[BREAKING] Its happening. Grand jury has made a decision about Ferguson.
2,211 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46574251]yes it is lmao
Africans and other people of color came into america with literally nothing. No formal education, and no money while the whites were on a financial and social head start. Little progress was made due to the barbic attitudes people had towards black people, this limited their job selection and education. The Great Depression came along and really fucked up the middle class and especially the lower class, which the majority of blacks were a part of due to racial discrimination. This is the story for many minorities that came to America or were in America in the first place. Latino, Native-American, East-Asian, West Asian.[/QUOTE]
i've already discussed this point, and compared the black situation to jews and french canadians. both of them do not fit the pattern - jews often arrived with nothing more than the clothes on their back and within a few generations rose to prominence in nearly every field they set their hearts to, while french canadians in the USA are under-represented among prestigious professions like doctors and lawyers despite nobody in the world noticing any kind of discrimination, least of all themselves.
historical discrimination is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for shitty socioeconomic conditions.
if people keep repeating the same canard without responding to the above facts then I'm just going to ignore them.
Racism will always exist.
[QUOTE=Wint3r;46574289]Racism will always exist.[/QUOTE]
especially when shit like this fuels it
[QUOTE=joes33431;46574146]well, what implications do you see?
i would imagine that working to control for all factors that stymie equal opportunity would largely in part help to reveal where the genetic differences lie.
stuff like improving equal access to quality education and working to remedy negative cultural attitudes, for example.[/QUOTE]
the main implications I see are that [I]equality of opportunity will not translate to equality of outcomes[/I]. for example, if some prestigious field or occupation is noticeably lacking in black people, sure it might be because of discrimination, but it might be because there just aren't that many black people intelligent enough to get that far in a meritocracy. discrimination should not be the default assumption. as a society we need to learn how to cope with this sort of thing without immediately using blunt instruments like quotas.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574348]discrimination should not be the default assumption.[/QUOTE]
lol
edit:
im going to work. Im just out. no amount of logic would get through this brick wall of ignorance.
[QUOTE=dbk21894;46572814]the evidence backs up Officer Wilson
conjecture and opinion are not evidence and people who don't know better should shut up
the family can always file an appeal
until then this case is closed everyone go home and stop rioting[/QUOTE]
This actually works out better for the family in the long run too, because now, if at some later date their side of the argument gets actual evidence, then it won't be double jeopardy to take it to trial.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46573311]lol do you think i came out of the womb believing what i do now
i'm familiar with the dominant narrative about racism because even in this sceptred isle i was taught it in school. i just rejected it[/QUOTE]
Did you seriously just say "I reject reality and substitute my own"?
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574285]i've already discussed this point, and compared the black situation to jews and french canadians. both of them do not fit the pattern - jews often arrived with nothing more than the clothes on their back and within a few generations rose to prominence in nearly every field they set their hearts to, while french canadians in the USA are under-represented among prestigious professions like doctors and lawyers despite nobody in the world noticing any kind of discrimination.
historical discrimination is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for shitty socioeconomic conditions.
if people keep repeating the same canard without responding to the above facts then I'm just going to ignore them.[/QUOTE]
jews weren't slaves in America
french canadians weren't slaves in America
ok lets do a little experiment to see if you're right
burn your house down
I want you to burn your house down, burn all your money, burn all your belongings. Cut all ties with your family and friends.
I want you to fly to Canada (i'll pay for the ticket) and I want you to wipe my ass vigorously for 10 years, no pay. After 10 years I want you to fuck off and find a 5 day week 6AM to 10PM job that pays $3 an hour. I'm going to find you in 20 years and we'll continue this debate after your findings.
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;46574369]Did you seriously just say "I reject reality and substitute my own"?[/QUOTE]
something close to that
it was a particularly autistic post and i regret posting it
one thing that does irritate me a bit is that the mass protests and such sprung up around this particular case and not around the case of [URL="http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/handcuffed-black-youth-shot-himself-death-says-coroner-n185016"]victor white III[/URL], who i feel it is much more obvious that he was murdered by police and the department worked to cover it up. like, there were some protests but nothing on the scale of ferguson.
[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;46573623]Can someone explain to me what "hands up, don't shoot" is?[/QUOTE]
It's what one of the 'eye witnesses', who was later proven to have not actually seen the incident happen, said that Brown was doing/saying at the time.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46574383]jews weren't slaves in America
french canadians weren't slaves in America
ok lets do a little experiment to see if you're right
burn your house down
I want you to burn your house down, burn all your money, burn all your belongings. Cut all ties with your family and friends.
