#Calexit Californians want to exit the U.S. after Trump’s presidential win
217 replies, posted
Maybe Donald will go ahead and build a wall around California, it's win-win! :v:
[QUOTE=paul simon;51345664]Sounds like it would be a good thing in regards to becoming a more developed country with proper healthcare and such.
Too bad the rest of the US would hate them for it.[/QUOTE]
lol no
If they exit the U.S. you just doomed about 1/3 of the population of the state.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51345664]Sounds like it would be a good thing in regards to becoming a more developed country with proper healthcare and such.
Too bad the rest of the US would hate them for it.[/QUOTE]
California would turn into a massive shithole if it actually managed to leave the US. Everything would turn into for-profit and they'd try to tax everyone into economic slavery.
It'd be Zimbabwe 2.0
Go ahead USA, tear yourself apart.
You are really making it easy for mr. Putin.
[QUOTE=Sir_takeslot;51345679]California would turn into a massive shithole if it actually managed to leave the US. Everything would turn into for-profit and they'd try to tax everyone into economic slavery.
It'd be Zimbabwe 2.0[/QUOTE]
I don't get this at all. Why exactly can't it just work?
I know about many countries outside of the US that work perfectly fine, why would Cali not be able to?
I'm from California, and this is a bad idea.
Last time someone legitametly asked if they could leave the Union over an election they disagreed with, the awnser was a resounding no.
No, and the lives of 600,000 Americans.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51345662]Going to preface that I don't actually know that much about California, but knowing that they're a huge economy, have a lot of people, and give more money in tax than they take is grounds enough to believe that a secession movement would actually be able to start somewhat. I am also going to assume that any secession they do will be through some kind of democratic means, at least initially, because military force is obviously not going to work.
You could compare to Scotland. I doubt that it was Scotland's intention to complete cut off all trade ties to the rest of Britain if it had successfully seceded. Rather, enough of them felt unfairly shackled by Britain's laws on them that they thought succession would have been an overall improvement.
Going on the natural resource thing, if we suppose that the US would be worse off with California leaving due to the deficit in tax money that it would make, I suppose you have a point that the US would make biased trade deals because they knew they could get away with it, but the US as a whole isn't in terribly great financial straits, and I don't think it's too big a stretch to assume that they would accept California money for natural resources.
The fact that you mention the US being a nuclear superpower is a little weird to me. Are you trying to imply that California would be nuked for having the gall to attempt to secede? That's a little crazy. As is the mention of a civil war. I don't think that American citizens would literally kill their former countrymen, because that would do a hell of a lot more damage than any Californian secession ever could.
To me, it seems that despite California being immensely valuable, they are forced to remain in a country with a president they did not agree with and as a result, the residents feel powerless and taken advantage of. Pretty understandable, in my opinion.
Also, on the topic of Texas secession, I wouldn't support it, but I don't think I would condemn it either. If they had enough democratic backing to legitimately want to secede, then they should be able to.[/QUOTE]
The major economy is primarily driven by imports. A secession would grind that to a halt. Everything else after that would be an elaborate failure cascade. Thank you for at least being up front about not knowing too much about California (no sarcasm).
Unlike Scotland and the UK, there is an established precedence (established by the bloodiest war in American history) to the idea of secession: it's not allowed. The civil war started in earnest when a seizure of federal property (as in, [i]not state property[/i], please read: Ft. Sumter) occurred in seceded states. What's going to happen to all of that federal property in California?
Combining this point with my inclusion of the US being a nuclear superpower: influence. Nuclear superpowers do business by influence. The entire Cold War was a contest of influence between the then USSR and the United States in securing safe harbors, and places to do business. This is how the geopolitical world works. I would suggest giving "Bomb Power" by Garry Wills a read, if you would like. Essentially, this new nation would have all of the drawbacks of still being a state with none of the perks of being a nation. The Monroe doctrine made this an idea, and influence via nuclear weapons solidified it. I am not at all suggesting that we would ever use nuclear weapons at all, let alone on a former state that shared landmass with us. That is total, pure lunacy. Nuclear weapons are mainly used today for things other than explosions.
It is the United States that makes California immensely valuable, and the United States that provides a setting for its economy. A secession would eliminate all of said value.
In conclusion, the strength of the United States is that it is a UNION of UNITED States. As in, a state cannot simply secede for arbitrary reasons. Unless, of course, you like the idea of an entirely destabilized landmass of 48 independent countries all bickering and fighting with eachother nonstop. It simply doesn't work.
And if democracy at it's worst is giving us Donald Trump, democracy shouldn't also be about making even more incredibly foolish decisions. Direct democracy is considered archaic for a [i]very good reason[/i].
[QUOTE=paul simon;51345695]I don't get this at all. Why exactly can't it just work?
I know about many countries outside of the US that work perfectly fine, why would Cali not be able to?[/QUOTE]
1: There are to many military bases here in California. California holds a massive amount of naval bases for our access to the pacific sea.
2: LAX + All the shipping ports. Way to much comes through here. A lot of corporations would not be happy. No longer apart of the US, a lot of corporations would simply have to pull out.
