealthy people will have had better life experiences and so will have an advantage in all domains, but the universal positive correlations in performance hold even among people of identical socioeconomic status.
In fact, there have been many attempts to devise tests of intelligence that do not measure [I]g[/I], but they've all failed. For example, you may have heard of "EQ" or "Emotional Intelligence" - the bulk of the variation in EQ (I think 80% but don't quote me) can be explained by variation in [I]g[/I]. This also holds for e.g. Gardner's Multiple Intelligences model (to the extent that those scales are even predicatively valid).
Fairness: Cultural bias is a factor, and early IQ tests were rife with them. For example, tests that weight vocabulary heavily will disadvantage immigrant test-takers, purely because of the language barrier (although counterintuitively, the black/white gap in IQ is actually lower on the more "culturally-biased" tests, I have absolutely no idea why). The least culturally-biased tests are probably "Raven's Matrices", though they do present problems for peoples who have little experience with modern abstract representations of ideas (e.g. hunter gatherer tribes). Various statistical methods can be employed (e.g. confirming measurement invariance) to see whether the test results of people from one group can be meaningfully compared with the results from another - this is generally the case, with many caveats.
IQ tests are often named after their creators - Wechsler, Binet, Raven, and so on. They are usually research psychologists.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46574188]That sounds highly questionable considering how calm and collected they were earlier.[/QUOTE]
His step-father screamed "Burn this motherfucker down" followed by several "burn this bitch down"
Its on [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8eUsAoKIA#t=196"]video[/URL]
[QUOTE=zerothefallen;46574137]The fact kurgan is implying that blacks have ANY built-in disadvantage or 'its their fault' for where they are is just hilarious, racist, and completely nonsensical.
anyone who agrees with him is racist and ignorant, and pretty retarded. Stop.[/QUOTE]
ruling out an entire class of hypotheses because you think their implications might be ugly is a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralistic_fallacy]classical fallacy[/url] (it's also a distant cousin to teleological religious arguments)
[QUOTE=zerothefallen;46574211]You do realize that this argument shouldnt be happening regardless, right? It's fucking 2014, not 1963. We dont need to debate if 'these dumb niggers are actually niggers!'
It just shouldnt even be happening.[/QUOTE]
Well firstly they aren't even saying that. Secondly, shutting down a debate because it doesn't please you isn't a good idea to be honest.
I mean, if arguments can stand on their own, then they should be left to stand on their own. If an idea is obviously bad or outdated, then reasoned debate should be able to change peoples minds on the matter.
Who knows, maybe Kurgan may change his mind through such a method? Shouting down at people and forcing them out just leaves both sides with a bad taste in the mouth and nothing acheived.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46573874]
[B]that black people historically were enslaved and then lived under an apartheid-like system is not sufficient to explain their situation.[/B][/QUOTE]
yes it is lmao
Africans and other people of color came into america with literally nothing. No formal education, and no money while the whites were on a financial and social head start. Little progress was made due to the barbic attitudes people had towards black people, this limited their job selection and education. The Great Depression came along and really fucked up the middle class and especially the lower class, which the majority of blacks were a part of due to racial discrimination. This is the story for many minorities that came to America or were in America in the first place. Latino, Native-American, East-Asian, West Asian.
[QUOTE=zerothefallen;46574211]You do realize that this argument shouldnt be happening regardless, right? It's fucking 2014, not 1963. We dont need to debate if 'these dumb niggers are actually niggers!'
It just shouldnt even be happening.[/QUOTE]
you're simplifying things a bit too much; more than anything it's the nature vs nurture debate applied to the races; not just blacks and whites, but people from africa and the various subregions of asia.
not every debate about these differences is charged with racial hate or bias; it's true that many racists argue for their racism using statistical differences among the races, but not all people who argue that differences exist between the races are doing so for a racial agenda. rather, they may just be looking into academic questions about the things that make us different on a genetic level, a purely academic endeavor.
it's easy to jump to conclusions about people's motives in something that evokes the (understandable) passion associated with race relations, but doing so only hurts discussion that might prove valuable in a free and open world that values scientific inquiry.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.