I want you to fly to Canada (i'll pay for the ticket) and I want you to wipe my ass vigorously for 10 years, no pay. After 10 years I want you to fuck off and find a 5 day week 6AM to 10PM job that pays $3 an hour. I'm going to find you in 20 years and we'll continue this debate after your findings.[/QUOTE]
the point
your head
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46574188]That sounds highly questionable considering how calm and collected they were earlier.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8eUsAoKIA#t=196[/url]
Nope. He was.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574402]the point
your head[/QUOTE]
are you going to come to canada
i have irritable bowel syndrome and i need you to wipe my ass in the name of proving how ignorant you are
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574022]where have i expressed hatred at any point
if anything i believe that a proper acknowledgement of the biological facts of race will lead to better race relations. if you constantly advance the notion that this kind of explanation is inherently evil, then you'll only push discussion of it underground, to people that are already properly hateful. this means you give them a monopoly on the facts, and they can spin it however they like. when the truth of the situation finally becomes accepted (it inevitably will), everyone will be unprepared except for the neonazis, because they'll have years of accumulated propaganda based on facts. is that what you want to happen?
[editline]25th November 2014[/editline]
I made empirical claims that may be proved true or false (I obviously believe them to be true). They don't imply any kind of value judgment or emotional response. Keep [I]Is[/I] and [I]Ought[/I] separate.
[editline]25th November 2014[/editline]
this is where I respectfully disagree
(BDA, take notes: we can talk about policy (ought) independently from whatever causes the situation (is). they will [I]influence[/I] it, but we're not [I]bound[/I] by them)[/QUOTE]
You are clever, you are convincing, and you understand very well how to manipulate the flow of debate in order to discredit your opponents and promote your agenda. That's a gift, and a wonderful tool in the hands of a person who wishes to improve the world. However, it also makes you the most dangerous kind of person there is, because your application of that gift only motivates intolerance, disparity, and hatred. Despite all your intellectual trappings, and in spite of millenia of cultural and philosophical evolution, the crux of your position is the belief that certain races are genetically and intellectually inferior to others. You defend this belief with twisted pseudo-scientific bullshit, misunderstood and misrepresented histories, and blurred regurgitations of half-truths that sound just convincing enough to be taken seriously by those who might not know better.
It is this charisma, and these morally outrageous, but sweetly presented assertions that you are only promoting a peaceful acceptance of the "facts" of genetic inferiority of other races as a means to reach peace between races that makes you dangerous. Because, God Forbid, people might actually listen to you.
The only solace I take in the sparkle-covered filth that you are dishing out is the fact that your views, heinous as they are, are already archaic. There is no place in the modern world for them. So long as bold voices continue to call for true racial and cultural equality, you, and those who share your ideologies, are increasingly marginilized with every passing year. While I may not live to see the day that hatemongers such as yourself are finally too ashamed of yourselves to voice your antiquated vitriol, I take great comfort in my faith that you are on borrowed time, and pray to whatever aetherial forces might exist in the universe that your cleverly stated bullshittery will not make the impressions that you hope they will.
The president is about to speak.
Additionally, another press conference is about to happen too from the unified command
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46574427]You are clever, you are convincing, and you understand very well how to manipulate the flow of debate in order to discredit your opponents and promote your agenda. That's a gift, and a wonderful tool in the hands of a person who wishes to improve the world. However, it also makes you the most dangerous kind of person there is, because your application of that gift only promotes intolerance, disparity, and hatred. Despite all your intellectual trappings, and in spite of millenia of cultural and philosophical evolution, the crux of your position is the belief that certain races are genetically and intellectually inferior to others. You defend this belief with twisted pseudo-scientific bullshit, misunderstood and misrepresented histories, and blurred regurgitations of half-truths that sound just convincing enough to be taken seriously by those who might not know better.
It is this charisma, and these morally outrageous, but sweetly presented assertions that you are only promoting a peaceful acceptance of the "facts" of genetic inferiority of other races as a means to reach peace between races that makes you dangerous. Because, God Forbid, people might actually listen to you.