3: California is far to dependent on other states, a lot of our energy and water comes from other states. We'd no longer be able to farm.
4: California has a good deal of corruption as is. Taxes and everything would get higher because of greed. Everything would become for-profit.
5: California is a large state. There is a lot of different cultures. San Diego, LA are completely different from the high desert and a lot more of the rural areas.
6: Some people just aren't going to want to leave. If you wanted to stay? You'd no longer be a US citizen. A lot of people have family in other states.
7: Unrest. People aren't going to want to leave. People would very likely fight this change. A lot of people are going to take advantage of this situation. Riot, Loot and other things. Not to mention other nations will take advantage of this and very likely try to put troops here. Through hostility or otherwise.
I could go on.
It would fuck not only california over, but it would fuck an immense amount of business men and other nations over. US included. It'd fuck its own people over. There is just no way what-so-ever that it would work.
This just shows how disconnect some of the bay-people are from the rest of the world.
Yeah, let's just throw up our hands and quit instead of actually trying fixing the problem at hand
Fracturing ourselves further won't help anything.
dont secede, just override federal authority with state authority.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51345695]I don't get this at all. Why exactly can't it just work?
I know about many countries outside of the US that work perfectly fine, why would Cali not be able to?[/QUOTE]
States are very interconnected which facilitates a better economy overall. Interstate Commerce Act and all that Jazz. You are ripping yourself forcefully out of that system, its terrible for everyone on both sides.
Like I alluded to earlier, when you join The United States, its a permanent thing. We fought an incredibly bloody civil war partially to preserve the Union. There is no method for leaving, period.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51345662]Going to preface that I don't actually know that much about California, but knowing that they're a huge economy, have a lot of people, and give more money in tax than they take is grounds enough to believe that a secession movement would actually be able to start somewhat. I am also going to assume that any secession they do will be through some kind of democratic means, at least initially, because military force is obviously not going to work.
You could compare to Scotland. I doubt that it was Scotland's intention to complete cut off all trade ties to the rest of Britain if it had successfully seceded. Rather, enough of them felt unfairly shackled by Britain's laws on them that they thought succession would have been an overall improvement.
Going on the natural resource thing, if we suppose that the US would be worse off with California leaving due to the deficit in tax money that it would make, I suppose you have a point that the US would make biased trade deals because they knew they could get away with it, but the US as a whole isn't in terribly great financial straits, and I don't think it's too big a stretch to assume that they would accept California money for natural resources.
The fact that you mention the US being a nuclear superpower is a little weird to me. Are you trying to imply that California would be nuked for having the gall to attempt to secede? That's a little crazy. As is the mention of a civil war. I don't think that American citizens would literally kill their former countrymen, because that would do a hell of a lot more damage than any Californian secession ever could.
To me, it seems that despite California being immensely valuable, they are forced to remain in a country with a president they did not agree with and as a result, the residents feel powerless and taken advantage of. Pretty understandable, in my opinion.
Also, on the topic of Texas secession, I wouldn't support it, but I don't think I would condemn it either. If they had enough democratic backing to legitimately want to secede, then they should be able to.[/QUOTE]
I think you're forgetting the major fact that in order for California to hypothetically secede from the Union they would have to go through the federal government and have an agreement reached OTHERWISE it is a decleration of war because as said several times now It is Illegal for a state to simply up and secede. So the idea that war would make the US look bad is an utter fallacy since any decleration of independance is a decleration of war against the Federal Government, and thus they have the legitimacy and right to restore order in the rebellious state. It doesnt really matter if i a plebecite they wanted independence because regardless of how "Democratic" it is the Californians seceding because they didn't get the candidate they want that is just as undemocratic.
[QUOTE=Sir_takeslot;51345725]1: There are to many military bases here in California. California holds a massive amount of naval bases for our access to the pacific sea.
2: LAX + All the shipping ports. Way to much comes through here. A lot of corporations would not be happy. No longer apart of the US, a lot of corporations would simply have to pull out.
3: California is far to dependent on other states, a lot of our energy and water comes from other states. We'd no longer be able to farm.
4: California has a good deal of corruption as is. Taxes and everything would get higher because of greed. Everything would become for-profit.
5: California is a large state. There is a lot of different cultures. San Diego, LA are completely different from the high desert and a lot more of the rural areas.
6: Some people just aren't going to want to leave. If you wanted to stay? You'd no longer be a US citizen. A lot of people have family in other states.
7: Unrest. People aren't going to want to leave. People would very likely fight this change. A lot of people are going to take advantage of this situation. Riot, Loot and other things. Not to mention other nations will take advantage of this and very likely try to put troops here. Through hostility or otherwise.
I could go on.
It would fuck not only california over, but it would fuck an immense amount of business men and other nations over. US included. It'd fuck its own people over. There is just no way what-so-ever that it would work.
This just shows how disconnect some of the bay-people are from the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
Alright, this was the answer i was looking for. Thanks.
The type of people actually calling for such a stupid idea probably couldn't run a functioning independent country in the first place.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51345536]Good thing California has a lot of money to pay for electricity and water.[/QUOTE]
You mean those [B]Federal[/B] Reserve Notes that belong to the United States government?