The only solace I take in the sparkle-covered filth that you are dishing out is the fact that your views, heinous as they are, are already archaic. There is no place in the modern world for them. So long as bold voices continue to call for true racial and cultural equality, you, and those who share your ideologies, are increasingly marginilized with every passing year. While I may not live to see the day that hatemongers such as yourself are finally too ashamed of yourselves to show your face, I take great comfort in my faith that you are on borrowed time, and pray to whatever aetherial forces might exist in the universe that your cleverly stated bullshittery will not make the impressions that you hope they will.[/QUOTE]
i've been called a lot of things but rarely "charismatic" lol
im just amateur guy who reads shit on the internet, if that makes you have such a crisis of faith that you spend half an hour writing an effortpost explaining why i'm SH's public enemy #1 then it says more about you than me.
i'm flattered that you think I'm the next hitler but really get some perspective.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574348]the main implications I see are that [I]equality of opportunity will not translate to equality of outcomes[/I]. for example, if some prestigious field or occupation is noticeably lacking in black people, sure it might be because of discrimination, but it might be because there just aren't that many black people intelligent enough to get that far in a meritocracy. discrimination should not be the default assumption. as a society we need to learn how to cope with this sort of thing without immediately using blunt instruments like quotas.[/QUOTE]
well, there are other factors than discrimination and genetics, that's a bit of a false dichotomy.
in the case of a prestigious position, they might be less likely to [I]seek[/I] that position for social and cultural factors outside of their control, or otherwise less likely to [I]attain[/I] that position because of educational and financial inequality.
[QUOTE=joes33431;46574458]well, there are other factors than discrimination and genetics, that's a bit of a false dichotomy.
in the case of a prestigious position, they might be less likely to [I]seek[/I] that position for social and cultural factors outside of their control, or otherwise less likely to [I]attain[/I] that position because of educational and financial inequality.[/QUOTE]
that's true, I didn't mean to imply that kind of dichotomy.
basically I think we're in agreement that the more facts there are on the table, the more accurate and effective any policy will be.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574454]i've been called a lot of things but rarely "charismatic" lol
im just amateur guy who reads shit on the internet, if that makes you have such a crisis of faith that you spend half an hour writing an effortpost explaining why i'm SH's public enemy #1 then it says more about you than me.
i'm flattered that you think I'm the next hitler but really get some perspective.[/QUOTE]
bda wrote that in like 30 seconds he's used to dealing with creeps and/or idiots
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;46574427]You are clever, you are convincing, and you understand very well how to manipulate the flow of debate in order to discredit your opponents and promote your agenda. That's a gift, and a wonderful tool in the hands of a person who wishes to improve the world. However, it also makes you the most dangerous kind of person there is, because your application of that gift only motivates intolerance, disparity, and hatred. Despite all your intellectual trappings, and in spite of millenia of cultural and philosophical evolution, the crux of your position is the belief that certain races are genetically and intellectually inferior to others. You defend this belief with twisted pseudo-scientific bullshit, misunderstood and misrepresented histories, and blurred regurgitations of half-truths that sound just convincing enough to be taken seriously by those who might not know better.
It is this charisma, and these morally outrageous, but sweetly presented assertions that you are only promoting a peaceful acceptance of the "facts" of genetic inferiority of other races as a means to reach peace between races that makes you dangerous. Because, God Forbid, people might actually listen to you.
The only solace I take in the sparkle-covered filth that you are dishing out is the fact that your views, heinous as they are, are already archaic. There is no place in the modern world for them. So long as bold voices continue to call for true racial and cultural equality, you, and those who share your ideologies, are increasingly marginilized with every passing year. While I may not live to see the day that hatemongers such as yourself are finally too ashamed of yourselves to voice your antiquated vitriol, I take great comfort in my faith that you are on borrowed time, and pray to whatever aetherial forces might exist in the universe that your cleverly stated bullshittery will not make the impressions that you hope they will.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck? You could just condense this whole post down into a single sentence along the lines of "I'm not going to debate with you, I'm just going to psychoanalyse you".
Come on, this is childish.
What makes it worse is that you accuse him of abusing his charisma to get a point across, when you are doing the exact same thing here with your flowery prose.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574348]the main implications I see are that [I]equality of opportunity will not translate to equality of outcomes[/I]. for example, if some prestigious field or occupation is noticeably lacking in black people, sure it might be because of discrimination, but it might be because there just aren't that many black people intelligent enough to get that far in a meritocracy. discrimination should not be the default assumption. as a society we need to learn how to cope with this sort of thing without immediately using blunt instruments like quotas.[/QUOTE]
You're trying to change something that has historically been causally linked to systemic oppression and racism. It's not a correlation that black people are disadvantaged due to their history in the US - it's fact. If a prestigious field is lacking in black people, you should probably consider that up until the last few decades, black people struggled to even go to college at the same proportional rate as white people. There are absolutely enough intelligent black people - there are just cultural and social expectations that hold them down. You are contributing to that by thinking that black people are less intelligent - if you had a black candidate with better scores than a white candidate, you'd probably pick the white candidate because you have an ingrained idea that black people are less intelligent and less capable. That is discrimination. It's not the default assumption - there are many cases where less capable black people are beaten by their white peers in an even competition - but it's an incredibly noticeable and realistic truth that you keep trying to turn into a correlation or an "assumption." It's neither. It's fact. Decades of sociological studies support this. The issues with crime in black communities aren't due to natural criminality, they're due to centuries of systemic oppression and a total lack of original culture.
I agree that quotas aren't the best way to get past the issue, but the very reason they exist is to sidestep people who would openly discriminate against blacks in the hiring process (like yourself). If quotas can pull some blacks out of the cycle of poverty and provide them with the opportunity to excel, they will contribute back a thousand times more, and their children and their children's children will be more likely to excel without quotas. It's ignorant to think that quotas are there because of racial sensitivity - it's there to try to help a population that we've systematically enslaved, mistreated, and pushed into ghettos for the entire history of the country.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574471]basically I think we're in agreement that the more facts there are on the table, the more accurate and effective any policy will be.[/QUOTE]
you're cherrypicking facts it doesn't take an expert internet debater to see this
I made some legit posts (the one where I pointed out how you were pulling facts without even looking into them) and you don't even acknowledge them. Others have pointed out some legit facts and you pretend they're not even there, yet you scream:
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574285]
if people keep repeating the same canard without responding to the above facts then I'm just going to ignore them.[/QUOTE]
this is irony
[QUOTE=.Isak.;46574504]You're trying to change something that has historically been causally linked to systemic oppression and racism. It's not a correlation that black people are disadvantaged due to their history in the US - it's fact. If a prestigious field is lacking in black people, you should probably consider that up until the last few decades, black people struggled to even go to college at the same proportional rate as white people. There are absolutely enough intelligent black people - there are just cultural and social expectations that hold them down. You are contributing to that by thinking that black people are less intelligent - [B]if you had a black candidate with better scores than a white candidate, you'd probably pick the white candidate because you have an ingrained idea that black people are less intelligent and less capable[/B]. That is discrimination. It's not the default assumption - there are many cases where less capable black people are beaten by their white peers in an even competition - but it's an incredibly noticeable and realistic truth that you keep trying to turn into a correlation or an "assumption." It's neither. It's fact. Decades of sociological studies support this. The issues with crime in black communities aren't due to natural criminality, they're due to centuries of systemic oppression and a total lack of original culture.
I agree that quotas aren't the best way to get past the issue, but the very reason they exist is to sidestep people who would openly discriminate against blacks in the hiring process (like yourself). If quotas can pull some blacks out of the cycle of poverty and provide them with the opportunity to excel, they will contribute back a thousand times more, and their children and their children's children will be more likely to excel without quotas. It's ignorant to think that quotas are there because of racial sensitivity - it's there to try to help a population that we've systematically enslaved, mistreated, and pushed into ghettos for the entire history of the country.[/QUOTE]
that's a bit overreaching - the differences in [I]average[/I] IQ scores do not suggest that there aren't high-scoring black individuals, but instead that the aggregate of blacks score lower, and whether or not the differences that exist are meaningful is yet to be proven (to me directly, at least). if you were selecting candidates for your company, you'd choose the one that contributes the most to your company, which would be the black guy with the higher IQ.
the residual sociological and psychological effects of racism, along with socioeconomic disadvantage, and other persistent cultural and social attitudes, are all factors that play largely into differences between life outcomes for the races. i myself do not dispute that. but from an academic standpoint, the role of IQ scores and race in terms of life outcomes is important to discuss, at least as a variable.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574471]that's true, I didn't mean to imply that kind of dichotomy.
basically I think we're in agreement that the more facts there are on the table, the more accurate and effective any policy will be.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of facts that should be addressed beyond discrimination, but natural criminality is not one of them. Most of these facts stem from the black peoples' history in the US, all of which stems from discrimination. Black people in the US do not have a historical culture to analyze beyond slavery, so the very identity of the black population in the US has stemmed from systemic oppression and discrimination. To imply that discrimination isn't the single most influential factor in the culture and behavior of black Americans today is intellectually dishonest - the only other factor outside of a history of discrimination that you can claim is biotruthism, and that's laughed out of any intellectual debate and only promoted by closet racists and conservative conspiracy sites.