Cali won't have shit.
[editline]a[/editline]
They'd have to print their own currency, which would have a [I]garbage[/I] exchange rate as a new country.
As a Californian it's a pleasant pipe dream to be able to finally distant ourselves from a country that has places like Alabama and Florida, as well as having someone as cool as Jerry Brown be our leader, but it's not realistically possible and there's a very, very long list of reasons why it's not possible.
This is stupid
I'm from California and there would be literally nothing to benefit from this
If California alone leaves the US, it guarantees that the United States will [I]always[/I] have a Republican lead government and presidency. You guys really want to have a long border with a country full of warhawks?
On top of that, we just elected the most anti-trade president in the past 100+ years. You really think he would let Cali leave "without getting a good deal to the US", especially when we would still control your water?
Please don't.
[QUOTE=Fapplejack;51345777]As a Californian it's a pleasant pipe dream to be able to finally distant ourselves from a country that has places like Alabama and Florida, [B]as well as having someone as cool as Jerry Brown be our leader[/B], but it's not realistically possible and there's a very, very long list of reasons why it's not possible.[/QUOTE]
Please tell me this is some sick form of sarcasm. What has this idiot done for this state, now or back in the 80's?
This shouldn't even be a debate. NO state will be seceding from the United States. Does no one remember the Civil War??? The bloodiest war in ALL of American History? Seceding from the Union has since then been illegal, and one of the National Gaurds main purposes is to prevent secessions from happening again.
[QUOTE=Mr. J;51345801]This shouldn't even a be debate. NO state will be seceding from the United States. Does no one remember the Civil War??? The bloodiest war in ALL of American History? Seceding from the Union has since then been illegal, and one of the National Gaurds main purposes is to prevent secessions from happening again.[/QUOTE]
It shouldn't, and the idea that it even is being remotely considered is scary, but remember that reality has lately been proven to be far, far stranger than fiction.
For once I hope a secession happens.
After all there will be a bloodshed in a few years anyways no matter what, and California might save the USA alone.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51345864]For once I hope a secession happens.
After all there will be a bloodshed in a few years anyways no matter what, and California might save the USA alone.[/QUOTE]
In a few years anyway? What fortune teller do you go to?
all that needs to be said is this:
if any state actually manages to gain real momentum to leave the union, the rest of the union would definitely crush it early by quickly strategizing a roadmap of incentive vs punishment tradeoffs the further the attempt goes. each step of the way they will fight tooth and nail because the insoluble union is a core tenant of our governments founding/persisting ideology. so good luck getting any other state to ratify your secession.
at this point no state would be collectively willing to keep choosing the beatdown option because even if they succeeded the only accomplishment would be making themselves a small, frail country that alienated almost everyone they rely on (who are also geographical neighbors). this could only ever work if the US itself was very weak.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51345872]In a few years anyway? What fortune teller do you go to?[/QUOTE]
The fortune teller of living in fucking europe, that's where.
I'm hoping they take Illinois with them. Good riddance!
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;51345619]1. State government transfers over to the nation.
2. State militas at first take over military recruitment and training.
3. The state makes much more for the rest of the US, than is paid back to us. We could pay for a military at that point. Our population is the highest in the country. We would have a lot of soldiers.
4. Think Oregon, China, Mexico, Local Growers and people in California.
5. We could do this in many different ways, mostly by holding exports and imports hostage.
6. See 3.
7. See 5, also it would make the US look extremely bad to attack a country that voted democratically to leave the union. it's less than likely that we would make deals with the USA in order to facilitate this. attack us and they lose more than they'd gain, simply.
8.Desalination plants would be a lot easier.
9. through time, not rushing through it like the french did in their revolution.
10. We wouldn't.
11. We let them go wherever they want, not as citizens.
12. China, like always.[/QUOTE]
1. There is far more to a government than the state level, you should know this
2. What militia. Also, what is to stop martial law or a takeover?
3. California without the US would not make a profit. We only have lots of product go through us.
4. Why would the US buy Cali food if they could just starve out Cali of money
5. Give me one good reason trumpster wouldn't steamroll our asses for trying that
6. see 3
7. see 5. No, it wouldn't, it's illegal to secede; furthermore, if cali really IS that important, who give a shit about image?
8. Desalination is NOT easier. It takes enormous amounts of infrastructure, maintenance, and power. the amount of water Cali consumes is fucking astronomical.
9. Good luck not getting martial law before a constitution is strongarmed
10. We would have to, or the US could sanction our asses into a puddle of capris and chipotle.
11. With what trade laws, what trade leverage, what import/export infrastructure.
[editline]10th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51345886]The fortune teller of living in fucking europe, that's where.[/QUOTE]
you guys dont have your shit together either stop pretending
I wonder...
What few California National Guardsmen that would actually stick to the state
vs
The [I]entire[/I] US military, plus all those loyal Cali Guardsmen that won't run away.
Also for that one poster saying California will continue trading with China and other Asian nations - your shipping will be gone when you lose the protection of the US navy. Unless you plan to patrol the world's shipping lines with your little coast gua- oh wait that's federal too.
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