[editline]25th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=joes33431;46574546]that's a bit overreaching - the differences in [I]average[/I] IQ scores do not suggest that there aren't high-scoring black individuals, but instead that the aggregate of blacks score lower, and whether or not the differences that exist are meaningful is yet to be proven (to me directly, at least). if you were selecting candidates for your company, you'd choose the one that contributes the most to your company, which would be the black guy with the higher IQ.
the residual sociological and psychological effects of racism, along with socioeconomic disadvantage, and other persistent cultural and social attitudes, are all factors that play largely into differences between life outcomes for the races. i myself do not dispute that. but from an academic standpoint, the role of IQ scores and race in terms of life outcomes is important to discuss, at least as a variable.[/QUOTE]
IQ hasn't been taken seriously as a measure of individual intelligence for over a decade now. You wouldn't pick the guy with the "higher IQ," because it doesn't mean shit on an individual level. Over an entire population? Sure - but then you have to consider [I]why black people have an average lower IQ level[/I], and it's not because they're naturally stupider. It's because they've been deprived of a proper education for 200+ years.
slow internet made me double post and won't let me edit, odd.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46574516]you're cherrypicking facts it doesn't take an expert internet debater to see this
I made some legit posts (the one where I pointed out how you were pulling facts without even looking into them) and you don't even acknowledge them. Others have pointed out some legit facts and you pretend they're not even there, yet you scream:
this is irony[/QUOTE]
there was only one legit post of yours that I didn't respond to, because I had addressed the gist of it in previous posts. i don't like repeating myself. it doesn't help when you make needlessly antagonistic posts like the one about your irritable bowel syndrome. if i wanted to read about your anal sagas i'd go to the gay chat thread - I notice you're a prolific poster there
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574566]there was only one legit post of yours that I didn't respond to, because I had addressed the gist of it in previous posts. i don't like repeating myself. it doesn't help when you make needlessly antagonistic posts like the one about your irritable bowel syndrome. if i wanted to read about your anal sagas i'd go to the gay chat thread - I notice you're a prolific poster there[/QUOTE]
~gasp~
Homophobia now?
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574566]there was only one legit post of yours that I didn't respond to, because I had addressed the gist of it in previous posts. i don't like repeating myself. it doesn't help when you make needlessly antagonistic posts like the one about your irritable bowel syndrome. if i wanted to read about your anal sagas i'd go to the gay chat thread - I notice you're a prolific poster there[/QUOTE]
You really seem to like pointing out logical fallacies to try to discount your opposition's points, and ad hominem isn't an exception. Especially homophobic ad hominem.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;46574551]There are plenty of facts that should be addressed beyond discrimination, but natural criminality is not one of them. Most of these facts stem from the black peoples' history in the US, all of which stems from discrimination. Black people in the US do not have a historical culture to analyze beyond slavery, so the very identity of the black population in the US has stemmed from systemic oppression and discrimination. To imply that discrimination isn't the single most influential factor in the culture and behavior of black Americans today is intellectually dishonest - the only other factor outside of a history of discrimination that you can claim is biotruthism, and that's laughed out of any intellectual debate and only promoted by closet racists and conservative conspiracy sites.[/quote]
that's kind of demeaning to blacks - 150 years of slavery and they're incapable of moving past it? don't they have some kind of agency, some kind of inner drive to create new things and define themselves beyond what their former masters thought of them? I certainly think so.
[quote]IQ hasn't been taken seriously as a measure of individual intelligence for over a decade now. You wouldn't pick the guy with the "higher IQ," because it doesn't mean shit on an individual level. Over an entire population? Sure - but then you have to consider [I]why black people have an average lower IQ level[/I], and it's not because they're naturally stupider. It's because they've been deprived of a proper education for 200+ years.[/QUOTE]
this is not true, IQ is one of the most robust and well-researched things to come out of the social sciences. it crops up in everything from studies of childhood nutrition interventions, drug safety trials, longitudinal twin studies, military aptitude exams, comparative economics, mental health, and so on.
[QUOTE=kurgan;46574566]there was only one legit post of yours that I didn't respond to, because I had addressed the gist of it in previous posts. i don't like repeating myself. it doesn't help when you make needlessly antagonistic posts like the one about your irritable bowel syndrome. if i wanted to read about your anal sagas i'd go to the gay chat thread - I notice you're a prolific poster there[/QUOTE]
yes i talk about my irritable bowel syndrome there all the time you should come visit sometimes, we're all scat fetishests
[QUOTE=.Isak.;46574587]You really seem to like pointing out logical fallacies to try to discount your opposition's points, and ad hominem isn't an exception. Especially homophobic ad hominem.[/QUOTE]
i've responded politely to people that engaged me in proper arguments, roflburger instead made a series of frankly confusing comments about wanting me to lick his anus, I don't see why I should respond seriously to him.
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